eu referendum update

[janlo]

In Manchester, England. My son lives there, near the Uni and says it is dreadful - looks like Calais. However, the occupants are mainly Lithuanians and other Eastern Europeans.[ATTACH=CONFIG]33665[/ATTACH] It has also been a feature in newspapers and on TV.

 

Yes it's true. They interviewed them, they were saying they still wanted to stay in the UK despite their unfortunate situation. It was a couple of months ago but they're probably still there.

[bunbury61]

I knew you were a fascist but now I also think you are a loony.

 

That's libellous ...you don't even know me ....because I disagree with your opinion you start throwing around unfounded insults .

We can take it further if you like .

[bunbury61]

I knew you were a fascist but now I also think you are a loony.

 

And what qualifies me as a fascist about my previous statement ? ...or a loony for that matter .

[bunbury61]

And what qualifies me as a fascist about my previous statement ? ...or a loony for that matter .

 

So for the record

 

I believe in equal rights and pay for women

Freedom of sexuality

Freedom of religion

 

What I don't agree with is uncontrolled migration into the u.k

 

John Mann outspoken labour m.p has this week come out on the side of brexot stating Tha he doesn't want to live in a country of 80 or 90 million

 

That's not a fascist statement ,that's commonsense

[Gbye grey sky]

So for the record

 

I believe in equal rights and pay for women

Freedom of sexuality

Freedom of religion

 

What I don't agree with is uncontrolled migration into the u.k

 

John Mann outspoken labour m.p has this week come out on the side of brexot stating Tha he doesn't want to live in a country of 80 or 90 million

 

That's not a fascist statement ,that's commonsense

 

Labelling someone as a fascist simply because they hold a different though perfectly acceptable view is awful.

 

Concerns about uncontrolled migration are legitimate. Whether the consequences of voting to Leave turn out to be far worse is something I suspect we will start to find out soon and then over the coming months and years.

 

The one thing I would ask all those who are shouting to leave is to at least take their share of the responsibility for the consequences of their decision and not blame the resulting recession, increased unemployment, currency devaluation etc on something or someone else once the EU scapegoat has been cast off.

 

 

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[BacktoDemocracy]

Labelling someone as a fascist simply because they hold a different though perfectly acceptable view is awful.

 

Concerns about uncontrolled migration are legitimate. Whether the consequences of voting to Leave turn out to be far worse is something I suspect we will start to find out soon and then over the coming months and years.

 

The one thing I would ask all those who are shouting to leave is to at least take their share of the responsibility for the consequences of their decision and not blame the resulting recession, increased unemployment, currency devaluation etc on something or someone else once the EU scapegoat has been cast off.

 

 

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Of course not, it will all be the dastardly fault of the Germans and the French picking on us and the IMF refusing to bail us out and how all those overseas bankers moving to Frankfort have plunged us into recession and how nobody can afford to go to Spain because the Spanish have made the Pound worth 90 cents.

And nobody knows how to build anything since all those poles were sent packing and Amazon have stopped delivering in England now there no eastern Europeans to pick orders

And it'll having nothing to do with farmers going out of business because they can't harvest anything with these useless school leavers.

And when you get to hospital and there are just these 1st year medical students looking after you because all these doctors and nurses have had their visas revoked and you can't recruit from all over the world.

It will be the fault of all those Scots and Irish wanting to be in the EU and how we have to have customs posts and immigration officers on all these roads and everywhere with a harbour.

What else will there be, how no one can afford French cheese now there's a surcharge on it and isn't terrible how there's no research done at any of the universities except Oxbridge and how is poor Oliver ever going to get into drugs research now.

Come on it'll be nothing to do with sticking 2 fingers up to the EU will it but look we still have all those ermine robes when they open parliament and isn't it such a spectacle and nobody has anything like that so they?.

Edited June 12, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[newjez]

Ko

Of course not, it will all be the dastardly fault of the Germans and the French picking on us and the IMF refusing to bail us out and how all those overseas bankers moving to Frankfort have plunged us into recession and how nobody can afford to go to Spain because the Spanish have made the Pound worth 90 cents.

And it'll having nothing to do with farmers going out of business because they can't harvest anything with these useless school leavers.

And when you get to hospital and there are just these 1st year medical students looking after you because all these doctors and nurses have had their visas revoked and you can't recruit from all over the world.

Come on it'll be nothing to do with sticking 2 fingers up to the EU will it.

 

 

You won't be going to hospital unless you have private cover as there won't be an NHS. Well, not one we recognise anyway.

[Johndoe]

Just thinking out loud here 'cause I'm home alone, have insomnia and had a few bevvies to alleviate (hopefully)

 

When I was a tiddlywink I remember folk whingeing about "those darkies"...............they brought 'em in from the West Indies to drive and conduct London buses...............shortage of Brit labour....................happy we were to have 'em too.............then the hospitals were full of "darkies" but they were a different kind of darkie..........they called 'em Packies, even though some were from India, sri lanka (Ceylon as it was then), Uganda and other places..............they were sort of black but didn't have curly hair............nevertheless..........despite some die hard Mosleyites and Powellites, The UK "ticked over"

 

The UK has always been a (relatively) welcoming place for Commonwealth immigrants............so what's the beef about immigration? My view.......whether you want/like it or not...........those "darkies" always were an Alf Garnet type of aberration. Most Brits didn't give a toss...........they just got on with their lives.....as did the immigrants...........and, believe it or not, from my memory, this included immigrants from Muslim countries................a bit of "ghettoisation" yes, but mainly due to financial demographic/housing as opposed to a deliberate attempt at non-integration.

 

The current problems arise, IMHO from the West's support for Israel, and the UN's impotence to act on Israel's war crimes such as the demolition of any homes related to the family of terrorists................collective punishment outlawed under UN Charter. This, and other infringements of the human rights of Palestinians. The Arab world has "matured" from seeing Palestinians under threat, to seeing Muslims under threat

 

We are not in a "race war" we are in a "religious war" whereby races that would normally co-exist, irrespective of race, albeit occasionally with friction, see themselves not under attack as a race, but as a religion. Fatah has proved impotent since the death of Yasser Araphat and indeed, in some situations has seemed complicit in furthering Israel's motives/ideals..................shades of Michael Collins betrayal of the United Irish cause?

 

Involvement in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan by the west, added to the above, is pure ammunition for skilled orators preaching to generally uneducated and disenfranchised masses in those particular theatres, and then subsequently, the West's military "domination" is portrayed on western tv and absorbed..............yes by muslims.............their creed/bible stating that "infidels" (non muslims.......or if you're a sunni, shias) should not occupy your land.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, The West, with all it's technology, couldn't wipe out Isil in it's infancy when it was travelling in convoy in it's infancy before it grew? There's a reason why it didn't......probably beyond the normal person's thinking, but someone/some cartel/country had something to gain by ISIL being allowed to flourish when any fool could see that in it's infancy a couple of Apache helicopters could've wiped it out in minutes

 

So what has this got to do with the EU referendum? In my mind, the out campaign seems to have focused on immigration but has emphasised not only the "Romania et al problem" but the "Muslim problem". The "muslim problem" has feck all to do with the EU. In fact, outside of the EU it would be likely less of a problem because we wouldn't have to side with the European countries in sorting out problems in their ex colonies that have a muslim population............yes I know that a NATO thing but don't expect me to accept that Nato and EEC aren't in the same bed..............so...............that leaves european immigration??????????????? You don't need 'em...............if you do?...............then why the feck aren't you training British youth to fill the gap?

[Pommie]

Whilst I understand and respect views from both sides of the debate, for me it comes down to economic sense (I am sorry, the accountant in me does come out at times).

We (Britain and Europe for that matter) are still trying to dig ourselves out of the 2008 GFC (global financial recession). Despite the 8 years of austerity measures, as a country we are still spending more every year than we earn, which is why the national debt continues to rise. The good (or maybe slightly better news) is that over the last two or three years, Britain has generally been heading on the right economic path. More families are in employment, the economy is growing and with low levels of inflation and the UK being seen as a relatively stable economy, the government can essentially re-mortgage its debt at a cheaper rate.

 

What does all this mean - well, after nearly a decade of recession or recession like conditions (stemming from the biggest recession since WW2), we can see on the horizon a path to beginning to be able to pay down the government debt. Less debt means less interest and hence more money to lower taxes, raise pensions and increase funding into the NHS.

 

We pay GBP 43 billion a year to service the debt, without repaying a penny of the debt. That could do a lot of good to the HNS and other public services.... If you vote to leave we will have an economic crash (whether big or small, no one knows). So debt will rise further and this needs funding somehow !?!?

 

The debate on the TV today (Andrew Marr show) was around whether a decision to leave will cause a major recession or a minor recession. HELLO !!! on the back of what is already shaping up to be a lost decade of growth for many, why would we voluntarily vote for a recession of any kind ??

 

Some decisions are not about right or wrong, but about timing. The UK needs another recession like a hole in the head....

 

And for those who somehow believe the doomsayers are just making this up, you need to understand how global markets and global investors work. They can choose to invest money in lots of different places. They balance risk and reward in their business decisions. Also, many companies invest in the UK to obtain free access to the wider EU economies. At best people will delay investment (which costs jobs) and at worst they will move the investment away from the UK.

 

Even if we lost investment for say 2 years, the impact will be huge on jobs, on families, and on today's students.... and when unemployment rises and taxes fall, on the NHS and on Pensions, etc....

 

I understand the sentiment to vote out and I don't for a second believe Europe doesn't have its own problems... But you work with it to fix the issues rather than picking your ball up and walking off the pitch.

 

In a recent survey, approx 75% of people acknowledged that the UK will be economically worse off if we vote to leave (jobs, investment, etc), yet only around 40% believed they may be impacted..!! This is the "It won't happen to me" syndrome.

 

 

Well, it doesn't have to... it depends how you vote....

[newjez]

Just thinking out loud here 'cause I'm home alone, have insomnia and had a few bevvies to alleviate (hopefully)

 

When I was a tiddlywink I remember folk whingeing about "those darkies"...............they brought 'em in from the West Indies to drive and conduct London buses...............shortage of Brit labour....................happy we were to have 'em too.............then the hospitals were full of "darkies" but they were a different kind of darkie..........they called 'em Packies, even though some were from India, sri lanka (Ceylon as it was then), Uganda and other places..............they were sort of black but didn't have curly hair............nevertheless..........despite some die hard Mosleyites and Powellites, The UK "ticked over"

 

The UK has always been a (relatively) welcoming place for Commonwealth immigrants............so what's the beef about immigration? My view.......whether you want/like it or not...........those "darkies" always were an Alf Garnet type of aberration. Most Brits didn't give a toss...........they just got on with their lives.....as did the immigrants...........and, believe it or not, from my memory, this included immigrants from Muslim countries................a bit of "ghettoisation" yes, but mainly due to financial demographic/housing as opposed to a deliberate attempt at non-integration.

 

The current problems arise, IMHO from the West's support for Israel, and the UN's impotence to act on Israel's war crimes such as the demolition of any homes related to the family of terrorists................collective punishment outlawed under UN Charter. This, and other infringements of the human rights of Palestinians. The Arab world has "matured" from seeing Palestinians under threat, to seeing Muslims under threat

 

We are not in a "race war" we are in a "religious war" whereby races that would normally co-exist, irrespective of race, albeit occasionally with friction, see themselves not under attack as a race, but as a religion. Fatah has proved impotent since the death of Yasser Araphat and indeed, in some situations has seemed complicit in furthering Israel's motives/ideals..................shades of Michael Collins betrayal of the United Irish cause?

 

Involvement in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan by the west, added to the above, is pure ammunition for skilled orators preaching to generally uneducated and disenfranchised masses in those particular theatres, and then subsequently, the West's military "domination" is portrayed on western tv and absorbed..............yes by muslims.............their creed/bible stating that "infidels" (non muslims.......or if you're a sunni, shias) should not occupy your land.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, The West, with all it's technology, couldn't wipe out Isil in it's infancy when it was travelling in convoy in it's infancy before it grew? There's a reason why it didn't......probably beyond the normal person's thinking, but someone/some cartel/country had something to gain by ISIL being allowed to flourish when any fool could see that in it's infancy a couple of Apache helicopters could've wiped it out in minutes

 

So what has this got to do with the EU referendum? In my mind, the out campaign seems to have focused on immigration but has emphasised not only the "Romania et al problem" but the "Muslim problem". The "muslim problem" has feck all to do with the EU. In fact, outside of the EU it would be likely less of a problem because we wouldn't have to side with the European countries in sorting out problems in their ex colonies that have a muslim population............yes I know that a NATO thing but don't expect me to accept that Nato and EEC aren't in the same bed..............so...............that leaves european immigration??????????????? You don't need 'em...............if you do?...............then why the feck aren't you training British youth to fill the gap?

 

You're not that pissed, because that made a lot of sense.

[newjez]

Whilst I understand and respect views from both sides of the debate, for me it comes down to economic sense (I am sorry, the accountant in me does come out at times).

We (Britain and Europe for that matter) are still trying to dig ourselves out of the 2008 GFC (global financial recession). Despite the 8 years of austerity measures, as a country we are still spending more every year than we earn, which is why the national debt continues to rise. The good (or maybe slightly better news) is that over the last two or three years, Britain has generally been heading on the right economic path. More families are in employment, the economy is growing and with low levels of inflation and the UK being seen as a relatively stable economy, the government can essentially re-mortgage its debt at a cheaper rate.

 

What does all this mean - well, after nearly a decade of recession or recession like conditions (stemming from the biggest recession since WW2), we can see on the horizon a path to beginning to be able to pay down the government debt. Less debt means less interest and hence more money to lower taxes, raise pensions and increase funding into the NHS.

 

We pay GBP 43 billion a year to service the debt, without repaying a penny of the debt. That could do a lot of good to the HNS and other public services.... If you vote to leave we will have an economic crash (whether big or small, no one knows). So debt will rise further and this needs funding somehow !?!?

 

The debate on the TV today (Andrew Marr show) was around whether a decision to leave will cause a major recession or a minor recession. HELLO !!! on the back of what is already shaping up to be a lost decade of growth for many, why would we voluntarily vote for a recession of any kind ??

 

Some decisions are not about right or wrong, but about timing. The UK needs another recession like a hole in the head....

 

And for those who somehow believe the doomsayers are just making this up, you need to understand how global markets and global investors work. They can choose to invest money in lots of different places. They balance risk and reward in their business decisions. Also, many companies invest in the UK to obtain free access to the wider EU economies. At best people will delay investment (which costs jobs) and at worst they will move the investment away from the UK.

 

Even if we lost investment for say 2 years, the impact will be huge on jobs, on families, and on today's students.... and when unemployment rises and taxes fall, on the NHS and on Pensions, etc....

 

I understand the sentiment to vote out and I don't for a second believe Europe doesn't have its own problems... But you work with it to fix the issues rather than picking your ball up and walking off the pitch.

 

In a recent survey, approx 75% of people acknowledged that the UK will be economically worse off if we vote to leave (jobs, investment, etc), yet only around 40% believed they may be impacted..!! This is the "It won't happen to me" syndrome.

 

 

Well, it doesn't have to... it depends how you vote....

 

 

I'd almost forgotten the days of the crashing pound, the out of control inflation, the redundancy. Oh joy, soon unhappy days will be here again. Sob.

[bell123321]

If it was the other way around and UK was out of EU and asked to join would we join?

 

Highly doubt it.

[Wooba]

I'd almost forgotten the days of the crashing pound, the out of control inflation, the redundancy. Oh joy, soon unhappy days will be here again. Sob.

Overblown fears perhaps?

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[newjez]

If it was the other way around and UK was out of EU and asked to join would we join?

 

Highly doubt it.

 

That would probably depend on whether the economic conditions within the EU were better than our own conditions. The EU hasn't coped very well with the GFC . But if the world ever returns to normality, the EU might be somewhere we want to be. There were some good times over the last thirty odd years.

 

But at least all those new returnee's, or those planning a return, who missed out on the GFC by fleeing to Australia, will get to experience what all the fuss was about.

[legoman]

We;re part of the EU now and doing very well, why change it on a 'it might be better' vote

[Gbye grey sky]

If it was the other way around and UK was out of EU and asked to join would we join?

 

Highly doubt it.

 

Maybe, maybe not. But I would hazard a guess that some major businesses such as Nissan, Toyota and Hitachi would not have invested so heavily here in the past without the free access to the EU market.

 

Divorce is a whole lot more complicated and expensive than deciding not to marry in the first place.

 

It does seem the British mentality to focus on the negative aspects of everything and belittle achievements.

[Keith and Linda]

Whilst I understand and respect views from both sides of the debate, for me it comes down to economic sense (I am sorry, the accountant in me does come out at times).

We (Britain and Europe for that matter) are still trying to dig ourselves out of the 2008 GFC (global financial recession). Despite the 8 years of austerity measures, as a country we are still spending more every year than we earn, which is why the national debt continues to rise. The good (or maybe slightly better news) is that over the last two or three years, Britain has generally been heading on the right economic path. More families are in employment, the economy is growing and with low levels of inflation and the UK being seen as a relatively stable economy, the government can essentially re-mortgage its debt at a cheaper rate.

 

What does all this mean - well, after nearly a decade of recession or recession like conditions (stemming from the biggest recession since WW2), we can see on the horizon a path to beginning to be able to pay down the government debt. Less debt means less interest and hence more money to lower taxes, raise pensions and increase funding into the NHS.

 

We pay GBP 43 billion a year to service the debt, without repaying a penny of the debt. That could do a lot of good to the HNS and other public services.... If you vote to leave we will have an economic crash (whether big or small, no one knows). So debt will rise further and this needs funding somehow !?!?

 

The debate on the TV today (Andrew Marr show) was around whether a decision to leave will cause a major recession or a minor recession. HELLO !!! on the back of what is already shaping up to be a lost decade of growth for many, why would we voluntarily vote for a recession of any kind ??

 

Some decisions are not about right or wrong, but about timing. The UK needs another recession like a hole in the head....

 

And for those who somehow believe the doomsayers are just making this up, you need to understand how global markets and global investors work. They can choose to invest money in lots of different places. They balance risk and reward in their business decisions. Also, many companies invest in the UK to obtain free access to the wider EU economies. At best people will delay investment (which costs jobs) and at worst they will move the investment away from the UK.

 

Even if we lost investment for say 2 years, the impact will be huge on jobs, on families, and on today's students.... and when unemployment rises and taxes fall, on the NHS and on Pensions, etc....

 

I understand the sentiment to vote out and I don't for a second believe Europe doesn't have its own problems... But you work with it to fix the issues rather than picking your ball up and walking off the pitch.

 

In a recent survey, approx 75% of people acknowledged that the UK will be economically worse off if we vote to leave (jobs, investment, etc), yet only around 40% believed they may be impacted..!! This is the "It won't happen to me" syndrome.

 

 

Well, it doesn't have to... it depends how you vote....

 

I like your first line, respect for others and what it is about for you.

This referendum was brought about for more reasons than just economics, in reality I doubt there would even be a referendum if that was the only reason, it is a very much an emotive issue which brought about the referendum (maybe some political/electioneering point scoring at the time).

I liken this issue to having children, there are many, especially in more recent times, whom base the decision to have or not have children on purely economic reasons and there are those that choose to have children out of love, there are further sub issues too, such as age and health. Some of those in the former group run the risk of missing out on ever having children should the economics not stack-up, whereas the latter group will, through necessity, work through any financial struggles, I would also hazard a guess that there are very few in this latter group that regret having children. Anyway however the decision is made, it is based on personal reasons and these reasons should be respected and not condemned.

[Thom]

This was the decision point for me;

 

The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners"). There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state

[Gbye grey sky]

I like your first line, respect for others and what it is about for you.

This referendum was brought about for more reasons than just economics, in reality I doubt there would even be a referendum if that was the only reason, it is a very much an emotive issue which brought about the referendum (maybe some political/electioneering point scoring at the time).

I liken this issue to having children, there are many, especially in more recent times, whom base the decision to have or not have children on purely economic reasons and there are those that choose to have children out of love, there are further sub issues too, such as age and health. Some of those in the former group run the risk of missing out on ever having children should the economics not stack-up, whereas the latter group will, through necessity, work through any financial struggles, I would also hazard a guess that there are very few in this latter group that regret having children. Anyway however the decision is made, it is based on personal reasons and these reasons should be respected and not condemned.

 

This is good. Do you feel then that the decision comes down to whether you act primarily on emotional responses (Leave) or logical ones (Remain)?

 

And I am not inferring by this that one is inheritantly worse than the other after all few people would marry, have children, or even emigrate to Australia if emotion were not a powerful driver.

[Gbye grey sky]

This was the decision point for me;

 

I cannot see how you could have an issue with that. Surely if the UK Cabinet acted to represent the general population of the UK as a whole rather than just their mates that would be a laudable thing.....wouldn't it?

[Parley]

That is probably the whole point of the EU.

[Paul1Perth]

Yes, but it's not uncontrolled migration - it's controlled by market forces. If there were no jobs they wouldn't come. You can use the same argument for business. Should we have controls - or should we just let market forces have their way. The answer is a little of both. How much of both depends on whether you lean to the right or the left. But you also have to consider efficiency of the market. The labour market is far from efficient. When a job arises in the UK, a Bulgarian isn't suddenly issued with a plane ticket. So - I guess the answer lies in the level of control we apply. For example we could let Europeans in if they can prove they have secured a job, or for a limited time to secure a job.

 

But the problem with Europe is - as Cameron so aptly demonstrated, is that even when you threaten to break their bloody union they don't play ball. Which is why I am hoping for a close stay. With the threat that the next to try, maybe France, might get some concessions and they will start to take things seriously.

 

I don't know. Maybe it does need to be broken so it can be rebuilt. I'm swinging in the wind on this one. Just worried I'll destroy my children's future either way. At least they can always go and live in Australia.

It's not controlled by market forces one bit. It's more of the "refugees" thinking where they can get the best deal from doing naff all. I don't for one second believe all those people sat in France trying to get into the UK on a daily basis are dreaming about what work they are going to do when they manage to get in. Where are all these jobs you mention?

[Gbye grey sky]

It's not controlled by market forces one bit. It's more of the "refugees" thinking where they can get the best deal from doing naff all. I don't for one second believe all those people sat in France trying to get into the UK on a daily basis are dreaming about what work they are going to do when they manage to get in. Where are all these jobs you mention?

 

You are confusing two issues.

 

There is a refugee crisis with individuals from outside the EU trying to gain safe haven in Europe. Then there is internal EU migration through Freedom of Movement.

 

Leaving the EU does not solve the refugee issue for the UK. Arguably it exacerbates it as the French may feel less inclined to contain the problem at Calais when the UK is not a member of the EU.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Parley]

What crap.

All the layabouts in Calais are in Europe already. Refugees my ar5e.

[Gbye grey sky]

What crap.

All the layabouts in Calais are in Europe already. Refugees my ar5e.

 

Whether they are genuine refugees or economic migrants is immaterial to this issue. If they were European citizens they would not be stuck at Calais so it is not an issue with much relevance to this referendum.