eu referendum update

[Keith and Linda]

This is good. Do you feel then that the decision comes down to whether you act primarily on emotional responses (Leave) or logical ones (Remain)?

 

And I am not inferring by this that one is inheritantly worse than the other after all few people would marry, have children, or even emigrate to Australia if emotion were not a powerful driver.

 

I do not think that it is so simple as emotional = leave or that logical = remain, as the logical would generally be regarded as being based on economics then there are arguments out there for both in & out on this point and similar applies to emotional, some would vote in because it would be easier for travelling/living around the EU nations.

MP are sometimes given a free vote on emotive issues, the referendum is such a free vote too, but by the people.

[newjez]

It's not controlled by market forces one bit. It's more of the "refugees" thinking where they can get the best deal from doing naff all. I don't for one second believe all those people sat in France trying to get into the UK on a daily basis are dreaming about what work they are going to do when they manage to get in. Where are all these jobs you mention?

 

You need to understand the problem. The EU vote is about restricting free movement of labour, or at least having more control over it. It has nothing to do with the refugee crisis. Australia isn't in the EU . It has still been affected by the refugee crisis. You comment is like suggesting Western Australia succeed from Australia because of the refugee crisis. Whereas in reality they would succeed to stop all those Eastern states from taking their jobs during the next mining boom.

Edited June 13, 2016 by newjez

[newjez]

What crap.

All the layabouts in Calais are in Europe already. Refugees my ar5e.

 

The UK has border controls. They can't get through legally.

[newjez]

I like your first line, respect for others and what it is about for you.

This referendum was brought about for more reasons than just economics, in reality I doubt there would even be a referendum if that was the only reason, it is a very much an emotive issue which brought about the referendum (maybe some political/electioneering point scoring at the time).

I liken this issue to having children, there are many, especially in more recent times, whom base the decision to have or not have children on purely economic reasons and there are those that choose to have children out of love, there are further sub issues too, such as age and health. Some of those in the former group run the risk of missing out on ever having children should the economics not stack-up, whereas the latter group will, through necessity, work through any financial struggles, I would also hazard a guess that there are very few in this latter group that regret having children. Anyway however the decision is made, it is based on personal reasons and these reasons should be respected and not condemned.

 

It was brought about because of divisions in the Tory party pure and simple. If the Tory party split, they split the vote and lose power. The govt is placing the future of the Tory party above that of the country. It is utterly disgraceful they have put us in this position.

[newjez]

This was the decision point for me;

 

Isn't that the role of every govt? To represent the whole state and not just the bits that voted for them. Although I doubt they do.

[Keith and Linda]

You need to understand the problem. The EU vote is about restricting free movement of labour, or at least having more control over it. It has nothing to do with the refugee crisis. Australia isn't in the EU . It has still been affected by the refugee crisis. You comment is like suggesting Western Australia succeed from Australia because of the refugee crisis. Whereas in reality they would succeed to stop all those Eastern states from taking their jobs during the next mining boom.

 

Of course it has something to do about refugees! as far as I am aware refugees are supposed to get to the first safe country, the refugees (or so called refugees in some instances) are not satisfied with this and want to get elsewhere more for economic/comfort reasons rather than safety! the EU is dictating to each member country to take them in and or contribute more money. Also if these refugees are given residency of other EU member countries then this gives them free movement within the EU. So the refugee crises is, without doubt, part of the whole EU issue.

[Keith and Linda]

It was brought about because of divisions in the Tory party pure and simple. If the Tory party split, they split the vote and lose power. The govt is placing the future of the Tory party above that of the country. It is utterly disgraceful they have put us in this position.

 

What rubbish! the people were demanding a say on Europe the tories went into the last election with the promise of a referendum and consequently got voted in.

[Gbye grey sky]

Of course it has something to do about refugees! as far as I am aware refugees are supposed to get to the first safe country, the refugees (or so called refugees in some instances) are not satisfied with this and want to get elsewhere more for economic/comfort reasons rather than safety! the EU is dictating to each member country to take them in and or contribute more money. Also if these refugees are given residency of other EU member countries then this gives them free movement within the EU. So the refugee crises is, without doubt, part of the whole EU issue.

 

The UK cannot simply wash their hands of the refugee crisis just by voting to Leave the EU. Especially given that the UK has played such a major part in creating the refugee crisis.

 

The refugee crisis must be and will be tackled with international cooperation rather than simply closing borders and hiding behind barricades.

 

 

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[Parley]

Rubbish.

Every country has as its first duty to protect its borders and its people.

 

Your extreme left wing ideology is very disturbing and totally out of step with community expectations.

Edited June 13, 2016 by parleycross

[Gbye grey sky]

Rubbish.

Every country has as its first duty to protect its borders and its people.

 

Your extreme left wing ideology is very disturbing and totally out of step with community expectations.

 

So on that basis what should every country do about refugees?

 

 

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[Parley]

So on that basis what should every country do about refugees?

 

 

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Do you mean illegal arrivals ?

 

They should be placed in detention until their situation and status is determined.

[Gbye grey sky]

Do you mean illegal arrivals ?

 

They should be placed in detention until their situation and status is determined.

 

Then, once it is determined, what happens?

 

 

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[Parley]

They should be settled around the world somewhere in any safe country that will have them.

 

But as Australia does, this should not be the country they have specifically targetted as this is just encouraging the people smuggling business.

[Gbye grey sky]

They should be settled around the world somewhere in any safe country that will have them.

 

But as Australia does, this should not be the country they have specifically targetted as this is just encouraging the people smuggling business.

 

But surely no safe country should have them by your reckoning as by doing so they would be abandoning their first duty to their own citizens.

 

 

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[Parley]

No. That isn't what I said.

[Gbye grey sky]

No. That isn't what I said.

 

To be fair you said that they should be resettled in a safe country using international cooperation. I think that international cooperation was what I also said in post 158. You initially rubbished that but it turns out that we are in agreement after all. I just had to help you join the dots.

[Parley]

No. You think anyone who turns up illegally should be let in no questions asked.

[Gbye grey sky]

No. You think anyone who turns up illegally should be let in no questions asked.

 

No. Where did I say that?

 

I had originally thought that you would deny entry no matter what but as it turns out we actually agree more than we disagree.

 

 

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[Keith and Linda]

The UK cannot simply wash their hands of the refugee crisis just by voting to Leave the EU. Especially given that the UK has played such a major part in creating the refugee crisis.

 

The refugee crisis must be and will be tackled with international cooperation rather than simply closing borders and hiding behind barricades.

 

 

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Now I did not say wash their hands of it, my post was in response to a claim that the refugee crisis had nothing to do with the EU. However it is without doubt a difficult situation, but we must stop refugees thinking they can get better and permanent residency in countries of their own choosing, and what we do now only gives them encouragement to do just that, The whole refugee thing was about getting to a safe haven and remain there until they could safely return. I still think this should not only still be the case but is also possible to achieve. but that is only my belief, doubt it will match up to others!

[newjez]

Of course it has something to do about refugees! as far as I am aware refugees are supposed to get to the first safe country, the refugees (or so called refugees in some instances) are not satisfied with this and want to get elsewhere more for economic/comfort reasons rather than safety! the EU is dictating to each member country to take them in and or contribute more money. Also if these refugees are given residency of other EU member countries then this gives them free movement within the EU. So the refugee crises is, without doubt, part of the whole EU issue.

 

The refugees can't get through UK border controls. Yes, if they stay long enough and get residency, then they will have the same right travel as any eu citizen.

 

If we leave the EU , the French can just let them go through. We would need to set up border controls in Dover and stop and search every train coming through. We would then get to play refugee ping pong with the French .

 

It would make using the tunnel a nightmare.

[newjez]

Now I did not say wash their hands of it, my post was in response to a claim that the refugee crisis had nothing to do with the EU. However it is without doubt a difficult situation, but we must stop refugees thinking they can get better and permanent residency in countries of their own choosing, and what we do now only gives them encouragement to do just that, The whole refugee thing was about getting to a safe haven and remain there until they could safely return. I still think this should not only still be the case but is also possible to achieve. but that is only my belief, doubt it will match up to others!

 

But what if it takes ten years or more until it is safe to return?

 

Anyway, you are changing the subject. The EU referendum has nothing to do with refugees.

[newjez]

What rubbish! the people were demanding a say on Europe the tories went into the last election with the promise of a referendum and consequently got voted in.

 

 

When you say people, you mean ukip was rising in the polls and Tories were defecting? Yes, they were very worried ukip would split the vote. That and the added pressure within the Tory party. But this isn't an action for the people. It is an action to appease the rank and file of the Tory party. Corbyn has admitted he's not that bothered either way. Little towards stay with reform. But he wouldn't be too upset with a leave.

[Chortlepuss]

The refugees can't get through UK border controls. Yes, if they stay long enough and get residency, then they will have the same right travel as any eu citizen.

 

If we leave the EU , the French can just let them go through. We would need to set up border controls in Dover and stop and search every train coming through. We would then get to play refugee ping pong with the French .

 

It would make using the tunnel a nightmare.

 

Policing the Irish border would be an interesting challenge too.....

[Keith and Linda]

But what if it takes ten years or more until it is safe to return?

 

Anyway, you are changing the subject. The EU referendum has nothing to do with refugees.

 

Then we would have a micro city somewhere.

and it has! proved by how much it is talked about within the referendum discussions.

[Paul1Perth]

You need to understand the problem. The EU vote is about restricting free movement of labour, or at least having more control over it. It has nothing to do with the refugee crisis. Australia isn't in the EU . It has still been affected by the refugee crisis. You comment is like suggesting Western Australia succeed from Australia because of the refugee crisis. Whereas in reality they would succeed to stop all those Eastern states from taking their jobs during the next mining boom.

I understand the problem just fine. You are right when you say the refugee problem should not be part of this debate, problem is most of the voting public think it is so it is by default. I was talking to the father in law last week and was surprised for him to be voting to stay in. He's just been down South and stayed in a couple of hotels where the staff were all Europeans. He came out with the comment that the employers can't get the young idle average british worker to do the menial jobs. I think he's wrong, especially given the high numbers of unemployed youngsters. The hotels were open and operating before the EU and were staffed just fine. While a cheap workforce is available, each one willing to be cheaper than the last, employees aren't going to train UK unemployed and pay them a decent wage to do menial tasks. That's without all the European immigrants working for other European settlers for cash. A massive black economy that someone who has to pay fair taxes can't compete with. Same thing goes on here too but more with Asians on farms working for other Asians usually. No visas, keep them under the radar, keep them inside the farm property in caravans. Been quite a few cases locally to where we live.

The UK will take a while to recover if they get out but I've confidence it would be better out. The EU's days are numbered I reckon. The UK would just be the first ones out.