eu referendum update

[Quinkla]

Just watched a brief documentary about how the eu Parliament moves from Brussels to Strasburg for 4 days a month at a annual cost of £300 million a year , I might not be a rocket scientist but this has to be one of the biggest waste of money ever it's simply not required , so can somebody explain how this value for money.

This is a legacy of bringing together many countries with a long history of warring with one another. It was not thought acceptable for any one country to host the capital of Europe because it would be taken as primacy over the other member countries. Hence, the institutions were split between Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg. Over time, Brussels has become the de facto capital and nobody minds very much – but shutting Strasbourg down (it is actually supposed to be the main location of the Parliament) would probably not be acceptable to the French.

 

I have no idea whether the quoted cost for the dual sites is accurate but, even if it is, it is loose change compared to the costs of war. The EU is not perfect but it has created a stability that Europe has never previously had in which war between European countries now seems almost inconceivable. The economic development is a bonus.

[amibovered]

German thought's on Brexit, including this nugget

Far less well publicised was what a senior German CDU MP told Der Spiegel.

Juergen Hardt, the party's foreign policy spokesman, offered an intriguing glimpse into how Berlin may be preparing for Brexit.

If the UK votes to leave, Mr Hardt said, then the EU should gauge possible action to prevent a British exit from becoming a reality. Brussels shouldn't close the door right away.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526839

 

if we vote out next week, that's when the real negotiations will start.

[Paul1Perth]

I really fail to understand the attraction of a exit when you look at the self serving bunch who are advocating it , they are motivated by their monstrous egos and monumental ambitions, they have their eyes firmly fixed on money and status.

If anyone thinks these people have any interest in making this a wonderful country for the average working or salaried person they must be a candidate for a strait jacket, they and their mates are going to take us straight back to the 1930s but with a few extra twists such as the salaried classes on zero contracts, workfare programs mandatory for all unemployed regardless of qualifications and a co-payment when you go to a doctor and the closure of local hospitals and the introduction of regional hospitals is written across their smarmy faces.

Boris and his chums will squeeze this country dry just like the upper classes always have so don't think that because you're white collar or management you're not going to feel the cold draught of the next bout of austerity and having your own little gang of public school boys and the token ethnic woman in charge is not going to be any protection from their neo - liberal economics.

They'll buy you off with lots of glitz and fine words and give you "wine and circuses" but they, their class and their mates will screw you just as they always have and there will be no unions to stop them.

That's the way it's been heading under this government anyway though. Zero hour contracts, reduction in wages, no rises, privatise the NHS by stealth, destroy the unions or at least make it nigh on impossible to be in one. They're just typical conservative policies where if you've got money and status, went to the right schools, speak with a posh accent, then you're in the secret handshake club where the rich look after each other and pay lip service to the riff raff. Can't see leaving the EU making it any worse. Might give them a shakeup when they don't get their own way.

[bunbury61]

German thought's on Brexit, including this nugget

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526839

 

if we vote out next week, that's when the real negotiations will start.

 

 

Could it be that Germany is worried about carrying the financial weight of the e.u on its own .

Without the support of the u.k ?

 

The remaining countries will drag Germany down as well eventually .

 

ITS A MESS ,ITS A MISTAKE ,ITS UNACCOUNTABLE ....OUT

[Paul1Perth]

Since 1914 the story of this country is one of continual decline with a few blips of upsurge and leaving the EU is not going to reverse that, our victories have been pyrrhic and bought at enormous monetary and personal cost

Since 1914? Are you sure. Ever seen pictures from 1914 b2d? I think you'd agree that the standard of living, life expectancy, personal wealth, home ownership are all miles better. Each generation has done better than the last and it's not till about the generation that's coming up to leaving school now that might struggle to repeat that. Most of that is due to jobs disappearing as technology advances at a frightening rate and human workers get replaced by machines.

[amibovered]

Could it be that Germany is worried about carrying the financial weight of the e.u on its own .

Without the support of the u.k ?

 

The remaining countries will drag Germany down as well eventually .

 

ITS A MESS ,ITS A MISTAKE ,ITS UNACCOUNTABLE ....OUT

All of the above I guess, as for out, dunno, wouldn't mind an out vote next week to shake things up, and then we'll see what happens when the real renegotiations start.

[Gbye grey sky]

Could it be that Germany is worried about carrying the financial weight of the e.u on its own .

Without the support of the u.k ?

 

The remaining countries will drag Germany down as well eventually .

 

ITS A MESS ,ITS A MISTAKE ,ITS UNACCOUNTABLE ....OUT

 

Everybody is worried, not just Germany. Stock markets in Europe and elsewhere have been tumbling in anticipation of Brexit. Obviously those who short or use hedge funds stand to make a killing at the expense of pension funds mainly.

[Rallyman]

This is a legacy of bringing together many countries with a long history of warring with one another. It was not thought acceptable for any one country to host the capital of Europe because it would be taken as primacy over the other member countries. Hence, the institutions were split between Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg. Over time, Brussels has become the de facto capital and nobody minds very much – but shutting Strasbourg down (it is actually supposed to be the main location of the Parliament) would probably not be acceptable to the French.

 

I have no idea whether the quoted cost for the dual sites is accurate but, even if it is, it is loose change compared to the costs of war. The EU is not perfect but it has created a stability that Europe has never previously had in which war between European countries now seems almost inconceivable. The economic development is a bonus.

 

 

Sorry but but it's a complete waste of money as for your logic of preventing war if that were the case it would be a travelling circus going to every member state which it doesn't , how going to Strasburg for 4 days is preventing war is complete and utter nonsense , if you were running a business it simply could not be justified , they have a responsibility to spend money given by all tax payers wisely the whole way members can chose how much they claim is a joke ,as I have said before have a read up on what the kinnocks claim and then tell me we are getting value for money.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Care to quantify that? How come one small Island is the fifth greatest trading nation in the world.

 

If you strip out the financial services sector activity we are woeful in comparison to other economies, our productivity per working person is below that of France who everyone in the UK derides because of their holidays and working hours. Our social services are poor in comparison to most western European nations, my wife's Lithuanian volunteer goes home for medical treatment maintaining it's better and she doesn't pay prescription charges.

Wake up we are still the "sick man of Europe", we are not self sufficient in food production, we are dependent on a very narrow band of industries for survival and the major ones are foreign owned car production, financial services and a London centric property bubble sucking in foreign investment (often criminal money) and a strangle hold on house building by Tory supporting builders controlling supply to create the bubble outside of London

[BacktoDemocracy]

German thought's on Brexit, including this nugget

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526839

 

if we vote out next week, that's when the real negotiations will start.

Judging by Merkel ' s response to the Greek crisis you can forget any negotiating on our terms of exit, it will be "there's the door close it quietly on the way out"

[BacktoDemocracy]

That's the way it's been heading under this government anyway though. Zero hour contracts, reduction in wages, no rises, privatise the NHS by stealth, destroy the unions or at least make it nigh on impossible to be in one. They're just typical conservative policies where if you've got money and status, went to the right schools, speak with a posh accent, then you're in the secret handshake club where the rich look after each other and pay lip service to the riff raff. Can't see leaving the EU making it any worse. Might give them a shakeup when they don't get their own way.

You agree then about the Tories, is it wise then to remove the only constraint which is imposed on them by the EU, once they're off the leash they will rescind the last vestiges of workers rights which the EU forces them to abide by .

[BacktoDemocracy]

Since 1914? Are you sure. Ever seen pictures from 1914 b2d? I think you'd agree that the standard of living, life expectancy, personal wealth, home ownership are all miles better. Each generation has done better than the last and it's not till about the generation that's coming up to leaving school now that might struggle to repeat that. Most of that is due to jobs disappearing as technology advances at a frightening rate and human workers get replaced by machines.

 

Seen lots of pictures of 1914 Britain, lived in a 2 up, 2 down in the slums of a cotton town, experienced rationing till the early 50's when the rest of Europe was living the high life which no one knew about here, if immigration and technological progress are the causes of our low wage, low productivity economy how come the rest of western Europe never feels so depressed and workers do not seem to be so ground down by working at soul destroying jobs.

[Liam13]

Could it be that Germany is worried about carrying the financial weight of the e.u on its own .

Without the support of the u.k ?

 

The remaining countries will drag Germany down as well eventually .

 

ITS A MESS ,ITS A MISTAKE ,ITS UNACCOUNTABLE ....OUT

 

germany having to carry Europe is exactly what it is.. Only since the poll has edged towards out that these things start to arise.

[VERYSTORMY]

Since 1914 the story of this country is one of continual decline with a few blips of upsurge and leaving the EU is not going to reverse that, our victories have been pyrrhic and bought at enormous monetary and personal cost

 

Sorry, but I think you are very wrong.

 

The prosperity of the people in the UK - like most developed countries - has boomed in recent years.

 

When I was born, we lived in what was a lower middle class area. Dad was a foreman in a big steel yard, so as high as a guy could go without putting on a tie for work.

 

We had no bathroom in the house. The toilet was outside and I still remember going to it in the night in winter.

 

The bath was still a steel bath put in front of the fire which we used once a week - dad in first, then mum, then me then my brother.

 

I remember us getting our bathroom put in and many of the neighbours coming to see it.

 

I also remember that there were very few cars. We had the first car on our road and would go for days out on a weekend in it and Whitby was a long drive (26 miles).

 

I remember us getting our first TV.

 

I also have a vague memory of an aunt that was my mums oldest sister - mum was the youngest of 13. What people find shocking is that I have a memory of someone when I am only 46, and that someone spent part of her life in a workhouse!

 

Later, in the early 80's, I remember the real start of mass tourism to Spain. Nobody I knew had ever been to somewhere as exotic. Many of us had been to France - I went with school and that was a big thing. We were going to go to Spain, but we pulled out at the last minute as my mum was nervous of somewhere so exotic and the economy was stuttering. To this day, my dad has never been out of the UK and furthest mum got was a trip to Jersey

 

So, life has changed dramatically over even my short life.

[VERYSTORMY]

What do you think this is about, it's about Boris seeing his opportunity to lead the Tories , there are enough red neck little Englander's in his party to support him and the rest hate Cameron sufficiently to make sure Boris gets thro to 2020 and he will have to give the swivel eyed gits what they want to make it to the next election by which time Labour will have split , which is what they're counting on.

 

I don't think so and I am normally a Tory voter. The problem the party has is it has split down the line with no figure standing out that both sides will ever support. For example, I would rather vote Comrade Corbyn than Cameron! I know many Remain people would say the same about Boris.

 

So, even if he thinks that is a plan, he is sadly deluded.

[Gbye grey sky]

Sorry, but I think you are very wrong.

 

The prosperity of the people in the UK - like most developed countries - has boomed in recent years.

 

When I was born, we lived in what was a lower middle class area. Dad was a foreman in a big steel yard, so as high as a guy could go without putting on a tie for work.

 

We had no bathroom in the house. The toilet was outside and I still remember going to it in the night in winter.

 

The bath was still a steel bath put in front of the fire which we used once a week - dad in first, then mum, then me then my brother.

 

I remember us getting our bathroom put in and many of the neighbours coming to see it.

 

I also remember that there were very few cars. We had the first car on our road and would go for days out on a weekend in it and Whitby was a long drive (26 miles).

 

I remember us getting our first TV.

 

I also have a vague memory of an aunt that was my mums oldest sister - mum was the youngest of 13. What people find shocking is that I have a memory of someone when I am only 46, and that someone spent part of her life in a workhouse!

 

Later, in the early 80's, I remember the real start of mass tourism to Spain. Nobody I knew had ever been to somewhere as exotic. Many of us had been to France - I went with school and that was a big thing. We were going to go to Spain, but we pulled out at the last minute as my mum was nervous of somewhere so exotic and the economy was stuttering. To this day, my dad has never been out of the UK and furthest mum got was a trip to Jersey

 

So, life has changed dramatically over even my short life.

 

Blimey, it was grim up north. I remember getting our first TV but I am 10 years older than you. Dad worked as a clerical officer in the Civil Service so not very well paid but we had inside plumbing and went to Spain in the early 70s.

[Gbye grey sky]

I don't think so and I am normally a Tory voter. The problem the party has is it has split down the line with no figure standing out that both sides will ever support. For example, I would rather vote Comrade Corbyn than Cameron! I know many Remain people would say the same about Boris.

 

So, even if he thinks that is a plan, he is sadly deluded.

 

Seriously, neither Cameron nor Osborne can survive a Brexit vote. Cameron in particular must resign if the vote is Brexit as he ran a poor campaign following on from rash promises of EU reform (which did not materialise) ahead of a referendum.

 

I agree there will be a power vacuum. Whether the Tories can unite behind Johnson or indeed anyone is doubtful and even more so when the economy is in freefall.

[Quinkla]

Sorry but but it's a complete waste of money as for your logic of preventing war if that were the case ...

I am just explaining why Europe ended up putting its institutions in different cities in different countries. Are you disputing that I am correctly reporting the original policy intention?

[ramot]

Blimey, it was grim up north. I remember getting our first TV but I am 10 years older than you. Dad worked as a clerical officer in the Civil Service so not very well paid but we had inside plumbing and went to Spain in the early 70s.

 

I was working for an independent airline in the early 1960's there were plenty of people going on flights to Spain etc. on package holidays.

Sorry have to agree with GGS the north of England must have been grim, we had hardly any money as my mother was a single parent, but we had inside plumbing, even had it when I moved to Africa a few years later, and had TV there as well.

 

Sorry went off subject.

 

Been talking to my son on face time, he is in his mid 40's still undecided which way to vote, but veering on staying in, mainly because of the uncertainty of leaving, but fed up with how many are on the EU gravy train especially the likes of the Kinnocks.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ramot

[Thom]

If you strip out the financial services sector activity we are woeful in comparison to other economies, our productivity per working person is below that of France who everyone in the UK derides because of their holidays and working hours. Our social services are poor in comparison to most western European nations, my wife's Lithuanian volunteer goes home for medical treatment maintaining it's better and she doesn't pay prescription charges.

Wake up we are still the "sick man of Europe", we are not self sufficient in food production, we are dependent on a very narrow band of industries for survival and the major ones are foreign owned car production, financial services and a London centric property bubble sucking in foreign investment (often criminal money) and a strangle hold on house building by Tory supporting builders controlling supply to create the bubble outside of London

 

 

You're wrong of course.

 

The United Kingdom has the fifth-largest national economy (and second-largest in EU) measured by nominal GDP and ninth-largest in the world (and second-largest in the EU) measured by purchasing power parity (PPP). The UK economy currently makes up 4% of world GDP. The UK has been the fastest growing economy in the G7 for four consecutive years with 2.1% year on year growth in Q1 2016. In 2014 the UK was the ninth-largest exporter in the world and the fifth-largest importer, and had the second largest stock of inward foreign direct investment and the second-largest stock of outward foreign direct investment. The UK is one of the world's most globalised economies

[Gbye grey sky]

You're wrong of course.

 

All sounds so good. Those are the stats with the UK in the EU. Interesting to see where the UK sits once outside investment dries up and the UK breaks up following Brexit.

[BacktoDemocracy]

You're wrong of course.

 

I still maintain that my point about it being built on a narrow base of very fluid capital and overseas ownership is the relevant consideration, those 2 props can fold very quickly as they have no roots in this country to keep them here and productivity remains low overall and is dependent on global trade which is the point made in your abstract, limiting our ability to trade globally will knock all of those statistics into the long grass.

Finance companies already have contingency plans for relocation, how long will the car firms remain here when they lose tariff free access to Europe, they will only need to think that might be the case and they will be off, London property is being sold off plan for multi millions with a get out clause if the vote is to leave, where will the construction industry be then, how long before the Saudi financiers pull the plug on all those towers in London that are due to be built.

Where do you think the pension funds have got their investments in, if you are thinking of retiring in the next 5-10 years I would be cashing everything and putting it into cash or bonds.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Seriously, neither Cameron nor Osborne can survive a Brexit vote. Cameron in particular must resign if the vote is Brexit as he ran a poor campaign following on from rash promises of EU reform (which did not materialise) ahead of a referendum.

 

I agree there will be a power vacuum. Whether the Tories can unite behind Johnson or indeed anyone is doubtful and even more so when the economy is in freefall.

 

Boris will unify them by giving in to every demand they make, my anxiety level has shot up after reading a piece by Polly Toynbee postulating that immigration will still not come down and at the next election the political spectrum will be dragged to the extreme right with a number of parties proposing extreme actions which could drag us into armed conflict with Europe.

Edited June 15, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[Rallyman]

I am just explaining why Europe ended up putting its institutions in different cities in different countries. Are you disputing that I am correctly reporting the original policy intention?

 

Why only quote part of a sentence ?

[BacktoDemocracy]

Blimey, it was grim up north. I remember getting our first TV but I am 10 years older than you. Dad worked as a clerical officer in the Civil Service so not very well paid but we had inside plumbing and went to Spain in the early 70s.

Yes it was grim, huge swathes of the NW were covered by street after street of terraces of houses with 4 rooms, no internal plumbing and there were still even courtyard houses where houses were built in squares so even higher densities could be achieved with shared facilities so even cheaper to build.

London was building better quality cheap dwellings in the late 20's and 30 ' s and on a large scale in the 50's and 60 ' s, in the north that was not happening on as big a scale until the 60 ' s and 70's and the housing was built cheaply .

The repercussions of these actions are still with us now and I'm sure contribute to the feelings of abandonment felt by many of those now voting for Brexit.

The repercussions