So Brexit now needs parliamentary approval?

[Fisher1]

 

So when did this come about with the one eyed hyper ventilating doom and gloom merchants? when they do recognize other peoples opinions (as in the result of the brexit vote) then yes we can have a reasoned discussion................ but I am not holding my breath!

 

Actually I have recognised people's opinions re: the brexit vote, from the beginning. Its difficult not to, when other people's opinions have caused such a hiccup in the financial well being of my country. I have also tried to express my opinions about the current situation in a reasoned and polite way. It is difficult when the subject is such an emotive one but I have tried, and I can think of several other posters who have also tried to set out their thoughts in a reasonable way.

 

However, many other posters are too busy hurling insults to offer any debate beyond hurling insults, as in

 

"one eyed hyper ventilating doom and gloom merchants"

 

What sort of debate can this kind of description possibly lead to? I could say that I am not one-eyed (although my mum is, and is almost completely blind because of it. Not something to take lightly I promise you.) I could say that I am not hyper ventilating (this is a temporary condition that often leads to the sufferer losing consciousness) at present. The correct description would be "one-eyed gloom merchants prone to hyper ventilation." I would tentatively accept 'gloom merchant' for myself, given that I stand to lose a lot of money when I move my savings to Australia later this year.

 

What I cant quite get my head round is whether accepting the title "two eyed gloom merchant not given to hyper ventilation" adds much to any discussion about whether the UK judiciary have the right to ... erm ... make judgements.

[Fisher1]

I rather think the childish ones are those kicking and screaming in the sweet isle because they cannot have what they want! hard to reason with them!

 

No, the childish posters are those who insist on bringing everything down to the level of playground taunts. "Kicking and screaming in the sweet aisle?" What does that add to any discussion? Can you not find a way to express yourself without resorting to overused and frankly boring references to your mis spent childhood?

 

It is not hard to reason with most of the posters on here - but people do get irritated by the tit for tat nonsense that passes for debate with a lot of posters. I've been guilty of it myself and know that its a fault of mine, its so tempting to retaliate in that way, especially when people leave themselves wide open by making daft jibes in the first place.

 

But sniping has no place in a sensible discussion, we all know that really. Don't we?

[Gbye grey sky]

I believed then, and have not changed my mind that Remain was, on balance, the least risky and preferable outcome for the UK economy. However there were reasonable arguments for both outcomes (though most of these did no figure highly in the debate leading up to the vote).

 

Nevertheless I am also of the firm opinion that you accept a result and then get on with it. Article 50 will be triggered - the court rulings are yet another irrelevant sideshow - as Parliament will not contradict the will of the people as defined in the referendum.

 

Whether or not Parliament, rather than the government take a role in the negotiations I fail to see as anything other than academic. It comes down to accepting free movement of people or leave the EU without a free trade agreement in place. I am starting to think that faffing about for the next 2 years before reaching that conclusion serves nobody. If indeed there is economic fall out from a Hard Brexit then you might as well have that now rather than spin things out for the next 2 to 3 years and then have it.

 

The constant uncertainty will act as a brake on the economy for years in any event and the UKs hands are tied while the 'negotiations' meander along going nowhere.

[Keith and Linda]

Actually I have recognised people's opinions re: the brexit vote, from the beginning. Its difficult not to, when other people's opinions have caused such a hiccup in the financial well being of my country. I have also tried to express my opinions about the current situation in a reasoned and polite way. It is difficult when the subject is such an emotive one but I have tried, and I can think of several other posters who have also tried to set out their thoughts in a reasonable way.

 

However, many other posters are too busy hurling insults to offer any debate beyond hurling insults, as in

 

"one eyed hyper ventilating doom and gloom merchants"

 

What sort of debate can this kind of description possibly lead to? I could say that I am not one-eyed (although my mum is, and is almost completely blind because of it. Not something to take lightly I promise you.) I could say that I am not hyper ventilating (this is a temporary condition that often leads to the sufferer losing consciousness) at present. The correct description would be "one-eyed gloom merchants prone to hyper ventilation." I would tentatively accept 'gloom merchant' for myself, given that I stand to lose a lot of money when I move my savings to Australia later this year.

 

What I cant quite get my head round is whether accepting the title "two eyed gloom merchant not given to hyper ventilation" adds much to any discussion about whether the UK judiciary have the right to ... erm ... make judgements.

 

Without trawling through all you posts then I would say that your opinions have, as highlighted above, always tended to be on who, what, will be and why things are wrong, along with never giving any upbeat opinion..........that is the one eyed view and not a personal insult on you or you mother.

Not sure where you are going to lose money yourself though? I would expect that you will get the best rate on the day you transfer. Personally I would of been better off changing my money from AU$ to UK today rather than when I did but I do not see it as money I have lost.

Regarding the Judiciary, well we all know they do not get it right every time hence the appeals procedures, luckily the UK has this system enabling errors to be corrected or dismissed.

[Keith and Linda]

No, the childish posters are those who insist on bringing everything down to the level of playground taunts. "Kicking and screaming in the sweet aisle?" What does that add to any discussion? Can you not find a way to express yourself without resorting to overused and frankly boring references to your mis spent childhood?

 

It is not hard to reason with most of the posters on here - but people do get irritated by the tit for tat nonsense that passes for debate with a lot of posters. I've been guilty of it myself and know that its a fault of mine, its so tempting to retaliate in that way, especially when people leave themselves wide open by making daft jibes in the first place.

 

But sniping has no place in a sensible discussion, we all know that really. Don't we?

 

Press the ignore button then!

[kungfustu]

Why can't we have a reasoned discussion with a recognition of the validity of other peoples opinions without resorting to this kind of abusive silliness.

 

What.....like an intelligent discussion in which all opinions are accepted and everyone's views.....leave or remain.....are respected?.......I think posts like the one below have kind of put some people off......

 

The problem that now becomes clearer and clearer is that the thickos who are obsessed with sovereignty and immigration had no thought for the complexities of being an independent trading nation in a globalised world, not only no thought but no understanding, they thought we could just go back to the good 'ole' Empire days'.

As I said 'thickos.

[flag of convenience]

What.....like an intelligent discussion in which all opinions are accepted and everyone's views.....leave or remain.....are respected?.......I think posts like the one below have kind of put some people off......

 

Well just a shame thickness doesn't come in different sizes then. When it has been shown that the main doubters only had own ambition in mind, I'd say a lot were well and truly snagged on the line of lies and falsehoods together with a load of Murdoch incited angst, I'm not awfully sure how to put it nicely.

[BacktoDemocracy]

No it is not, but acceptance of the result is, simple as................like it or not!

So the silent majority that allowed the rise of fascism in Germany were right to keep their mouths shut as they saw referendums used to strip out the protections of democracy and individual rights.

 

We now have a situation where a sloppily drawn referendum proposal was exploited by politicians who campaigned on a pure populist platform without any concern for truth and only for their own advancement and in Farage's case on racial superiority opposed by a man who was more concerned about not making any enemies, and we are now supposed to allow a prime minister to centralise all decision making into her hands on the back of a very iffy referendum, sounds way too much like Nazi Germany circa 1934.

 

So yes I will continue to protest at the result of this so called democratic decision, the way that this whole thing happened is just so reminiscent of the Nazi era as to be unbelievable, it illustrates why Germany's constitution does not recognise referenda, because populism can be so easily exploited.

[BacktoDemocracy]

What.....like an intelligent discussion in which all opinions are accepted and everyone's views.....leave or remain.....are respected?.......I think posts like the one below have kind of put some people off......

 

Did you think I would not remember what I have posted and not check back tho this thread to verify that those are not my words, BUT IF THE CAP FITS THEN WEAR IT.

[KathB35]

the sweet isle

 

Is this a reference to what used to be the UK, much as Ireland is referred to as the Emerald Isle....?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kungfustu]

Did you think I would not remember what I have posted and not check back tho this thread to verify that those are not my words, BUT IF THE CAP FITS THEN WEAR IT.

 

Are you shouting at me?

 

Unfortunately they are your words from another Brexit thread.....this is what makes this all the funnier.....you complain about bitchy comments interfering with a good healthy debate yet you indulge in those very same bitchy comments on the same topic......with the same posters......on other threads......but expect them to now have a clean and healthy debate now that it suits you......Brilliant!

[Guest The Pom Queen]

I haven't read all this thread as after the first page of "he said, she said" and silly bickering I got fed up. Please stop with the personal comments. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion you can't change their thinking so either discuss it like grown ups or move along. Anymore and the mods have my permission to close the thread or issue infractions.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Are you shouting at me?

 

Unfortunately they are your words from another Brexit thread.....this is what makes this all the funnier.....you complain about bitchy comments interfering with a good healthy debate yet you indulge in those very same bitchy comments on the same topic......with the same posters......on other threads......but expect them to now have a clean and healthy debate now that it suits you......Brilliant!

Sorry I did say that, my apologies, I must have been having a red mist day.

I do usually try to avoid that kind of language but it was taken out of another thread where the debate had also sunk because of continued silliness.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Well with your negativity and concentration on personal attacks you ( and you know who you are) have closed down another thread when commentary started to make your entrenched positions look less and less like choices based on some rational thought.

 

This reflects the antics of Trump, Farage and a whole plethora of authoritarian extremes who do not want anybody to understand that they simply want power for their own nefarious ends; avoiding taxation; freedom to make money out of us, the citizens; freedom for them to do dirty little deals without scrutiny; freedom to exploit the planet without any constraints all whilst convincing ' the white working class' that they are acting in their best interests.

Edited November 8, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[Fisher1]

The thread hasn't actually been closed down ... But I don't think there's much further we can go with it. The only thing to come out of this discussion is that people think very differently and some people are very rude about it. It's a shame though.

[Keith and Linda]

Is this a reference to what used to be the UK, much as Ireland is referred to as the Emerald Isle....?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the spell check, I will try and turn mine off now!

[Keith and Linda]

So the silent majority that allowed the rise of fascism in Germany were right to keep their mouths shut as they saw referendums used to strip out the protections of democracy and individual rights.

 

We now have a situation where a sloppily drawn referendum proposal was exploited by politicians who campaigned on a pure populist platform without any concern for truth and only for their own advancement and in Farage's case on racial superiority opposed by a man who was more concerned about not making any enemies, and we are now supposed to allow a prime minister to centralise all decision making into her hands on the back of a very iffy referendum, sounds way too much like Nazi Germany circa 1934.

 

So yes I will continue to protest at the result of this so called democratic decision, the way that this whole thing happened is just so reminiscent of the Nazi era as to be unbelievable, it illustrates why Germany's constitution does not recognize referenda, because populism can be so easily exploited.

 

So to date we have had............. Fascism in Germany, Nazi Germany, Nazi era, British Colonialism, British empire, racial superiority, white working class, iffy/sloppy referendum and conspiracy theories! all brought into the this general topic by which group? and some expect reasoned debate?

[newjez]

All quiet on the brexit front till Xmas methinks.

[BacktoDemocracy]

So to date we have had............. Fascism in Germany, Nazi Germany, Nazi era, British Colonialism, British empire, racial superiority, white working class, iffy/sloppy referendum and conspiracy theories! all brought into the this general topic by which group? and some expect reasoned debate?

There's an old dictum, those who fail to heed history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

[Fisher1]

So to date we have had............. Fascism in Germany, Nazi Germany, Nazi era, British Colonialism, British empire, racial superiority, white working class, iffy/sloppy referendum and conspiracy theories! all brought into the this general topic by which group? and some expect reasoned debate?

 

Once again, it's a shame. I don't think there is any one group bringing all theses topics into this thread, just individuals wanting to try and make sense of the huge changes that are in progress. As I've said before, your country is Australia now, and not involved in the European Union withdrawal, so it must be difficult for you to understand how it feels to be living in Europe at this time.

 

People who believe that our involvement with Europe was not helpful, are obviously going to be feeling really pleased, while those who feel the association offered more positives than negatives are feeling upset, disappointed and worried about how it's going to turn out. I think those people welcome the involvement of parliament in the negotiations as an extra layer of protection against hasty and I'll thought out decisions.

 

I have to admit, I believe the referendum was sloppy and that the campaign leading up to the vote was a disgrace, with both sides seemingly having carte Blanche to claim the moon was made of green cheese if it would secure them a vote.

 

As for all the references to Hitler, this may seem like mass hysteria to someone living so far away, but there has been an atmosphere of racial tension building up, helped along no end by Nigel Farage. There are some tenuous parallels with the rise of the nazis, and I find it quite frightening to see how quickly incidences of racism seem to have increased.

 

While many of us are never going to agree about any of this, we nevertheless can address each other with respect and avoid the kind of contentious ridiculing and unpleasantness that has been a feature of many threads on this site recently.

[Perthbum]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Keith and Linda]

Once again, it's a shame. I don't think there is any one group bringing all theses topics into this thread, just individuals wanting to try and make sense of the huge changes that are in progress. As I've said before, your country is Australia now, and not involved in the European Union withdrawal, so it must be difficult for you to understand how it feels to be living in Europe at this time.

 

People who believe that our involvement with Europe was not helpful, are obviously going to be feeling really pleased, while those who feel the association offered more positives than negatives are feeling upset, disappointed and worried about how it's going to turn out. I think those people welcome the involvement of parliament in the negotiations as an extra layer of protection against hasty and I'll thought out decisions.

 

I have to admit, I believe the referendum was sloppy and that the campaign leading up to the vote was a disgrace, with both sides seemingly having carte Blanche to claim the moon was made of green cheese if it would secure them a vote.

 

As for all the references to Hitler, this may seem like mass hysteria to someone living so far away, but there has been an atmosphere of racial tension building up, helped along no end by Nigel Farage. There are some tenuous parallels with the rise of the nazis, and I find it quite frightening to see how quickly incidences of racism seem to have increased.

While many of us are never going to agree about any of this, we nevertheless can address each other with respect and avoid the kind of contentious ridiculing and unpleasantness that has been a feature of many threads on this site recently.

 

Just another big assumption and guess work on your part. Followed up with some scare mongering.

I have close and many extended family and friends both in the north and southwest of the UK and the feeling from them is more up-beat with no real worries of looming, short, medium or long term disaster, hurdles to cross yes but they are not insurmountable.

Racism is and has always, to a lessor or greater degree, being a sad part of life and something the EU has not being able to eradicate either.

[Keith and Linda]

There's an old dictum, those who fail to heed history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

 

There is also 'History in the making'

[Fisher1]

Just another big assumption and guess work on your part. Followed up with some scare mongering.

I have close and many extended family and friends both in the north and southwest of the UK and the feeling from them is more up-beat with no real worries of looming, short, medium or long term disaster, hurdles to cross yes but they are not insurmountable.

Racism is and has always, to a lessor or greater degree, being a sad part of life and something the EU has not being able to eradicate either.

 

 

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Having close friends and family in this country is no substitute for actually living here, and at such a distance you cannot experience current affairs in the same way as someone living here.

 

I'm glad to hear that your friends and family are feeling up beat and have no real worries, that must be nice for them. However, you group of contacts are unlikely to be numerous enough to form a representative sample of the UK population. That being the case, their opinions are subjective and hold no more weight than my own equally subjective views and those of anyone else commenting on here.

 

Sorry if that upsets you but as I said at the end of my last post, we are unlikely to be able to ever agree on these things so why not just let it lie now?

[ramot]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Having close friends and family in this country is no substitute for actually living here, and at such a distance you cannot experience current affairs in the same way as someone living here.

 

I'm glad to hear that your friends and family are feeling up beat and have no real worries, that must be nice for them. However, you group of contacts are unlikely to be numerous enough to form a representative sample of the UK population. That being the case, their opinions are subjective and hold no more weight than my own equally subjective views and those of anyone else commenting on here.

 

Sorry if that upsets you but as I said at the end of my last post, we are unlikely to be able to ever agree on these things so why not just let it lie now?

 

Out of interest if you move to Australia shortly, will you still feel that you will be entitled to comment about UK affairs?

 

we also have family and many friends in UK, plus property and who knows might move back one day, so although I haven't joined in much on this thread, I do also get a sense of what they are thinking and I should be allowed to contribute, it is a forum for every ones opinion isn't it?