eu referendum update

[Rallyman]

https://www.ttip-leaks.org/

 

just had this sent to me. Referring to a leak from Greenpeace Netherlands very concerning reading

[BacktoDemocracy]

As long as the uk can handle 300 thousand a year and the school,housing,NHS crisis improves

The crisis in public services is because of a political doctrinaire policy of the Conservative govt to cut public services just when the bulge of the oldest population in history is hitting those services so the UK now spends the least of the whole of western Europe on those services.

If you go into hospital you find them full of old people who are repeat visitors with multiple ailments not full of immigrants, OAP care homes cannot make the figures stack up on what the govt pays, libraries are closing because of lack of funding, hospitals no longer employ gardeners and rely on volunteers, low, controlled rent housing has almost disappeared because of lack of funding and restrictions on Councils building, why is there a shortage of doctors because the govt is not funding the training places, preferring to recruit overseas doctors whose training they do not pay for, but that supply is drying up, nurses no longer get subsidised training, are any of these problems caused by immigrants , no, they are Conservative policy which they do not intend to change.

Employers are actively recruiting overseas for cheap Labour, has the Conservative govt even tried to prevent that, which they could if they wanted, no they and their business supporters are very happy with.

Are the Brexiters ready to lose all those EU doctors and nurses.

Why do you think all of these Polish builders are here , because our construction firms have limited their training preferring to rely on EU workers who do not join unions and who do you think are amongst the biggest contributors to the Conservative party , why the big construction firms.

Immigration will have to be debated and Europe wide policies worked out but thinking that the Conservatives will achieve this is la la land thinking, they are creating many of the problems themselves and then hiding their involvement by blaming immigration

Edited June 21, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[BacktoDemocracy]

https://www.ttip-leaks.org/

 

just had this sent to me. Referring to a leak from Greenpeace Netherlands very concerning reading

 

I agree one of the most concerning and worrying issues with the EU and have the Conservatives uttered one word of protest at the terms of it, NO, it would make the whole of Europe subservient to US multi nationals, have the Brexiters breathed a word about it, NO, would they sign up to it independently, I bet they would. .

Edited June 21, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[Ken]

preferring to recruit overseas doctors whose training they do not pay for, but that supply is drying up, ....

Are the Brexiters ready to lose all those EU doctors and nurses.

 

 

Contradicting yourself there aren't you? If the supply is drying up then there won't be many to lose (those who are already in the UK and want to stay will be entitled to citizenship by the 2020 exit date).

[Gbye grey sky]

Contradicting yourself there aren't you? If the supply is drying up then there won't be many to lose (those who are already in the UK and want to stay will be entitled to citizenship by the 2020 exit date).

 

Do you not have to live in the UK for 6 years before you are naturalised and able to claim UK citizenship (3 years if married to a British citizen)?

 

And what is this 2020 exit date?

[Ken]

To take the argument further,

 

The Scots are traitors to Scotland .

The welsh are traitors to Wales.

The Irish are still trying to work out who they are traitors to

The Cornish are traitors to CornwallThe French are traitors to France

The Germans are traitors to Germany

West Australians are traitors to Western Australia

People from Hampshire are traitors to Hampshire

Texans are traitors to Texas

Everyone who is a member of the UN are traitors to themselves

Let's shoot them all in the street like rabid dogs.

 

I guess with the Scottish, if they vote to remain in the UK they are traitors to Scotland, and if they vote to leave they are traitors to the UK. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

And by that logic if they vote to leave the EU then they're traitors to the EU. Look at the first two words on the front cover of your British passport and then try to explain which side of Brexit is treasonable! As you say Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[NicF]

Apparently Jeremy Clarkson and David Beckham have come out in support of staying in the EU. Should sway all the undecideds :eek:

[BacktoDemocracy]

Contradicting yourself there aren't you? If the supply is drying up then there won't be many to lose (those who are already in the UK and want to stay will be entitled to citizenship by the 2020 exit date).

No, it's simple arithmetic, if over 5 years you have recruited 5000 Bulgaria doctors, say, and you have now stripped out all the surplus doctors from Bulgaria and the flow is now only 200 per year you still have 5200 Bulgarian doctors who may not qualify to stay here, you are assuming they will want all the hassle and cost of applying for citizenship, they may take the view that working in a xenophobic country which does not welcome them is not their career choice and may choose to stick 2 fingers up.

It always amazes me that all the leavers seem to think that the whole of the EU is lining up to work and trade in this newly minted go get country, they may well consider us to be a "Traitor"

[BacktoDemocracy]

Contradicting yourself there aren't you? If the supply is drying up then there won't be many to lose (those who are already in the UK and want to stay will be entitled to citizenship by the 2020 exit date).

Is that the best hole you can see in my argument

[Wa7]

Apparently Jeremy Clarkson and David Beckham have come out in support of staying in the EU. Should sway all the undecideds :eek:

 

I thought only britains " brilliant minds " wanted to remain.

[amibovered]

Yeah, because if there is a Brexit, no one at all will be allowed to migrate to the UK, wait a minute, what about a points based system, can anyone think of a model for that?

[winter1]

Yeah, because if there is a Brexit, no one at all will be allowed to migrate to the UK, wait a minute, what about a points based system, can anyone think of a model for that?

 

Do you mean the one that has 457 visas that many on this site find does not lead to permanent residency due to the sponsoring organisation making them redundant just before they can?

[Ken]

Do you mean the one that has 457 visas that many on this site find does not lead to permanent residency due to the sponsoring organisation making them redundant just before they can?

 

No, I'm pretty sure he meant the one that has 189 visas. You're thinking of an entirely different model.

[Ken]

Is that the best hole you can see in my argument

 

Pretty much agreed with the rest of your argument. Whether there is or isn't Brexit those are the things that need to be fixed e.g. have a competent government that understands the importance of actually training Doctors (especially when they've gone to all the trouble of getting almost every half wit to do a degree because they think that'll lead to an educated workforce). But why a need to stay in the EU (whose supply of Doctors you say is drying up) when outside the EU Doctors and Nurses could be imported from anywhere in the world?

[Wooba]

The politics of fear. History repeating itself. Vote OUT on Thursday.

 

 

[BacktoDemocracy]

Pretty much agreed with the rest of your argument. Whether there is or isn't Brexit those are the things that need to be fixed e.g. have a competent government that understands the importance of actually training Doctors (especially when they've gone to all the trouble of getting almost every half wit to do a degree because they think that'll lead to an educated workforce). But why a need to stay in the EU (whose supply of Doctors you say is drying up) when outside the EU Doctors and Nurses could be imported from anywhere in the world?

They are being recruited from all over the world especially the Philippines and Indian sub continent, but is that acceptable that a first world country strips out people who have been trained at the cost of a 3rd world country denying their citizens medical care or possibly are they being trained by these countries to a lower level in the knowledge that they will be recruited by us and then be a living export earning hard currency for the originating country as people send their wages home.

If that is the case we are now being conned ourselves

Edited June 21, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[bunbury61]

They are being recruited from all over the world especially the Philippines and Indian sub continent, but is that acceptable that a first world country strips out people who have been trained at the cost of a 3rd world country denying their citizens medical care or possibly are they being trained by these countries to a lower level in the knowledge that they will be recruited by us and then be a living export earning hard currency for the originating country as people send their wages home.

If that is the case we are now being conned ourselves

 

Sorry guys , I haven't had chance to read many of the previous posts ...very busy with work .

I will be voting out ,but will except the democratic majority .

Uf the vote is to remain ,I will start looking at my long term options outside of the u.k .

The very things that the e.u is sold on ,freedom of movement ,democracy ,and peoples rights is the biggest scam in human history ,but that's just my opinion .

I see it as way for big business and the banking elite to move cheap labour around the continent .

The French so called " socialist" government are in the process of taking workers rights away,and zero hour contracts ,where did they come from ?....where is the e.u block on those.

 

A French worker for example had hard worn rights and rates of pay ....training to a high standard for his or her profession ....all that is going out the window .

 

For me ...its the beginning of the end if we remain

[Ferrets]

I am headed to Alderney in July for a few weeks and the scars of a physical occupation are still raw even in 2016 - from the Ocean wall and surrounding area that is a mass grave from the concentration camp, to the defensive emplacements that are so significant that it is still not economically viable to remove them. My wife's family still have the photos of burnt out and bombed dwellings. I would be horrified for those surviving in such circumstances to be labelled a traitor. That said the language used in your book appears to hark from a previous time that is hopefully consigned to the past.

 

Seriously guys??....in this post I was critical of a mod (which I think was fair given the poor taste of the example) yet this part seems to have been "modded" out. Am I not entitled to an opinion (and I don't think my language was inflammatory)?

 

The caveat being that I may have had some beer last night with the football.....and therefore may have mistakenly modded myself, so apologies in advance if that's the case ;-)

[Ferrets]

Sorry guys , I haven't had chance to read many of the previous posts ...very busy with work .

I will be voting out ,but will except the democratic majority .

Uf the vote is to remain ,I will start looking at my long term options outside of the u.k .

The very things that the e.u is sold on ,freedom of movement ,democracy ,and peoples rights is the biggest scam in human history ,but that's just my opinion .

I see it as way for big business and the banking elite to move cheap labour around the continent .

The French so called " socialist" government are in the process of taking workers rights away,and zero hour contracts ,where did they come from ?....where is the e.u block on those.

 

A French worker for example had hard worn rights and rates of pay ....training to a high standard for his or her profession ....all that is going out the window .

 

For me ...its the beginning of the end if we remain

 

I think the problem is that we look back to a UK before Europe with rose tinted glasses, and the real driver downward in terms of pay, etc. is globalisation and consumer expectations. Try telling your wife (apologies if I have got this the wrong way round) that she can only have 2 or 3 pairs of shoes...I understand that was not uncommon only 43 years ago!

 

That doesn't mean it's right, but would we be better served mobilising collectively against TTIP? Odd thing is that I think it will come either in or out and have the odd feeling that this is a bit of a charade that will leave the electorate on all sides feeling let down whilst the careers of BoJo et. al go marching on.

[paul1977]

They are being recruited from all over the world especially the Philippines and Indian sub continent, but is that acceptable that a first world country strips out people who have been trained at the cost of a 3rd world country denying their citizens medical care or possibly are they being trained by these countries to a lower level in the knowledge that they will be recruited by us and then be a living export earning hard currency for the originating country as people send their wages home.

If that is the case we are now being conned ourselves

maybe if the uk paid a decent wage then all the doctors and nurses would come back to the NHS. Went to hospital in Perth and every person from the receptionist to the doctor was british

[paul1977]

Plans for an EU army will be on the table next week if we vote to stay in. Watch this space

[ramot]

I think the problem is that we look back to a UK before Europe with rose tinted glasses, and the real driver downward in terms of pay, etc. is globalisation and consumer expectations. Try telling your wife (apologies if I have got this the wrong way round) that she can only have 2 or 3 pairs of shoes...I understand that was not uncommon only 43 years ago!

 

That doesn't mean it's right, but would we be better served mobilising collectively against TTIP? Odd thing is that I think it will come either in or out and have the odd feeling that this is a bit of a charade that will leave the electorate on all sides feeling let down whilst the careers of BoJo et. al go marching on.

 

 

Wracking my my brains to try to remember how many pairs of shoes I was allowed!!!! 43 years ago? as I have been married for 46 years.

Where did you get that ludicrous fact from? and how is it relevant?

I seem to remember we managed to live and enjoy life 43 years ago buy our first house have children, and make ends meet, just as my children are doing today.

[the bottler]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33737[/ATTACH]

[Gbye grey sky]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33737[/ATTACH]

 

The caption probably should read. "Sorry kids, but you are going to have to do it all again"

[winter1]

I notice this has been kept very low key, can't think why

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/681614/Calais-migrants-refugees-Britain-UK-EU-referendum-Brexit-Euro-2016

 

May have something to do with the fact the French would move the border to Folkstone if the UK exits the EU and will not stop them crossing the border into the UK any more.