Keith and Linda Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I wonder what it takes for the truth to dawn? Of course both parties mentioned were propelled by self interest. Neither wanted out nor expected the result. Well documented. And you know the TRUTH? do please enlighten us sage of WA (and the world). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 "the ever declining dividends of democracy". A great turn of phrase and sums up where we appear to be heading right now. So many low points in democracy right now. The Murdoch's of this world should never have been allowed the power to be so subversive. The concept of entering politics should be a desire to serve and do the best for nation and the greatest number of compatriots. Not the self serving, high earning lobbyist arena most move onto after political life guaranteed to ease them into a life of genteel retirement for abuse of position. Is the concept even practical today? How can we run level pegging with nations like China who labour under no such pretensions? What the people desire is of ever less importance anyway, besides tactics to confuse and distort at election time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 And you know the TRUTH? do please enlighten us sage of WA (and the world). Just stop swallowing the same old bile and go out and seek the truth. It is rather evident. You don't even have to be a sage, as easy to trip over the obvious. Are you seriously suggesting those politicians were meaning what they said?? Cameron? Johnson? Even May expressed her doubts prior to vote and is now expected to leads Britain out. A farce of epic proportions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The Murdoch's of this world should never have been allowed the power to be so subversive. The concept of entering politics should be a desire to serve and do the best for nation and the greatest number of compatriots. Not the self serving, high earning lobbyist arena most move onto after political life guaranteed to ease them into a life of genteel retirement for abuse of position. Is the concept even practical today? How can we run level pegging with nations like China who labour under no such pretensions? What the people desire is of ever less importance anyway, besides tactics to confuse and distort at election time. It has gone beyond that though. The internet is helping to polarise opinions and give extremists on both sides a strong voice. Reasoned debate is dying and galvanising support is now increasingly done with hatred and fear laced with invented 'facts'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 It has gone beyond that though. The internet is helping to polarise opinions and give extremists on both sides a strong voice. Reasoned debate is dying and galvanising support is now increasingly done with hatred and fear laced with invented 'facts'. Yes I fear you are correct. All too much sound bites and slogans and little real awareness. Very bad for a democratic system that can be so easily manipulated. Humanity will sadly never learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amibovered Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher1 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) YOU CANNOT SAY AFTER YOU HAVE VOTED THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND :twitcy: SO IF YOU VOTE ON ANYTHING YOU CAN DEMAND A RE-VOTE BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE THE RESULT....IF WE DO NOT LEAVE THE EU AFTER THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTED FOR IT THEN DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY ID DEAD....CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER VOTE ON THE LAST ELECTION BECAUSE THE TORIES LIED ABOUT SO MANY THINGS OR THE ONE BEFORE WHEN THEY SAID THERE WOULD BE NO TUTION FEES BUT THERE WAS AFTER THEY GOT IT.....SORRY BUT THE WHINGING LOESER NEED TO SHUT UP...THEY LOST THE VOTE. Hi PB. Are you aware of the convention that typing in capital letters on a forum is deemed to be 'shouting' at someone? Since you seem to be replying to my carefully considered and polite post, I assume that someone is me. So could I respectfully ask you to please stop shouting at me? If on the other hand you simply accidentally pressed your shift key, please accept my apologies. If you read my post carefully you will possibly realise that I was not advocating a re-vote about leaving the EU. What I was trying to do (possibly inefficiently) was point out the need for - and the usefulness of - parliamentary involvement in thrashing out the fine details of our exit strategy, which should of course have been outlined prior to the vote and the opportunity offered by parliamentary involvement. Whatever happens, I'm quite sure that democracy id not dead. I believe it id very much alive. It id reasoned debate that appears to be suffering at the hands of those who would be much happier just talking to themselves in an empty room. Edited November 7, 2016 by Fisher1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]34289[/ATTACH]you didn't like the high court decision either? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 For what it's worth, I would hate another referendum or worse, a reversal. We have never fit in the union well, and it is time to find a better solution. I just hope we don't construct a worse one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amibovered Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 you didn't like the high court decision either? Well, if it's the law, then so be it, is it the law though ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Yes. I really don't think you need a crystal ball to conclude that the EU are not going to budge on the free movement of people as a pre-requisite for continued access to the single market. Two years potentially of 'negotiations' would result in Brexit with no trade deal with the UKs largest trading block and any trade deal would potentially take many years or even decades. Some see this as an opportunity for the UK to strike trade deals elsewhere but the UK will be desperate for these and desperation does not give the UK a strong hand. I see that India are looking to link free movement of people and easier access to visas to a trade deal for instance. The problem with trade deals is that you have to have things that suit the other party more than you. Maybe there are some with law degrees etc who feel they know better but have had little or no experience of negotiations. I have, and they are bloody hard. It helps if you don't go into them with the view that you are numero uno and everyone should kowtow to the 6th largest economy and the founder of the British Empire with the 2nd highest medal tally in the Olympics etc. Not actually true.....again. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37763913 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Yes. I really don't think you need a crystal ball to conclude that the EU are not going to budge on the free movement of people as a pre-requisite for continued access to the single market. Two years potentially of 'negotiations' would result in Brexit with no trade deal with the UKs largest trading block and any trade deal would potentially take many years or even decades. Some see this as an opportunity for the UK to strike trade deals elsewhere but the UK will be desperate for these and desperation does not give the UK a strong hand. I see that India are looking to link free movement of people and easier access to visas to a trade deal for instance. The problem with trade deals is that you have to have things that suit the other party more than you. Maybe there are some with law degrees etc who feel they know better but have had little or no experience of negotiations. I have, and they are bloody hard. It helps if you don't go into them with the view that you are numero uno and everyone should kowtow to the 6th largest economy and the founder of the British Empire with the 2nd highest medal tally in the Olympics etc. So....it is done.....your are fully converted and now preaching from the book of Hoff......lol When is the op?......brain out.....pie in......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea4too Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 YOU CANNOT SAY AFTER YOU HAVE VOTED THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND :twitcy: SO IF YOU VOTE ON ANYTHING YOU CAN DEMAND A RE-VOTE BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE THE RESULT....IF WE DO NOT LEAVE THE EU AFTER THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTED FOR IT THEN DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY ID DEAD....CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER VOTE ON THE LAST ELECTION BECAUSE THE TORIES LIED ABOUT SO MANY THINGS OR THE ONE BEFORE WHEN THEY SAID THERE WOULD BE NO TUTION FEES BUT THERE WAS AFTER THEY GOT IT.....SORRY BUT THE WHINGING LOESER NEED TO SHUT UP...THEY LOST THE VOTE. While I am not necessarily advocating another referendum, I do think democracy is about listening to people and allowing them to continually have a voice. Referendums (referenda?) elections, petitions, public protests are all part and parcel of that. As things change public opinion shifts, and reflecting ‘the will of the people’ means a responsibility on our lawmakers to provide the necessary information while also consulting on a regular basis. The general election process is a case in point…..having made a decision the electorate is not stuck with the outcome indefinitely. Interestingly in June 2008 the Republic of Ireland held a referendum on the ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon and it was rejected. A second vote a year later approved it. Democracy in action? Or should the electorate simply have lived with the consequences of their first choice? T x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 While I am not necessarily advocating another referendum, I do think democracy is about listening to people and allowing them to continually have a voice. Referendums (referenda?) elections, petitions, public protests are all part and parcel of that. As things change public opinion shifts, and reflecting ‘the will of the people’ means a responsibility on our lawmakers to provide the necessary information while also consulting on a regular basis. The general election process is a case in point…..having made a decision the electorate is not stuck with the outcome indefinitely. Interestingly in June 2008 the Republic of Ireland held a referendum on the ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon and it was rejected. A second vote a year later approved it. Democracy in action? Or should the electorate simply have lived with the consequences of their first choice? T x The will of the people has been heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I said "all" because I meant all. And by "all" I was referring to the posters (of whom I mentioned 3 of the most vociferous over many years) that have never, to my acknowledge, indicated in thousands of posts that Britain was anything other than the best place to live, work, bring up a family etc etc. It turns out that "all" of these people now believe that the UK is going to be better off outside the EU. Why anyone would want to mess with perfection is beyond me.....unless secretly they had never really liked their life in the UK anyway perhaps. Yes but you only mentioned those 3 after you had been pulled on the "all" tag......the ability to interpret what you say.....without you actually saying it requires a rare talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea4too Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The will of the people has been heard. The will of the people, those who voted, at that moment in time, based on the infirmation they had. Democracy does not start and end with a single conversation. T x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 It doesn't matter who wanted what, the referendum was clear cut, more people voted out than in. BUT.......17 million voted out......16 million voted in.......out of a total of 47 million.....which means that 30 million didn't vote out........:biglaugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrets Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Been mulling this......not really the judge's fault as they are interpreting the law as set by Parliament. The wording of the referendum act was not intended to be binding. Put a bill before Parliament asap. Then if the MP's vote it down it's really clear which body is calling the shots!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter1 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 It has gone beyond that though. The internet is helping to polarise opinions and give extremists on both sides a strong voice. Reasoned debate is dying and galvanising support is now increasingly done with hatred and fear laced with invented 'facts'. Totally agree you only have to look at the US Election, full of sound bites that mean nothing (bit like Brexit means Brexit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter1 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 BUT.......17 million voted out......16 million voted in.......out of a total of 47 million.....which means that 30 million didn't vote out........:biglaugh: I said didn't "actively" vote out post 110 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Totally agree you only have to look at the US Election, full of sound bites that mean nothing (bit like Brexit means Brexit) I think the polarization regarding the EU has been there for a very long time and there has been a lot of passion about it. It is just that now in a post Brexit world is it being reported a lot more and pro EU side have had to wake up to the fact many have never liked being in the EU. Many also felt very betrayed by the politicians who took us from joining the common market into something that barely resembles what we signed up for in the 70's. Hence the rise of UKIP and hence the need Cameron felt for a referendum. The last election saw UKIP get a massive vote and that vote was certain to grow. The EU has chosen to go along paths that not just the anti EU people do not support, but even some of its closest allies. It has commenced its own demise. For example http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37859684 I think that many watch what is happening in the Eurozone and see better from their armchairs than many politicians and so called experts. That and the calls from within the EU for ever more expansion, ever more push to federalism and ever less voice heard by the EU of its own people has resulted in Brexit and will result in other countries following Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher1 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The will of the people has been heard. And it shows that a narrow majority want one thing, a large minority want another and quite a lot of people couldn't give a stuff either way. I'm really glad I'm not in Teresa May's shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 And it shows that a narrow majority want one thing, a large minority want another and quite a lot of people couldn't give a stuff either way. I'm really glad I'm not in Teresa May's shoes. Thats whats called democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The will of the people, those who voted, at that moment in time, based on the infirmation they had. Democracy does not start and end with a single conversation. T x But it does when you have a democratic vote,and unless you have not noticed the outs won.Both sides told lies as all governments do anyway before any election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher1 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Thats whats called democracy. You have a gift for stating the obvious. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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