So Brexit now needs parliamentary approval?

[newjez]

 

Well of course it is.

although we never had right of appeal.

[Gbye grey sky]

Just been reading some of the newspaper coverage over there. Wow. It seems that many of those professing to want their country back intend to turn it into a country run by the baying mob.

 

With Trump on the threshold of power in the USA it is looking like the anarchists are going from strength to strength. History repeating itself 80 years on except this time the USA is also on the brink of fascism too.

 

People should remember that Nazi concentration camps and the Final Solution would never have happened without the tacit support of the majority. A lesson perhaps for those who think that the majority are always right.

[newjez]

Just been reading some of the newspaper coverage over there. Wow. It seems that many of those professing to want their country back intend to turn it into a country run by the baying mob.

 

With Trump on the threshold of power in the USA it is looking like the anarchists are going from strength to strength. History repeating itself 80 years on except this time the USA is also on the brink of fascism too.

 

People should remember that Nazi concentration camps and the Final Solution would never have happened without the tacit support of the majority. A lesson perhaps for those who think that the majority are always right.

it is quite disgusting. Can't wait for Murdoch to die, it's got that bad.

[KathB35]

Just been reading some of the newspaper coverage over there. Wow. It seems that many of those professing to want their country back intend to turn it into a country run by the baying mob.

 

With Trump on the threshold of power in the USA it is looking like the anarchists are going from strength to strength. History repeating itself 80 years on except this time the USA is also on the brink of fascism too.

 

People should remember that Nazi concentration camps and the Final Solution would never have happened without the tacit support of the majority. A lesson perhaps for those who think that the majority are always right.

 

I agree, it's awful.... seems take back control actually means losing total control! Needless to say I've been researching parent visas in the last few days, just in case we decide our parents would be better over here!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slean Wolfhead]

People should remember that Nazi concentration camps and the Final Solution would never have happened without the tacit support of the majority. A lesson perhaps for those who think that the majority are always right.

 

But the people who that may be targetted at are the ones who don't recognise it, you just have to read through some of the absolute drivel spouted by people even on this thread.

Just like the post-WW1 Germans were guilty of nothing but sleepwalking into a populist vision led by Hitler, who nobody could conceive would become the mass murderer and genocide perpetrator he became.

He was popular, he was for the average Joe, it was easy to create a populist following of people who felt they'd been treated unfairly after the Treaty of Versailles.

We have people like that in the UK now, calling for anything and not being worried about the consequences because they don't know their history and they can't imagine what a consequence is.

 

We're seeing it in the UK now : populist calls led by the media to ignore the laws that made the UK into the most stable and respected nation on the planet...it's no secret why people file claims in British courts because they want unbiased rulings untainted by political or populist pressure....and look at how the right-wing media are betraying them!

Calls to ignore the checks and balances that are deliberately designed to prevent fundamentalism occurring, calls to ignore our legal agreements and just resign from the EU and walk away from the lot, forcing them to take whatever deal we offer them.

Calls to abandon EU Human Rights legislation because it has EU in the title, without realising that the UK actually wrote the damn thing for them to PROTECT workers and people just like themselves.

 

This is nonsense, coming from stupid ignorant people whom you wouldn't trust to clean your car properly. But the question has always been; how do the stupid know that they're stupid? The answer is that they don't, and they're easy to manipulate by charlatans promising them a rosy future.

 

I wonder who will declare war on whom first and who it would affect most? Not the Editor of the Daily Mail or your Nigel Farages, they'd be straight on a plane to the south of France making sure they were well away from it.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Slean Wolfhead

[newjez]

But the people who that may be targetted at are the ones who don't recognise it, you just have to read through some of the absolute drivel spouted by people even on this thread.

Just like the post-WW1 Germans were guilty of nothing but sleepwalking into a populist vision led by Hitler, who nobody could conceive would become the mass murderer and genocide perpetrator he became.

He was popular, he was for the average Joe, it was easy to create a populist following of people who felt they'd been treated unfairly after the Treaty of Versailles.

We have people like that in the UK now, calling for anything and not being worried about the consequences because they don't know their history and they can't imagine what a consequence is.

 

We're seeing it in the UK now : populist calls led by the media to ignore the laws that made the UK into the most stable and respected nation on the planet...it's no secret why people file claims in British courts because they want unbiased rulings untainted by political or populist pressure....and look at how the right-wing media are betraying them!

Calls to ignore the checks and balances that are deliberately designed to prevent fundamentalism occurring, calls to ignore our legal agreements and just resign from the EU and walk away from the lot, forcing them to take whatever deal we offer them.

Calls to abandon EU Human Rights legislation because it has EU in the title, without realising that the UK actually wrote the damn thing for them to PROTECT workers and people just like themselves.

 

This is nonsense, coming from stupid ignorant people whom you wouldn't trust to clean your car properly. But the question has always been; how do the stupid know that they're stupid? The answer is that they don't, and they're easy to manipulate by charlatans promising them a rosy future.

 

I wonder who will declare war on whom first and who it would affect most? Not the Editor of the Daily Mail or your Nigel Farages, they'd be straight on a plane to the south of France making sure they were well away from it.

it looked to me like the express were inciting riots. And the homophobic front page of the daily mail was just sickening. I was almost expecting racial slurs against Gina miller.

[Gbye grey sky]

But the people who that may be targetted at are the ones who don't recognise it, you just have to read through some of the absolute drivel spouted by people even on this thread.

Just like the post-WW1 Germans were guilty of nothing but sleepwalking into a populist vision led by Hitler, who nobody could conceive would become the mass murderer and genocide perpetrator he became.

He was popular, he was for the average Joe, it was easy to create a populist following of people who felt they'd been treated unfairly after the Treaty of Versailles.

We have people like that in the UK now, calling for anything and not being worried about the consequences because they don't know their history and they can't imagine what a consequence is.

 

We're seeing it in the UK now : populist calls led by the media to ignore the laws that made the UK into the most stable and respected nation on the planet...it's no secret why people file claims in British courts because they want unbiased rulings untainted by political or populist pressure....and look at how the right-wing media are betraying them!

Calls to ignore the checks and balances that are deliberately designed to prevent fundamentalism occurring, calls to ignore our legal agreements and just resign from the EU and walk away from the lot, forcing them to take whatever deal we offer them.

Calls to abandon EU Human Rights legislation because it has EU in the title, without realising that the UK actually wrote the damn thing for them to PROTECT workers and people just like themselves.

 

This is nonsense, coming from stupid ignorant people whom you wouldn't trust to clean your car properly. But the question has always been; how do the stupid know that they're stupid? The answer is that they don't, and they're easy to manipulate by charlatans promising them a rosy future.

 

I wonder who will declare war on whom first and who it would affect most? Not the Editor of the Daily Mail or your Nigel Farages, they'd be straight on a plane to the south of France making sure they were well away from it.

 

I don't accept that the majority are stupid. Not at all. But many otherwise sensible people are wilfully blind to the growing xenophobia being propagated. Many thought Hitler could be controlled too but he and his cohorts cleverly created an overweening sense of racial superiority, invented grievances, and threats of violence against opponents with a backdrop of hate-filled propaganda. Hmmm.

[newjez]

 

I don't accept that the majority are stupid. Not at all. But many otherwise sensible people are wilfully blind to the growing xenophobia being propagated. Many thought Hitler could be controlled too but he and his cohorts cleverly created an overweening sense of racial superiority, invented grievances, and threats of violence against opponents with a backdrop of hate-filled propaganda. Hmmm.

I did read the sun for a year once as I had free access to it. It is a very clever paper. After a year I found that I now held certain political views which weren't mine. It creeps into your soul and corrupts you. If propaganda wasn't effective, they wouldn't do it. Edited November 5, 2016 by newjez

[BacktoDemocracy]

I don't think we are trying to pretend to be anything we are not. We are the 5/6 (depending on measurement) biggest economy in the world. We are one of the largest military powers, we are a permanent member of the security council, a G7 nation and one of the most respected nations on the planet.

 

it is not a sense of superiority. It is superiority and it is a bit sad that as a Brit you don't believe that.

 

I have worked / lived in a lot of the world and the U.K. Is far more respected and admired than I think you appreciate. As for the NHS, that is another debate, but, I think if you took the entire GDP of the USA and Chine combined and gave it to the NHS there would still be complaints of under funding.

 

So I was right , one the underpinning rationales for brexit is re establishing the faded grandeur that was GREAT BRITAIN, what is sad is that we all have to accompany you on a voyage to nowhere to prove it's fools gold.

 

And the reality is that the NHS will be starved of funds and then sliced up and sold off to the Americans who can no longer make enough from their own failed health system, and once it's gone, just like the railways, it will NEVER come back

[Rallyman]

I did read the sun for a year once as I had free access to it. It is a very clever paper. After a year I found that I now held certain political views which weren't mine. It creeps into your soul and corrupts you. If propaganda wasn't effective, they wouldn't do it.

 

Absolute gutter press news paper.

[Perthbum]

then we would have to withdraw article 50, or have another referendum. I don't see what an election would achieve, but we would probably have that as well. Hard brexit is no longer an option, unless the people specifically vote for it.

 

 

 

what is (hardbrexit) in your opinion,without googling it newjez.

[BacktoDemocracy]

It's a marker to the kind of people that have been created in the last 30 years. They don't understand the meaning of words, laws processes, education ; they don't even know how their own country works or how it came to be.

But they want it back instead of something else they don't understand.

 

It's been well known since Victorian times, even in the richest of societies when Britain was fabulously rich, that around 20% of any population just didn't bother.

They've always been there, but they were safely ignored as they know little about anything and contribute nothing more than labour to put food on the table and beer in their belly. A malleable workforce that could be used as an engine.

 

The difference in the last 10 years is that with the internet and explosion in media and ways to link up information, these voices are being heard and they self-perpetuate in an echo chamber of moronic bullshit and despair. There is no use for their engine anymore, the future is in technology and robotics where humans will be less needed. So what happens to a growing world population, what do they do and how do they survive?

 

None of these people have got the ability, intelligence or skills to take on a job like the one that's coming. Truth and fact isn't important, the media have become a biased mob of opinion promoters, rather than news reporters. They're completely successful because they know a huge part of the population haven't got the intelligence or education to make sense of the truth anymore and will just follow slogans.

What they're calling for anarchy, because that is all they can imagine with the knowledge at their disposal.

 

Maybe they're right. The old rules don't apply because the world and information age has changed everything. Capitalism is eating democracy and it's happening in more countries than the UK. The countries where they've decided that not everybody needs to be educated are the ones that are suffering the most, because they never expected that these baying disenfranchised mobs could ever mobilise into groups that had power. The internet, greed and the inability to keep down the poorest has changed all that. Maybe it's just destiny?

Maybe people like Trump have read the tea leaves better?

And people call me negative!

But I agree a fair description of the bleak situation.

Conditions ripe for the rise of extremism

Unfortunately a very fair description, being part of the EU gave us some hope of redressing the balance but as a individual wounded buffalo out of the herd we are easy meat for the circling wolves and that has always been the ploy of capitalism, separate out the bewildered laggard at the back and then take it down.

Edited November 5, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[BacktoDemocracy]

But the people who that may be targetted at are the ones who don't recognise it, you just have to read through some of the absolute drivel spouted by people even on this thread.

Just like the post-WW1 Germans were guilty of nothing but sleepwalking into a populist vision led by Hitler, who nobody could conceive would become the mass murderer and genocide perpetrator he became.

He was popular, he was for the average Joe, it was easy to create a populist following of people who felt they'd been treated unfairly after the Treaty of Versailles.

We have people like that in the UK now, calling for anything and not being worried about the consequences because they don't know their history and they can't imagine what a consequence is.

 

We're seeing it in the UK now : populist calls led by the media to ignore the laws that made the UK into the most stable and respected nation on the planet...it's no secret why people file claims in British courts because they want unbiased rulings untainted by political or populist pressure....and look at how the right-wing media are betraying them!

Calls to ignore the checks and balances that are deliberately designed to prevent fundamentalism occurring, calls to ignore our legal agreements and just resign from the EU and walk away from the lot, forcing them to take whatever deal we offer them.

Calls to abandon EU Human Rights legislation because it has EU in the title, without realising that the UK actually wrote the damn thing for them to PROTECT workers and people just like themselves.

 

This is nonsense, coming from stupid ignorant people whom you wouldn't trust to clean your car properly. But the question has always been; how do the stupid know that they're stupid? The answer is that they don't, and they're easy to manipulate by charlatans promising them a rosy future.

 

I wonder who will declare war on whom first and who it would affect most? Not the Editor of the Daily Mail or your Nigel Farages, they'd be straight on a plane to the south of France making sure they were well away from it.

I couldn't agree more, I'm in favour of Plato's voting requirements, all I cling to is a belief that there are enough bright people in positions of power to stop it becoming a right wing take over, but it is worrying that this is happening when we have the weakest opposition party in probably 85 years.

[VERYSTORMY]

But the people who that may be targetted at are the ones who don't recognise it, you just have to read through some of the absolute drivel spouted by people even on this thread.

Just like the post-WW1 Germans were guilty of nothing but sleepwalking into a populist vision led by Hitler, who nobody could conceive would become the mass murderer and genocide perpetrator he became.

He was popular, he was for the average Joe, it was easy to create a populist following of people who felt they'd been treated unfairly after the Treaty of Versailles.

We have people like that in the UK now, calling for anything and not being worried about the consequences because they don't know their history and they can't imagine what a consequence is.

 

We're seeing it in the UK now : populist calls led by the media to ignore the laws that made the UK into the most stable and respected nation on the planet...it's no secret why people file claims in British courts because they want unbiased rulings untainted by political or populist pressure....and look at how the right-wing media are betraying them!

Calls to ignore the checks and balances that are deliberately designed to prevent fundamentalism occurring, calls to ignore our legal agreements and just resign from the EU and walk away from the lot, forcing them to take whatever deal we offer them.

Calls to abandon EU Human Rights legislation because it has EU in the title, without realising that the UK actually wrote the damn thing for them to PROTECT workers and people just like themselves.

 

This is nonsense, coming from stupid ignorant people whom you wouldn't trust to clean your car properly. But the question has always been; how do the stupid know that they're stupid? The answer is that they don't, and they're easy to manipulate by charlatans promising them a rosy future.

 

I wonder who will declare war on whom first and who it would affect most? Not the Editor of the Daily Mail or your Nigel Farages, they'd be straight on a plane to the south of France making sure they were well away from it.

 

This is a example of the problem. It seems a small bunch of people believe that they are the inteligensia and know best, while the rest of the population are too stupid to understand.

 

It it is this view that is giving rise to the Trumps and the far right. Not because people actually are big supporters, but because people are sick of the attitude that they don't know enough to have a voice. An attitude that they should be ignored. This in turns breeds contempt of the status quo politicians and what they stand for.

 

The he hilerious part is that it is the left inteligensia who are actually the least educated and least able to be trusted to understand the issues. For example, you talk about EU human rights legislation, but then mix it with workers rights. But, the U.K. introduced much of workers rights such as race discrimationnlong before the EU. The human rights legislation on the other hand is very poor. It was always regarded as appalling drafting. In my years at law school it was used as a teaching aid for how not to draft. it was though always thought that no one would ever be stupid enough to actually do anything with it, but just like the principle that "never think something is idiot proof as an idiot will come along and prove you wrong" the left came along and proved us wrong.

 

It is rather funny that you say people do not have a good enough understanding of their political and legal history, yet fail to spot that the UK has a long history of some of the greatest human rights protection that pre dates the EU by almost a thousand years.

[BacktoDemocracy]

it looked to me like the express were inciting riots. And the homophobic front page of the daily mail was just sickening. I was almost expecting racial slurs against Gina miller.

I thought that was the front page of the Sun, something about 'Overseas money blocking brexit' with a colour picture of Gina, positively vomit inducing.

[BacktoDemocracy]

This is a example of the problem. It seems a small bunch of people believe that they are the inteligensia and know best, while the rest of the population are too stupid to understand.

 

It it is this view that is giving rise to the Trumps and the far right. Not because people actually are big supporters, but because people are sick of the attitude that they don't know enough to have a voice. An attitude that they should be ignored. This in turns breeds contempt of the status quo politicians and what they stand for.

 

The he hilerious part is that it is the left inteligensia who are actually the least educated and least able to be trusted to understand the issues. For example, you talk about EU human rights legislation, but then mix it with workers rights. But, the U.K. introduced much of workers rights such as race discrimationnlong before the EU. The human rights legislation on the other hand is very poor. It was always regarded as appalling drafting. In my years at law school it was used as a teaching aid for how not to draft. it was though always thought that no one would ever be stupid enough to actually do anything with it, but just like the principle that "never think something is idiot proof as an idiot will come along and prove you wrong" the left came along and proved us wrong.

 

It is rather funny that you say people do not have a good enough understanding of their political and legal history, yet fail to spot that the UK has a long history of some of the greatest human rights protection that pre dates the EU by almost a thousand years.

But I thought you were in oil exploration.

[bunbury61]

Similarly I cannot believe that anyone would be so naive as to believe that a man with such a thin skin and a penchant for fantasies about how important he is to the world and sexual fantasies about women is suitable to be in charge of the largest arsenal in the world, what would he do when Putin didn't love him or the EU tell him his proposals are unacceptable, his deranged finger would be straight on the button.

We might live to see the first US president sent to a mental hospital.

 

Naive ? Really ...well for someone so naive I have been awfully lucky to do and achieve so much in my life .

Beautiful wife ,beautiful children ,but there you go .

Its the same arrogance Tha we saw before the brexit vote .

 

If Hillary Clinton is elected ,there will be a global conflict within her time in office .

How can you support someone who is up to her neck in corruption ?

The Saudis ..isis ....it will all come out eventually .

WikiLeaks have already started releasing stuff

With the Donald you have a chance of peace .

He's pals with Putin ,and things will get sorted .

 

God help us ,if she is elected

[Gbye grey sky]

Naive ? Really ...well for someone so naive I have been awfully lucky to do and achieve so much in my life .

Beautiful wife ,beautiful children ,but there you go .

Its the same arrogance Tha we saw before the brexit vote .

 

If Hillary Clinton is elected ,there will be a global conflict within her time in office .

How can you support someone who is up to her neck in corruption ?

The Saudis ..isis ....it will all come out eventually .

WikiLeaks have already started releasing stuff

With the Donald you have a chance of peace .

He's pals with Putin ,and things will get sorted .

 

God help us ,if she is elected

 

Why?

[newjez]

 

what is (hardbrexit) in your opinion,without googling it newjez.

soft and hard brexit are a fallacy. May was right in that there are degrees of brexit. I would define a soft brexit as remaining with the single market. I would call hard brexit as leaving the EU without an agreement either voluntarily or forcefully if we run out of time. Between the two, there are various combinations. But within two years, with a German, French and now possibility a UK election, bearing in mind how difficult it is to deal with the EU, I really doubt anything else is possible. Our best option is a soft brexit that hardens overtime. It would be much easier on everyone than a hard brexit that softens overtime. A soft brexit may not even be possible, as has been mentioned. But then I think we would have no option but to stay in the EU, and I doubt that would be a pleasant prospect for us or the EU. No one wants a team member who really doesn't want to be there. We would be like a recalcitrant child.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Naive ? Really ...well for someone so naive I have been awfully lucky to do and achieve so much in my life .

Beautiful wife ,beautiful children ,but there you go .

Its the same arrogance Tha we saw before the brexit vote .

 

If Hillary Clinton is elected ,there will be a global conflict within her time in office .

How can you support someone who is up to her neck in corruption ?

The Saudis ..isis ....it will all come out eventually .

WikiLeaks have already started releasing stuff

With the Donald you have a chance of peace .

He's pals with Putin ,and things will get sorted .

 

God help us ,if she is elected

No one is friends with Putin they are sycophantic acolytes in exactly the same way that all dictators require their underlings to be, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Erdogan, Hussien, Gaddafi, if Trump and Putin ever meet it will be immediate conflict because they will each demand that the other be subservient to their ego, they will not be able to stay within the role that they occupy and stay within clearly defined diplomatic boundaries, it will be personal domination and that will be so important to each of them that neither of them will back down, bingo the makings of conflict.

[BacktoDemocracy]

soft and hard brexit are a fallacy. May was right in that there are degrees of brexit. I would define a soft brexit as remaining with the single market. I would call hard brexit as leaving the EU without an agreement either voluntarily or forcefully if we run out of time. Between the two, there are various combinations. But within two years, with a German, French and now possibility a UK election, bearing in mind how difficult it is to deal with the EU, I really doubt anything else is possible. Our best option is a soft brexit that hardens overtime. It would be much easier on everyone than a hard brexit that softens overtime. A soft brexit may not even be possible, as has been mentioned. But then I think we would have no option but to stay in the EU, and I doubt that would be a pleasant prospect for us or the EU. No one wants a team member who really doesn't want to be there. We would be like a recalcitrant child.

We have been fulfilling the recalcitrant child role now for a number of years due to the sniping of anti EU MP's like Redwood, Rees Mogg, (what a wonderfully stupid name) and Lawson and other assorted rednecks and Empire Loyalists.

[newjez]

This is a example of the problem. It seems a small bunch of people believe that they are the inteligensia and know best, while the rest of the population are too stupid to understand.

 

It it is this view that is giving rise to the Trumps and the far right. Not because people actually are big supporters, but because people are sick of the attitude that they don't know enough to have a voice. An attitude that they should be ignored. This in turns breeds contempt of the status quo politicians and what they stand for.

 

The he hilerious part is that it is the left inteligensia who are actually the least educated and least able to be trusted to understand the issues. For example, you talk about EU human rights legislation, but then mix it with workers rights. But, the U.K. introduced much of workers rights such as race discrimationnlong before the EU. The human rights legislation on the other hand is very poor. It was always regarded as appalling drafting. In my years at law school it was used as a teaching aid for how not to draft. it was though always thought that no one would ever be stupid enough to actually do anything with it, but just like the principle that "never think something is idiot proof as an idiot will come along and prove you wrong" the left came along and proved us wrong.

 

It is rather funny that you say people do not have a good enough understanding of their political and legal history, yet fail to spot that the UK has a long history of some of the greatest human rights protection that pre dates the EU by almost a thousand years.

I suggest you watch an episode or two of tipping point or judge rinder

[newjez]

Naive ? Really ...well for someone so naive I have been awfully lucky to do and achieve so much in my life .

Beautiful wife ,beautiful children ,but there you go .

Its the same arrogance Tha we saw before the brexit vote .

 

If Hillary Clinton is elected ,there will be a global conflict within her time in office .

How can you support someone who is up to her neck in corruption ?

The Saudis ..isis ....it will all come out eventually .

WikiLeaks have already started releasing stuff

With the Donald you have a chance of peace .

He's pals with Putin ,and things will get sorted .

 

God help us ,if she is elected

are you deliberately trying to undermine very stormy's argument?

[newjez]

 

But I thought you were in oil exploration.

he's part of the inteligensia.

 

[newjez]

 

We have been fulfilling the recalcitrant child role now for a number of years due to the sniping of anti EU MP's like Redwood, Rees Mogg, (what a wonderfully stupid name) and Lawson and other assorted rednecks and Empire Loyalists.

OK, angry recalcitrant child.