So Brexit now needs parliamentary approval?

[Diane]

....As for all the references to Hitler, this may seem like mass hysteria to someone living so far away, but there has been an atmosphere of racial tension building up, helped along no end by Nigel Farage. There are some tenuous parallels with the rise of the nazis, and I find it quite frightening to see how quickly incidences of racism seem to have increased......

 

It's happening here in Australia too - maybe also in America. Vilifying a group of people purely because of their religion, slowly and insiduously increasing police powers... You have only to look at the offshore concentration camps that the Australian government is able to run, shrouded in secrecy. I always wondered how Hitler was able to get away with it, but sadly it's becoming obvious that with the main stream media on your side (Murdoch both here and in the UK) a lot can happen that really should not.

[newjez]

Just another big assumption and guess work on your part. Followed up with some scare mongering.

I have close and many extended family and friends both in the north and southwest of the UK and the feeling from them is more up-beat with no real worries of looming, short, medium or long term disaster, hurdles to cross yes but they are not insurmountable.

Racism is and has always, to a lessor or greater degree, being a sad part of life and something the EU has not being able to eradicate either.

whenever I hear a foreign voice, I am tempted to ask how long they are staying for. Once or twice I've been tempted to tell them to **** off back to where they came from. And I consider myself to be moderate. Some to the right of me must be ropeable.

[Fisher1]

Out of interest if you move to Australia shortly, will you still feel that you will be entitled to comment about UK affairs?

 

we also have family and many friends in UK, plus property and who knows might move back one day, so although I haven't joined in much on this thread, I do also get a sense of what they are thinking and I should be allowed to contribute, it is a forum for every ones opinion isn't it?

 

Good point Ramot.

 

I have never said that people who live in Austrlia are not entitled to comment on UK affairs

 

What I have said is that it is not possible to experience these changes in the same way as someone who is actually living here. If I move to Australia shortly snd there follows a huge change in the political set up in the UK, then I will certainly feel entitled to comment, just as my daughter does. What I will not feel entitled to do is to ridicule the comments of other posters who are still actually living here. During the many years I previously lived outside the UK I questioned and discussed various developments but I always understood that as a non resident I could not possible be experiencing things in the same way.

 

To to be honest, it's probably not a difference I would normally have mentioned, but the poster I was addressing has been quite adamant in dismissing other posters comments as negative, scaremongering and inaccurate. In this context I think what I said was fair comment, sorry if you don't agree.

 

 

 

PS. If you re read my post I did say that my own views were also subjective.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Fisher1

[Paul1Perth]

It's happening here in Australia too - maybe also in America. Vilifying a group of people purely because of their religion, slowly and insiduously increasing police powers... You have only to look at the offshore concentration camps that the Australian government is able to run, shrouded in secrecy. I always wondered how Hitler was able to get away with it, but sadly it's becoming obvious that with the main stream media on your side (Murdoch both here and in the UK) a lot can happen that really should not.

Don't go overboard there Diane with reference to concentration camps. I don't see any parallels at all, I reckon Manus would be a heck of a lot better than there last months getting there and they could have been really unlucky, headed to Europe and the "jungle" in Calais. Or even worse disappeared somewhere in the med.

They don't get vilified for their religion either. Most people couldn't give a stuff about whatever religion you want to follow. It's more to do with the rhetoric from the leaders, suicide bombings and general dislike, unacceptance of a Western way of life.

Who knows Where they are from and what their allegiance would be once here. Too risky.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Paul1Perth

[kungfustu]

 

As for all the references to Hitler, this may seem like mass hysteria to someone living so far away, but there has been an atmosphere of racial tension building up, helped along no end by Nigel Farage. There are some tenuous parallels with the rise of the nazis, and I find it quite frightening to see how quickly incidences of racism seem to have increased.

.

 

This is complete rubbish.....it is "mass hysteria" and quite frankly a huge over exaggeration of our current situation......I live here....read the news every morning and evening.....I visit 4 or 5 households every day in my work......I chat to people and Brexit is high on the agenda.....none of what you say is mentioned.....in fact it is mostly positive regarding the UK getting out and looking forward not back.....I cannot recall any racial incidents apart from one or two in the first week or so of the Brexit vote......to me......things are just the same as they were on the 22nd June 2016.....its forums and discussions like these that breed the very hysteria you mentioned......if you are heading out to Oz then you clearly have already made up your mind......Brexit to you just reinforces your decision to move.......I have seen it all before.....I was one of them once......I look forward to reading your story in a few years once you have settled in Oz.........

Edited November 9, 2016 by kungfustu

[VERYSTORMY]

Good point Ramot.

 

I have never said that people who live in Austrlia are not entitled to comment on UK affairs

 

What I have said is that it is not possible to experience these changes in the same way as someone who is actually living here. If I move to Australia shortly snd there follows a huge change in the political set up in the UK, then I will certainly feel entitled to comment, just as my daughter does. What I will not feel entitled to do is to ridicule the comments of other posters who are still actually living here. During the many years I previously lived outside the UK I questioned and discussed various developments but I always understood that as a non resident I could not possible be experiencing things in the same way.

 

To to be honest, it's probably not a difference I would normally have mentioned, but the poster I was addressing has been quite adamant in dismissing other posters comments as negative, scaremongering and inaccurate. In this context I think what I said was fair comment, sorry if you don't agree.

 

 

 

PS. If you re read my post I did say that my own views were also subjective.

 

Well, I live in the UK and travel a huge amount around it for both work and pleasure - in the last few months I have spent time in areas as different as Leicester to the Highlands of Scotland. I was in Leeds this week. I have seen none of this racial tension you speak of. In fact, there is nothing much different, if anything.

[BacktoDemocracy]

There is also 'History in the making'

There is no 'history in the making' only a repeat of what has happened somewhere, sometime before.

[BacktoDemocracy]

This is complete rubbish.....it is "mass hysteria" and quite frankly a huge over exaggeration of our current situation......I live here....read the news every morning and evening.....I visit 4 or 5 households every day in my work......I chat to people and Brexit is high on the agenda.....none of what you say is mentioned.....in fact it is mostly positive regarding the UK getting out and looking forward not back.....I cannot recall any racial incidents apart from one or two in the first week or so of the Brexit vote......to me......things are just the same as they were on the 22nd June 2016.....its forums and discussions like these that breed the very hysteria you mentioned......if you are heading out to Oz then you clearly have already made up your mind......Brexit to you just reinforces your decision to move.......I have seen it all before.....I was one of them once......I look forward to reading your story in a few years once you have settled in Oz.........

So I suppose the murder of a Polish man in Harlow and the delivery of hate mail to Poles in Harlow and the stationing of Polish police there is just another example of a left wing plot/mass hysteria, which news are you watching, Fox.

[Bungo]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Having close friends and family in this country is no substitute for actually living here, and at such a distance you cannot experience current affairs in the same way as someone living here.

 

I'm glad to hear that your friends and family are feeling up beat and have no real worries, that must be nice for them. However, you group of contacts are unlikely to be numerous enough to form a representative sample of the UK population. That being the case, their opinions are subjective and hold no more weight than my own equally subjective views and those of anyone else commenting on here.

 

Sorry if that upsets you but as I said at the end of my last post, we are unlikely to be able to ever agree on these things so why not just let it lie now?

 

Well I am in the UK and I think you are imagining things because you are peeved at losing a vote. There is no evidence of any increased tensions. And as far as I can tell most thing are just going on as they were before. Even many people that I know voted to remain are happily getting on with life.

[BacktoDemocracy]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Having close friends and family in this country is no substitute for actually living here, and at such a distance you cannot experience current affairs in the same way as someone living here.

 

I'm glad to hear that your friends and family are feeling up beat and have no real worries, that must be nice for them. However, you group of contacts are unlikely to be numerous enough to form a representative sample of the UK population. That being the case, their opinions are subjective and hold no more weight than my own equally subjective views and those of anyone else commenting on here.

 

Sorry if that upsets you but as I said at the end of my last post, we are unlikely to be able to ever agree on these things so why not just let it lie now?

 

I do wonder whether there is a parallel right wing universe where no bad things happen and all things are for the best, or, is it just an overriding believe that their ideology is the answer to the worlds problems with no consequences.

Well the election of Trump moves us into a frightening real life experiment to test to destruction the right wings obsession with small govt, racial superiority, trashing of the environment, repudiation of climate change science and withdrawal from international treaties and alliances, hang on to your knickers this is going to be the ultimate white knuckle ride.

Edited November 9, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[Ken]

I do wonder whether there is parallel universe where no bad things happen and all things are for the best, or, is it just an overriding believe that right-wing ideology is the answer to the worlds problems.

Well the election of Trump moves us into a frightening real life experiment to test to destruction the right wings obsession with small govt, racial superiority, trashing of the environment, repudiation of climate change science and withdrawal from international treaties and alliances, hang on to your knickers this is going to be the ultimate white knuckle ride.

 

The most frightening thing about Trump is that he might start wars by accident. The most frightening thing about Hillary was that she might have started wars deliberately. The world will definitely be riskier under Trump than under Obama but it's safer than it would have been under Hillary.

[Rallyman]

I do wonder whether there is a parallel right wing universe where no bad things happen and all things are for the best, or, is it just an overriding believe that their ideology is the answer to the worlds problems with no consequences.

Well the election of Trump moves us into a frightening real life experiment to test to destruction the right wings obsession with small govt, racial superiority, trashing of the environment, repudiation of climate change science and withdrawal from international treaties and alliances, hang on to your knickers this is going to be the ultimate white knuckle ride.

 

 

It cant be any worse than when Bush Jnr became president, Too many of our young people have paid the ultimate sacrifice for his actions.

[BacktoDemocracy]

It cant be any worse than when Bush Jnr became president, Too many of our young people have paid the ultimate sacrifice for his actions.

 

Well we might all be paying a high price, a republican senate, a republican house and a republican president, there will be no constraints on whatever he dreams, no gun laws, abortion restricted, I would guess that a oil line running thro American native lands will now get the go ahead and the replacement for the supreme court will be a right winger which will mean right wing judgements for years to come.

Well one small consolation, TTIP may no longer be on the agenda if his mouthing about isolationism and protectionism are true, any takers on how long before he starts to burn coal in power stations again.

[Gbye grey sky]

I wonder if Trump is now having his Brexit moment. As in "oh ****, I actually won the vote, what the hell am I supposed to do now"?

[tea4too]

.

EDIT.......

 

.....As for all the references to Hitler, this may seem like mass hysteria to someone living so far away, but there has been an atmosphere of racial tension building up, helped along no end by Nigel Farage. There are some tenuous parallels with the rise of the nazis, and I find it quite frightening to see how quickly incidences of racism seem to have increased.....

 

I agree @Fisher1 and am surprised so many posters living in the UK are unaware of the spike in hate crime following Brexit, as it has been well reported throughout the media. Incidents range from graffiti on Polish community centres and abusive notes pushed through the doors of Polish residents, to people accosted and attacked in the street for not speaking English. It has not been confined to people from the EU either, with other minorities receiving abuse along the lines of "We voted leave - when are you going to?" These are just a couple of links -

http://news.sky.com/story/hate-crime-reports-up-57-in-brexit-aftermath-10326815

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/30/five-teenage-boys-arrested-after-man-dies-following-attack-in-essex

[BacktoDemocracy]

I wonder if Trump is now having his Brexit moment. As in "oh ****, I actually won the vote, what the hell am I supposed to do now"?

I doubt it, I don’t think he is quite aware of what it means to be the president of a giant country, of the compromises he is going to have to make nor how much the country is in the control of global finance and business, where is the money going to come from to halt the decline of Americas infrastructure, tax rises, overseas investment, Jewish investment ????!!!

[BacktoDemocracy]

I agree @Fisher1 and am surprised so many posters living in the UK are unaware of the spike in hate crime following Brexit, as it has been well reported throughout the media. Incidents range from graffiti on Polish community centres and abusive notes pushed through the doors of Polish residents, to people accosted and attacked in the street for not speaking English. It has not been confined to people from the EU either, with other minorities receiving abuse along the lines of "We voted leave - when are you going to?" These are just a couple of links -

http://news.sky.com/story/hate-crime-reports-up-57-in-brexit-aftermath-10326815

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/30/five-teenage-boys-arrested-after-man-dies-following-attack-in-essex

I do not see how they can be unaware, I think that they are in denial and unaware of where this whole thing could end up. The parallels with the situation in Europe, including the UK, in the 1920's are becoming clearer and clearer as this century rolls on.

[Rallyman]

Well we might all be paying a high price, a republican senate, a republican house and a republican president, there will be no constraints on whatever he dreams, no gun laws, abortion restricted, I would guess that a oil line running thro American native lands will now get the go ahead and the replacement for the supreme court will be a right winger which will mean right wing judgements for years to come.

Well one small consolation, TTIP may no longer be on the agenda if his mouthing about isolationism and protectionism are true, any takers on how long before he starts to burn coal in power stations again.

 

And you know all this as fact ? I haven't got a clue as to how his term in office will pan out and neither do you by the sounds of it you are ready to jump into the river.

 

People voted the way they did for a reason and maybe they have had enough of career politicians they wanted change

Thatcher had a massive majority,like wise with Blair sure there were tough times and difficult decisions made but we kept on going and we all will this time ,

The comments going about on social media are a joke , I am neither pro Trump or anti Trump but believe in democracy and that has what has happened the people of America have decided.

[Gbye grey sky]

And you know all this as fact ? I haven't got a clue as to how his term in office will pan out and neither do you by the sounds of it you are ready to jump into the river.

 

People voted the way they did for a reason and maybe they have had enough of career politicians they wanted change

Thatcher had a massive majority,like wise with Blair sure there were tough times and difficult decisions made but we kept on going and we all will this time ,

The comments going about on social media are a joke , I am neither pro Trump or anti Trump but believe in democracy and that has what has happened the people of America have decided.

 

That's a tough fence to sit on.

[Rallyman]

That's a tough fence to sit on.

 

Just had enough of the BS politic agenda spouted by them all let's see what he actually does and if it's not good then fair enough he will fall on his own sword and rightly so.

As most on here if not all posters don't actually live in America I am not so sure how they can be so clinical on what will and won't happen,as said before the people of America have voted and for a reason chose him ,in life we don't always get what we want, I will be very suprised if he makes a bigger cock up than GW Bush on his forgien policy that would take some doing.

so no not a tough fence to sit on for me.

[Keith and Linda]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Having close friends and family in this country is no substitute for actually living here, and at such a distance you cannot experience current affairs in the same way as someone living here.

 

I'm glad to hear that your friends and family are feeling up beat and have no real worries, that must be nice for them. However, you group of contacts are unlikely to be numerous enough to form a representative sample of the UK population. That being the case, their opinions are subjective and hold no more weight than my own equally subjective views and those of anyone else commenting on here.

 

Sorry if that upsets you but as I said at the end of my last post, we are unlikely to be able to ever agree on these things so why not just let it lie now?

 

Yep, opinion polls seem to mean nothing these days, what with Brexit and now Trump, the voting people really do not know much at all!

[Gbye grey sky]

Just had enough of the BS politic agenda spouted by them all let's see what he actually does and if it's not good then fair enough he will fall on his own sword and rightly so.

As most on here if not all posters don't actually live in America I am not so sure how they can be so clinical on what will and won't happen,as said before the people of America have voted and for a reason chose him ,in life we don't always get what we want, I will be very suprised if he makes a bigger cock up than GW Bush on his forgien policy that would take some doing.

so no not a tough fence to sit on for me.

 

Fair enough but he does seem to polarise opinion. He has made a fair few outrageous promises and I for one hope that he does not keep most of them. Whether or not he improves the lot of the white middle-class who predominantly backed him remains to be seen.

 

My concern is the future direction of the USA. An insular, protectionist, gun-toting, pro-fossil fuel, anti-abortion, anti-gay executive backed by both houses and a right leaning Supreme Court just cannot be good news for anyone outside the USA except possibly Putin who appears to be a natural ally.

[newjez]

Just had enough of the BS politic agenda spouted by them all let's see what he actually does and if it's not good then fair enough he will fall on his own sword and rightly so.

As most on here if not all posters don't actually live in America I am not so sure how they can be so clinical on what will and won't happen,as said before the people of America have voted and for a reason chose him ,in life we don't always get what we want, I will be very suprised if he makes a bigger cock up than GW Bush on his forgien policy that would take some doing.

so no not a tough fence to sit on for me.

his policies so far will not be beneficial for Australia. How's that fence feeling?

[KathB35]

the people of America have voted and for a reason chose him ,

 

The majority of people of America cast their votes for Clinton and so didn't choose him.... he's the president elect because of an outdated undemocratic electoral college system.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gbye grey sky]

The majority of people of America cast their votes for Clinton and so didn't choose him.... he's the president elect because of an outdated undemocratic electoral college system.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Few votes in it to be fair. And produces a less distorted outcome than the UK first-past-the-post system where a PM commands an overall majority in the House with roughly a third of the vote.