eu referendum update

[BacktoDemocracy]

The people can have some semblance of their own government, as long as that government behaves within the frame imposed upon it. They can even pass some local regulations, as long as those regulations are in no way what so ever in contravention of the higher power.

 

The majority of the people go along with it, many even finding it not overly oppressive and the leaders at the local level relatively benign. Some, even assist the new power and most are at best reluctant to help any force to take back control for fear of the possible negative outcomes that all may suffer. For many, things don't seem too bad, or at least not as bad as many fear things could get if people didn't go along with it.

 

They are fed a lot of lies in the form of so called news, many of course know and can recognise the lies. Though some seem to believe them. Most knew that at best, their attitude was unethical and it was certainly the case that a significant number of them were committing treason.

 

This is a paraphrase from a book I am currently reading. Does it sound familiar?

 

Its actually not about the EU. It is about the occupation of the channel islands in the second world war.

 

So sorry, the word traitor, may be a emotive word. But, it does not stop it being correct.

You realise the killer of Jo Cox stated in court when arraigned "death to TRAITORS", this use of highly emotive language and how it can affect the disturbed and those with a tenuous hold on reality, no one is a traitor they simply have a different understanding of the situation based on facts and that is why I oppose the leave campaign because it is based on exploiting people's prejudices and ignorance.

If they had come up with some real facts and policies about the changes needed in the EU to make it more effective, and if we were to leave some real facts and policies about how we would be better off out and how we would prosper with some real facts about industries and finance staying here in the UK, and a real critique of the neo liberal agenda and how it is wrecking the world economy and how to control that here and in the EU, then a lot more people would be voting out, but as we have had nothing more than fatuous and air head rants about immigration and how 'getting control of our country' will solve everything from the NHS to the price of gas then I cannot see it other than what it is, a grab for power in exactly the same way as the Nazi grab for power in early 1930's

Edited June 20, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[amibovered]

Quick straw poll at work today, out of five, two degree holders and the other three, various diplomas, we got 2 out, 2 don't know, and 1 don't care.

[amibovered]

I'm going to guess 55% Remain 45% Leave.

[Gbye grey sky]

The people can have some semblance of their own government, as long as that government behaves within the frame imposed upon it. They can even pass some local regulations, as long as those regulations are in no way what so ever in contravention of the higher power.

 

The majority of the people go along with it, many even finding it not overly oppressive and the leaders at the local level relatively benign. Some, even assist the new power and most are at best reluctant to help any force to take back control for fear of the possible negative outcomes that all may suffer. For many, things don't seem too bad, or at least not as bad as many fear things could get if people didn't go along with it.

 

They are fed a lot of lies in the form of so called news, many of course know and can recognise the lies. Though some seem to believe them. Most knew that at best, their attitude was unethical and it was certainly the case that a significant number of them were committing treason.

 

This is a paraphrase from a book I am currently reading. Does it sound familiar?

 

Its actually not about the EU. It is about the occupation of the channel islands in the second world war.

 

So sorry, the word traitor, may be a emotive word. But, it does not stop it being correct.

 

Like others in the Leave camp, you are quick with an inflammatory comment but have no answers. Who are you suggesting in your previous post that the UK is ceding sovereignty to? Remember that the EU is NOT a sovereign entity but the UK most assuredly is as are the other 27 member nations.

[Ferrets]

What it boils down to is this.

 

Are you British or a traitor. Yes, I use the word traitor because that is what it amounts to. You want to give sovereignty to a foreign power.

 

Or like the Greeks we can vote for one thing and then watch as the opposite happens - Brexit and then watch as the newly gained "Sovereignty" is then bundled back very quickly to secure trade deals under a power grab by BoJo. I do not expect there to be any true incremental sovereignty under a leave scenario.

 

You've also been one of the people who has offered reasoned debate, but appear to have dropped to the lowest common denominator here, which is where this is getting quite unpleasant. I feel that the consequences for British politics are a complete rejig - as a lifelong Conservative voter I would now rather vote for Corbyn than Johnson!

[Ferrets]

The people can have some semblance of their own government, as long as that government behaves within the frame imposed upon it. They can even pass some local regulations, as long as those regulations are in no way what so ever in contravention of the higher power.

 

The majority of the people go along with it, many even finding it not overly oppressive and the leaders at the local level relatively benign. Some, even assist the new power and most are at best reluctant to help any force to take back control for fear of the possible negative outcomes that all may suffer. For many, things don't seem too bad, or at least not as bad as many fear things could get if people didn't go along with it.

 

They are fed a lot of lies in the form of so called news, many of course know and can recognise the lies. Though some seem to believe them. Most knew that at best, their attitude was unethical and it was certainly the case that a significant number of them were committing treason.

 

This is a paraphrase from a book I am currently reading. Does it sound familiar?

 

Its actually not about the EU. It is about the occupation of the channel islands in the second world war.

 

So sorry, the word traitor, may be a emotive word. But, it does not stop it being correct.

 

 

I am headed to Alderney in July for a few weeks and the scars of a physical occupation are still raw even in 2016 - from the Ocean wall and surrounding area that is a mass grave from the concentration camp, to the defensive emplacements that are so significant that it is still not economically viable to remove them. My wife's family still have the photos of burnt out and bombed dwellings. I would be horrified for those surviving in such circumstances to be labelled a traitor. That said the language used in your book appears to hark from a previous time that is hopefully consigned to the past.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Ferrets

[Fisher1]

Well said Ferrets. I don't know the Channel Islands but I sincerely believe that people who haven't lived through such a horrendous experience have no right to criticise those who have, let alone blithely quote out of context excerpts of someone else's opinion.

 

Furthermore, the suggestion that membership of the E.U. - however irksome - can somehow be compared to that forced military occupation shows an astounding lack of knowledge about what actually went on in those countries unfortunate enough to come under the rule of Hiltler and his ilk.

 

I'm quite sure nobody in the E.U has ever been shipped off to prison for criticising the government.

[paul1977]

One thing you can assure is 200-400 thousand people coming to the uk every year. It will take the uk government to build a city the size of Coventry every year to house and look after these people. No amount of being in the EU will be able to do this, that's right a city the size of Coventry every year to be built

[Peach]

One thing you can assure is 200-400 thousand people coming to the uk every year. It will take the uk government to build a city the size of Coventry every year to house and look after these people. No amount of being in the EU will be able to do this, that's right a city the size of Coventry every year to be built

 

Which is a tiny number compared to the UK crude natural increase of nearly 2,000,000 more births than deaths each year.

 

[TABLE=width: 256]

[TR]

[TD]Country[/TD]

[TD]Crude death rate[/TD]

[TD]Crude birth rate[/TD]

[TD]Crude natural increase[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: left]

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD] United Kingdom[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9.33[/TD]

[TD=align: right]12.34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.01[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[Quinkla]

One thing you can assure is 200-400 thousand people coming to the uk every year. It will take the uk government to build a city the size of Coventry every year to house and look after these people. No amount of being in the EU will be able to do this, that's right a city the size of Coventry every year to be built

But people migrate inwards and other people migrate outwards. Some of the emigrants will be people who were previously immigrants. Even if you think the UK cannot cope with a population increase (which it probably can) and even if your quoted statistic is correct (you don't cite a source), then you also have to take account of births, deaths and outward migration. I don't see a need for a new Coventry every year and if there were, we would presumably be seeing a huge growth of informal settlements at the sides of motorways like in RSA.

[Gbye grey sky]

One thing you can assure is 200-400 thousand people coming to the uk every year. It will take the uk government to build a city the size of Coventry every year to house and look after these people. No amount of being in the EU will be able to do this, that's right a city the size of Coventry every year to be built

 

You would be right if you took these figures and just extrapolated them. The reality is that the movement of people in a continent is more like the tide than a river.

 

Many only intend to stay for a few months or years or become homesick for their friends/families in their home country. This is also much evidenced on MBTTUK forum on PIO so would apply as much to European migrants.

 

In the USA citizens have the right to move States but this in itself does not cause problems even though moving is much easier due to shared language etc mainly because ultimately an equilibrium is established.

 

I would not be surprised if Brexit has caused a spike in net immigration with people getting in before the doors potentially close and this would settle down naturally. Net inward migration is also a positive barometer in many ways for the UK economy. You should worry if more want to leave than come in.

 

It is a paradox that many on this forum that have recently returned to the UK are thriving there and loving being back 'home' but somehow believe that Britain is suffering from net migration (which is not a new phenomenen). I wish they could make up their mind. They post on MBTTUK that all is great and then on this forum that the UK is going to hell in a handcart. Very confusing.

[paul1977]

As long as the uk can handle 300 thousand a year and the school,housing,NHS crisis improves

[Quinkla]

As long as the uk can handle 300 thousand a year and the school,housing,NHS crisis improves

I dispute your numbers - but in any case, taking in economically active young people should be growing the economy, not harming it. If the UK imported pensioners it might have more cause to worry but, as it goes, it seems to be quite good at persuading its pensioners to head off to Spain.

[newjez]

The people can have some semblance of their own government, as long as that government behaves within the frame imposed upon it. They can even pass some local regulations, as long as those regulations are in no way what so ever in contravention of the higher power.

 

The majority of the people go along with it, many even finding it not overly oppressive and the leaders at the local level relatively benign. Some, even assist the new power and most are at best reluctant to help any force to take back control for fear of the possible negative outcomes that all may suffer. For many, things don't seem too bad, or at least not as bad as many fear things could get if people didn't go along with it.

 

They are fed a lot of lies in the form of so called news, many of course know and can recognise the lies. Though some seem to believe them. Most knew that at best, their attitude was unethical and it was certainly the case that a significant number of them were committing treason.

 

This is a paraphrase from a book I am currently reading. Does it sound familiar?

 

Its actually not about the EU. It is about the occupation of the channel islands in the second world war.

 

So sorry, the word traitor, may be a emotive word. But, it does not stop it being correct.

 

I find it quite disgusting that someone who spent years raving about not being able to find a decent restaurant in Perth should be so quick to cast judgement on those who didn't have enough food for themselves and their families.

[newjez]

One thing you can assure is 200-400 thousand people coming to the uk every year. It will take the uk government to build a city the size of Coventry every year to house and look after these people. No amount of being in the EU will be able to do this, that's right a city the size of Coventry every year to be built

 

How many were coming to Perth every year, when it was a city of a million? Did we hear outcries of the social damage, or did we hear boom town?

[Guest The Pom Queen]

 

What a shame you have continued to pull down the tone of what was a decent discussion on the whole. Who moderates the moderators please?

Verystormy is a member just like you and is entitled to his opinion as long as it doesn't break any forum rules. Being a moderator does not come in to it.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

I think you have crossed the line there, especially in light of recent events. Time to hand back your moderator badge I'm afraid.

Once again being a moderator does not stop him having a personal view whether you agree with it or not.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Just a reminder to get back on topic. If you have an issue hit the report button and a mod or admin will take a look.

[newjez]

Like others in the Leave camp, you are quick with an inflammatory comment but have no answers. Who are you suggesting in your previous post that the UK is ceding sovereignty to? Remember that the EU is NOT a sovereign entity but the UK most assuredly is as are the other 27 member nations.

 

 

To take the argument further,

 

The Scots are traitors to Scotland .

The welsh are traitors to Wales.

The Irish are still trying to work out who they are traitors to

The Cornish are traitors to CornwallThe French are traitors to France

The Germans are traitors to Germany

West Australians are traitors to Western Australia

People from Hampshire are traitors to Hampshire

Texans are traitors to Texas

Everyone who is a member of the UN are traitors to themselves

Let's shoot them all in the street like rabid dogs.

 

I guess with the Scottish, if they vote to remain in the UK they are traitors to Scotland, and if they vote to leave they are traitors to the UK. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Edited June 21, 2016 by newjez

[Gbye grey sky]

To take the argument further,

 

The Scots are traitors to Scotland .

The welsh are traitors to Wales.

The Irish are still trying to work out who they are traitors to

The Cornish are traitors to CornwallThe French are traitors to France

The Germans are traitors to Germany

West Australians are traitors to Western Australia

People from Hampshire are traitors to Hampshire

Texans are traitors to Texas

Everyone who is a member of the UN are traitors to themselves

Let's shoot them all in the street like rabid dogs.

 

I guess with the Scottish, if they vote to remain in the UK they are traitors to Scotland, and if they vote to leave they are traitors to the UK. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Inflammatory language is often a tactic to stifle proper debate and to reduce everyone to petty childish name-calling. I suspect that this was the motivation here and, to an extent, it has been successful.

 

I agree with TPQ. We should get back on topic and ignore obvious prevarication.

[Thom]

I dispute your numbers - but in any case, taking in economically active young people should be growing the economy, not harming it. If the UK imported pensioners it might have more cause to worry but, as it goes, it seems to be quite good at persuading its pensioners to head off to Spain.

 

The BBC says;

 

Net migration - the difference between the number of people coming to the UK for at least a year and those leaving - stood at 333,000 in 2015, according to the latest figures.

 

I have no problem with 'economically active" people migrating, how ever;

 

An "unprecedented" influx of some 1.5 million eastern European workers into the UK over the past six years is likely to have had a negative impact on the wages of the lowest-paid British workers, according to a major report ordered by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC).

 

From the Grauniad

[paul1977]

How many were coming to Perth every year, when it was a city of a million? Did we hear outcries of the social damage, or did we hear boom town?

Well I'm sure if a couple of million people dumped themselves in Perth the effects would be the same. Just wait till the China agreement gets going in full force and it will be the same

[paul1977]

I dispute your numbers - but in any case, taking in economically active young people should be growing the economy, not harming it. If the UK imported pensioners it might have more cause to worry but, as it goes, it seems to be quite good at persuading its pensioners to head off to Spain.

That's not true, the way to grow an economy isn't by numbers but by investment

[amibovered]

I notice this has been kept very low key, can't think why

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/681614/Calais-migrants-refugees-Britain-UK-EU-referendum-Brexit-Euro-2016

[amibovered]