So Brexit now needs parliamentary approval?

[amibovered]

It doesn't matter who wanted what, the referendum was clear cut, more people voted out than in.[/quote

 

The referendum was clear cut and more people did vote out than in.

 

However, it could be argued that the format of the referendum voting paper was anything but clear cut, since there was no obvious text explaining the plan for withdrawal should that be the decision of the majority.

 

So now we need to know what that plan is. We have (rather naively) bought into something without first checking the details of the deal. A bit like buying a car on credit without checking the interest rates.

 

Luckily, this period prior to actioning article 50 can be likened to a cooling off period. We can still check what will be involved and make sure we don't agree to anything that is bad for us. Since it would be unweildy and expensive to organise another referendum asking our views on every single point in any prospective deal, we can use parliament - our elected representatives that is - to ... Er ... Represent us.

 

This strikes me as a far better prospect than relying on Teresa May free reign to organise whatever she likes with the aid of a small group of Tory MPs and without anyone else having any say at all. She should be feeling relieved right now, to know the burden will be shared.

 

I take your point, but in a negotiation you have to be a bit cagey if you want to get the best deal, giving away what we are after before the negotiations will cost us big time.

[Perthbum]

I'm going to take issue with this whole "will of the people" thing, because it's making it out as though there's a massive majority in favour of Brexit. There isn't.

 

Prior to the referendum opinion was roughly split three ways: Just over a third wanted to remain, just under a third wanted to leave, and the rest were undecided. And as we all know, leave won by a small amount. Boris himself concluded, "And yet we who agreed with this majority verdict must accept that it was not entirely overwhelming."

 

Leave supporters frequently claim that if the referendum was re-run, they'd still win, but with a greater majority. This isn't supported by the polls. In fact, this chart, from the LSE's Brexit blog, shows how opinion has shifted since the vote.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34286[/ATTACH]

 

In fact, there is evidence that:

 

 

• Opinion has shifted against Brexit since the referendum.

• Non-voters favoured remain over leave.

 

I suspect that a lot of the leaders of the Leave camp know the above, hence there's been a strong desire not to have a second ballot or election prior to the UK exiting the EU.

 

I don't know what the solution is, and think it's a political Kobayashi Maru scenario. The referendum was won on a 52% vote for Brexit, and it's likely that opinion now is at a similar level against. That suggests the country is divided down the middle, rather than there being a consensus, and I think that's what Theresa May should be looking for. Perhaps we stay and attempt reform of the EU, perhaps we leave, or maybe there's a third path (e.g. EFTA membership) that we take instead.

 

 

 

 

YOU CANNOT SAY AFTER YOU HAVE VOTED THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND :twitcy: SO IF YOU VOTE ON ANYTHING YOU CAN DEMAND A RE-VOTE BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE THE RESULT....IF WE DO NOT LEAVE THE EU AFTER THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTED FOR IT THEN DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY ID DEAD....CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER VOTE ON THE LAST ELECTION BECAUSE THE TORIES LIED ABOUT SO MANY THINGS OR THE ONE BEFORE WHEN THEY SAID THERE WOULD BE NO TUTION FEES BUT THERE WAS AFTER THEY GOT IT.....SORRY BUT THE WHINGING LOESER NEED TO SHUT UP...THEY LOST THE VOTE.

[Rallyman]

Can we have a re run of when Thather won because I think more people disliked her than this vote to leave

The whole thing is turning into a circus act.

[newjez]

 

I take your point, but in a negotiation you have to be a bit cagey if you want to get the best deal, giving away what we are after before the negotiations will cost us big time.

not necessarily. In some negotiations it makes life a hell of a lot easier if you know what the other party wants and what is important to them. Clear out all the fuss, and cut to the chase. You have to remember, we don't have time for a bespoke agreement. That will come later. Both sides should lay their cards on the table. Time is critical.

[newjez]

YOU CANNOT SAY AFTER YOU HAVE VOTED THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND :twitcy: SO IF YOU VOTE ON ANYTHING YOU CAN DEMAND A RE-VOTE BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE THE RESULT....IF WE DO NOT LEAVE THE EU AFTER THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE VOTED FOR IT THEN DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY ID DEAD....CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER VOTE ON THE LAST ELECTION BECAUSE THE TORIES LIED ABOUT SO MANY THINGS OR THE ONE BEFORE WHEN THEY SAID THERE WOULD BE NO TUTION FEES BUT THERE WAS AFTER THEY GOT IT.....SORRY BUT THE WHINGING LOESER NEED TO SHUT UP...THEY LOST THE VOTE.

we do. Every five years. Much more frequently in Australia. Why can't we change our minds? With all the lies told by both sides, how the hell could anyone vote rationally?

 

So, if people overwhelmingly change there minds, we should proceed regardless? Why do you think that makes sense?

Edited November 6, 2016 by newjez

[newjez]

Can we have a re run of when Thather won because I think more people disliked her than this vote to leave

The whole thing is turning into a circus act.

we did. From memory she won those too.

[Gbye grey sky]

Though I remain convinced that an exit from the single market without a favourable trade deal with the EU would be economically really bad for the UK, at least in the short/medium term I still believe this is now the far more likely outcome.

 

The litmus test is the exchange rate which is barely affected by any news other than how this issue is likely to go. And the recent court ruling has improved the GBP by only about 2%. This suggests the markets are highly sceptical that the UK will be able to achieve a favourable deal from Brexit.

 

Too many people are far too wrapped up in the UKs position assuming that is the most relevant. The EU, meanwhile, must favour the Hard Brexit option as this will send the strongest signal that leaving the EU is a recipe for financial calamity. It is the best chance for the EU to remain intact.

[newjez]

Though I remain convinced that an exit from the single market without a favourable trade deal with the EU would be economically really bad for the UK, at least in the short/medium term I still believe this is now the far more likely outcome.

 

The litmus test is the exchange rate which is barely affected by any news other than how this issue is likely to go. And the recent court ruling has improved the GBP by only about 2%. This suggests the markets are highly sceptical that the UK will be able to achieve a favourable deal from Brexit.

 

Too many people are far too wrapped up in the UKs position assuming that is the most relevant. The EU, meanwhile, must favour the Hard Brexit option as this will send the strongest signal that leaving the EU is a recipe for financial calamity. It is the best chance for the EU to remain intact.

that is the worry

[BacktoDemocracy]

Though I remain convinced that an exit from the single market without a favourable trade deal with the EU would be economically really bad for the UK, at least in the short/medium term I still believe this is now the far more likely outcome.

 

The litmus test is the exchange rate which is barely affected by any news other than how this issue is likely to go. And the recent court ruling has improved the GBP by only about 2%. This suggests the markets are highly sceptical that the UK will be able to achieve a favourable deal from Brexit.

 

Too many people are far too wrapped up in the UKs position assuming that is the most relevant. The EU, meanwhile, must favour the Hard Brexit option as this will send the strongest signal that leaving the EU is a recipe for financial calamity. It is the best chance for the EU to remain intact.

 

I fear that is exactly right and something which has concerned me from the outset, I am afraid that any goodwill has been lost by idiots like Farage and Rees Mogg and May it seems has no real plan other than buying industries off as required and trying to cobble goodwill together with any country that looks in need of trade, unfortunately even India seems to be being circumspect.

[Gbye grey sky]

Yes. I really don't think you need a crystal ball to conclude that the EU are not going to budge on the free movement of people as a pre-requisite for continued access to the single market. Two years potentially of 'negotiations' would result in Brexit with no trade deal with the UKs largest trading block and any trade deal would potentially take many years or even decades.

 

Some see this as an opportunity for the UK to strike trade deals elsewhere but the UK will be desperate for these and desperation does not give the UK a strong hand. I see that India are looking to link free movement of people and easier access to visas to a trade deal for instance. The problem with trade deals is that you have to have things that suit the other party more than you.

 

Maybe there are some with law degrees etc who feel they know better but have had little or no experience of negotiations. I have, and they are bloody hard. It helps if you don't go into them with the view that you are numero uno and everyone should kowtow to the 6th largest economy and the founder of the British Empire with the 2nd highest medal tally in the Olympics etc.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Yes. I really don't think you need a crystal ball to conclude that the EU are not going to budge on the free movement of people as a pre-requisite for continued access to the single market. Two years potentially of 'negotiations' would result in Brexit with no trade deal with the UKs largest trading block and any trade deal would potentially take many years or even decades.

 

Some see this as an opportunity for the UK to strike trade deals elsewhere but the UK will be desperate for these and desperation does not give the UK a strong hand. I see that India are looking to link free movement of people and easier access to visas to a trade deal for instance. The problem with trade deals is that you have to have things that suit the other party more than you.

 

Maybe there are some with law degrees etc who feel they know better but have had little or no experience of negotiations. I have, and they are bloody hard. It helps if you don't go into them with the view that you are numero uno and everyone should kowtow to the 6th largest economy and the founder of the British Empire with the 2nd highest medal tally in the Olympics etc.

 

Yes they want access to universities and family visas, bang goes the immigration figures, it looks like a grander and grander f*ck up,May might be wanting an election to lose soon.

[Gbye grey sky]

The irony of reading the posts on this forum is that all those who think that the UK is the absolute 'bees-knees' are the advocates of change. Presumably because they think the best place to live in the whole world can be even better outside the EU. Or perhaps they really thought otherwise. Hubris springs to mind.

[newjez]

The irony of reading the posts on this forum is that all those who think that the UK is the absolute 'bees-knees' are the advocates of change. Presumably because they think the best place to live in the whole world can be even better outside the EU. Or perhaps they really thought otherwise. Hubris springs to mind.

I met a traveller from an antique land

Who said: `Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,

Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.

And on the pedestal these words appear --

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.'

[BacktoDemocracy]

The irony of reading the posts on this forum is that all those who think that the UK is the absolute 'bees-knees' are the advocates of change. Presumably because they think the best place to live in the whole world can be even better outside the EU. Or perhaps they really thought otherwise. Hubris springs to mind.

 

No I think great belief in conspiracy theories that were fed by the likes of Johnson and Farage who had no interest in democracy or the country, just personal aggrandisement.

[akiralx]

The Brexit Prayer:

 

Our Brexit, which sounds like heaven,

hallowed be thy name.

Our kingdom free;

our will be dumb,

on earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day our Daily Mail.

And forgive us our nationalism

as we will blame those foreigners amongst us.

And lead us not into free movement;

but deliver us from Brussels.

For thine is the story,

the loony, and the glory,

for ever and ever.

Get over it.

Edited November 7, 2016 by akiralx

[Keith and Linda]

The irony of reading the posts on this forum is that all those who think that the UK is the absolute 'bees-knees' are the advocates of change. Presumably because they think the best place to live in the whole world can be even better outside the EU. Or perhaps they really thought otherwise. Hubris springs to mind.

 

Not sure that anyone on this forum has claimed the UK to be the absolute 'bees-knees', they may claim that things will work out and be all right, but definitely not any claims to utopia! but the doom and gloomers definitely do have a lot to say on and over exaggerating on how bad and wrong things are/will be. A classic example of over exaggeration is highlighted above!

[Keith and Linda]

No I think great belief in conspiracy theories that were fed by the likes of Johnson and Farage who had no interest in democracy or the country, just personal aggrandisement.

 

This is getting loonier and loonier! conspiracy theories:wacko:

[Gbye grey sky]

Not sure that anyone on this forum has claimed the UK to be the absolute 'bees-knees', they may claim that things will work out and be all right, but definitely not any claims to utopia! but the doom and gloomers definitely do have a lot to say on and over exaggerating on how bad and wrong things are/will be. A classic example of over exaggeration is highlighted above!

 

I do appreciate your position. As someone who is planning to buy a holiday home in the UK using AUD then Brexit is a no-brainer as you will get a lot more for your money. And you do not need a job there either.

 

The people I struggle with are the likes of VS, PB, BM and others who have returned to the UK and sung its praises to the high heavens for years with no acknowledgement that this nirvana was in the EU.

[Keith and Linda]

I do appreciate your position. As someone who is planning to buy a holiday home in the UK using AUD then Brexit is a no-brainer as you will get a lot more for your money. And you do not need a job there either.

 

The people I struggle with are the likes of VS, PB, BM and others who have returned to the UK and sung its praises to the high heavens for years with no acknowledgement that this nirvana was in the EU.

 

But you did say ALL and it is these sort of statements along with the apparent seriousness of doom and gloom promoted by many, and the derogatory remarks by the same on those whose free choice does not align with theirs, which gets up my nose because it make things definitive - the end all & be all - and that is just so so wrong. The volume of rhetoric praising the UK falls way way below that of the dooms dayers, and is no way as honey coated as the doom predictions are venomous.

 

PS Not sure where you dreamed it up? but to put the record straight before it gets stretched out of all proportions, I will be needing, as opposed to wanting, to find a job when I am in the UK.

[newjez]

 

This is getting loonier and loonier! conspiracy theories:wacko:

to be fair, I think both sides lied though their teeth, and there didn't seem to be any overseeing body to take either side to task. It was a ridiculous situation. Never seen an election run like that. Poor form all over. Stunts like the fishing boats in the Thames with geldoff abusing them were just a farce.

[Gbye grey sky]

But you did say ALL and it is these sort of statements along with the apparent seriousness of doom and gloom promoted by many, and the derogatory remarks by the same on those whose free choice does not align with theirs, which gets up my nose because it make things definitive - the end all & be all - and that is just so so wrong. The volume of rhetoric praising the UK falls way way below that of the dooms dayers, and is no way as honey coated as the doom predictions are venomous.

 

PS Not sure where you dreamed it up? but to put the record straight before it gets stretched out of all proportions, I will be needing, as opposed to wanting, to find a job when I am in the UK.

 

I said "all" because I meant all. And by "all" I was referring to the posters (of whom I mentioned 3 of the most vociferous over many years) that have never, to my acknowledge, indicated in thousands of posts that Britain was anything other than the best place to live, work, bring up a family etc etc. It turns out that "all" of these people now believe that the UK is going to be better off outside the EU. Why anyone would want to mess with perfection is beyond me.....unless secretly they had never really liked their life in the UK anyway perhaps.

[flag of convenience]

This is getting loonier and loonier! conspiracy theories:wacko:

 

I wonder what it takes for the truth to dawn? Of course both parties mentioned were propelled by self interest. Neither wanted out nor expected the result. Well documented.

[flag of convenience]

to be fair, I think both sides lied though their teeth, and there didn't seem to be any overseeing body to take either side to task. It was a ridiculous situation. Never seen an election run like that. Poor form all over. Stunts like the fishing boats in the Thames with geldoff abusing them were just a farce.

 

It show the ever declining dividends of democracy.

[Gbye grey sky]

It show the ever declining dividends of democracy.

 

"the ever declining dividends of democracy". A great turn of phrase and sums up where we appear to be heading right now. So many low points in democracy right now.

[Keith and Linda]

to be fair, I think both sides lied though their teeth, and there didn't seem to be any overseeing body to take either side to task. It was a ridiculous situation. Never seen an election run like that. Poor form all over. Stunts like the fishing boats in the Thames with geldoff abusing them were just a farce.

 

I Know that newjez but my post was in response to the very much singular opine of one of the many doom and gloom merchants who steadfastly refuse to accept such a bilateral view and now try to bolster their view by throwing conspiracy theories in to the mix..............and they really expect people to believe them:wacko: