Casual Racism?

[Parley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by christopher

Maybe so, but Im not sure they're on the decline here, i.e they were never here in the first place :-)

 

And yes I've never encountered as much racism, sexism as I have in Australia, and it seems to be excepted and the norm here. I even heard the phrase 'While you're down there love' the other day at work! I mean come on!

:huh::huh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Oh ! dont tempt me please!

 

Good ol' aussie humour

[Paul1Perth]

Exactly, back in the 70's, Sort of proves my point!

 

No, don't get your point. Are you saying it was acceptable and funny in the 70's and not now? What's changed?

 

It would still be funny now if it's said to the right people at the right time and everyone sees it as a joke.

 

If it's said to a stranger and you get a black eye for it no-one would have much sympathy, either in the 70's or now.

[Guest siamsusie]

Good ol' aussie humour

 

Originally Posted by siamsusie

Quote:

Originally Posted by christopher

Maybe so, but Im not sure they're on the decline here, i.e they were never here in the first place :-)

 

And yes I've never encountered as much racism, sexism as I have in Australia, and it seems to be excepted and the norm here. I even heard the phrase 'While you're down there love' the other day at work! I mean come on!

:huh::huh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Oh ! dont tempt me please!

Good ol' aussie humour

*************************************************************************************************************

 

 

 

:cry:Its when they stop saying that, I would worry:embarrassed::wink:

 

I cant tie shoelaces anyway:twitcy:

[christopher]

No, don't get your point. Are you saying it was acceptable and funny in the 70's and not now? What's changed?

 

It would still be funny now if it's said to the right people at the right time and everyone sees it as a joke.

 

If it's said to a stranger and you get a black eye for it no-one would have much sympathy, either in the 70's or now.

 

 

I'm not qualified to say whether it was or wasn't acceptable in the 70's I wasn't born until 1978.

 

But yes times do change as it happens, and things become less acceptable over time, usually for the right reasons.

 

For example, Nigger Brown was an acceptable name for a colour at one point, but surely you can see why it would be unacceptable in this day and age?

 

Anyway, I personally don't think the phrase 'while you're down there love' said to a work colleague is acceptable, i think it's unfunny, rude and pretty sexist and I said pretty much that to the guy at the time and I just got the 'your a stuck up whinging pommy,' stock answer back.

[Paul1Perth]

I'm not qualified to say whether it was or wasn't acceptable in the 70's I wasn't born until 1978.

 

But yes times do change as it happens, and things become less acceptable over time, usually for the right reasons.

 

For example, Nigger Brown was an acceptable name for a colour at one point, but surely you can see why it would be unacceptable in this day and age?

 

Anyway, I personally don't think the phrase 'while you're down there love' said to a work colleague is acceptable, i think it's unfunny, rude and pretty sexist and I said pretty much that to the guy at the time and I just got the 'your a stuck up whinging pommy,' stock answer back.

 

Can't see what is wrong with Nigger Brown either. It was a colour for years and no-one took offence and all of a sudden it's wrong.

The black and white minstrel show wouldn't be acceptable now, gollies on jam jars, too many things to mention really, like being bothered about being called a pom.

 

People need to take a step back, get a sense of humour and be a little less precious. There would be a lot less trouble in the world.

[christopher]

Can't see what is wrong with Nigger Brown either. It was a colour for years and no-one took offence and all of a sudden it's wrong.

 

You do realise why the 'N' word is offensive now though don't you? it's not just some all of a sudden'PC gone mad' type thing, just as the word 'Paki' is highly offensive. It's not the words themselves, its the way in which the words have been used and are used in a derogatory manor which makes the words offensive and unacceptable. Times and society change and as it does we should adapt our use of language to reflect that.

 

I guess my point id, I feel that Australia or the Australia I am encountering seems to be a bit behind in this respect. Some people may find it refreshing, I personally don't, I find it a little backward.

[Ellie 2]

You do realise why the 'N' word is offensive now though don't you? it's not just some all of a sudden'PC gone mad' type thing, just as the word 'Paki' is highly offensive. It's not the words themselves, its the way in which the words have been used and are used in a derogatory manor which makes the words offensive and unacceptable. Times and society change and as it does we should adapt our use of language to reflect that.

 

I guess my point id, I feel that Australia or the Australia I am encountering seems to be a bit behind in this respect. Some people may find it refreshing, I personally don't, I find it a little backward.

 

Words like "Paki" have never been used in a degrogatory manner in Australia, so why should Australians change just because some migrants are ignorant enough to have used the words in that way? Please don't presume that you are more enlightened because you have stopped using derogatory terms such as have been mentioned. I reckon the Aussies are the enlightened ones in this case.

[christopher]

Words like "Paki" have never been used in a degrogatory manner in Australia, so why should Australians change just because some migrants are ignorant enough to have used the words in that way? Please don't presume that you are more enlightened because you have stopped using derogatory terms such as have been mentioned. I reckon the Aussies are the enlightened ones in this case.

 

 

I actually just used 'Paki' as an example of how words can be offensive to illustrate a point, I presume you understand why its a taboo word in England? which is more the point I am trying to make. I never 'presumed' I am more enlightened and I never actually said Australians should change, why should I, it is their country. I am just giving my observation on how I have found Australia and how I don't particularly like what I have seen and heard, I'm not saying that makes me better, just makes me not really want to live here.

[bunbury61]

You will notice the question mark at the end of the thread title as I'm not sure if this is the correct term for what I'm experiencing or not. Anyway, I come from the North of England and I have quite a strong Yorkshire accent, now what I'm finding interesting (I say interesting, I mean down right rude!) is that I will be having a conversation with people (Australians that is) and they will often repeat words I have just said in an 'amusing' copy of my my accent and then laugh, now I can take a joke and can laugh at myself and my accent but, this is happening quite often and with all sorts of people, work colleagues(even the boss), clients,shop assistants, bank tellers. Is this casual racism? whatever it's getting a little tiresome to be honest, and it's something that I wouldn't dream of doing to someone else just because they had a 'funny' accent. Has anyone else come across this kind of behavior?

 

Thats how some aussies amuse themselves .

Remind them

1/ The language is English , and you happen to be English

ps I have a Brummie accent ,and used to get it all the time , in most cases its not a piss take , its just their way, and a form of endearment .

I have had run ins with a few though .......most of them are all front.

[Paul1Perth]

You do realise why the 'N' word is offensive now though don't you? it's not just some all of a sudden'PC gone mad' type thing, just as the word 'Paki' is highly offensive. It's not the words themselves, its the way in which the words have been used and are used in a derogatory manor which makes the words offensive and unacceptable. Times and society change and as it does we should adapt our use of language to reflect that.

 

I guess my point id, I feel that Australia or the Australia I am encountering seems to be a bit behind in this respect. Some people may find it refreshing, I personally don't, I find it a little backward.

 

You only quoted a bit of my earlier post and if the whole thing is quoted the gist of it becomes apparent.

 

I find it strange that black guys call each other nigger all the time and it seems quite acceptable for them. They only seem to get upset when a white person does it. Can you figure that?

 

There is a program on TV here "living black" everyone seems to accept this with no complaints. Wonder what would happen if someone came up with "living white" as a program name? Do you reckon they would get away with it?

 

If someone complained who do you think it would be?

[christopher]

I find it strange that black guys call each other nigger all the time and it seems quite acceptable for them. They only seem to get upset when a white person does it. Can you figure that?

 

 

 

Yes I can figure that, it's all about reclaiming offensive words and turning the meaning on it's head.

[christopher]

There is a program on TV here "living black" everyone seems to accept this with no complaints. Wonder what would happen if someone came up with "living white" as a program name? Do you reckon they would get away with it?

 

If someone complained who do you think it would be?

 

I've never seen said programme so don't have much of a frame of reference, but from your last sentence you seem to ne implying that black people would complain about a programme called 'living white'? If you are that seems like a ridiculous asumption to make.

[Guest guest36762]

Yes I can figure that, it's all about reclaiming offensive words and turning the meaning on it's head.

 

I agree (for once) with Paul. It's unfortunate that in Afro American culture the word nigger is acceptable, but now it's ingrained, nothing will change that. I presume it's a product of generations of slavery and racism. The word is abhorrent.

[christopher]

I agree (for once) with Paul. It's unfortunate that in Afro American culture the word nigger is acceptable, but now it's ingrained, nothing will change that. I presume it's a product of generations of slavery and racism. The word is abhorrent.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the reclamation of the word either as I too find it (the 'N' word) abhorrent and I'm not sure its helped the black communities cause by certain communities reclaiming it, but I understand why it's happened and would never dream of using it. Its not the only case of this happening (the homosexual community reclaiming the word 'gay' is another!) google reappropriation, it has happened with many things.

[Paul1Perth]

I've never seen said programme so don't have much of a frame of reference, but from your last sentence you seem to ne implying that black people would complain about a programme called 'living white'? If you are that seems like a ridiculous asumption to make.

 

Why do you say that it's a ridiculous assumption to make. I would lay money on.

1. There would be no way that they would ever get the title accepted in the first place and

2. If by some miracle it was the aborigines and other races of colour, along with their supporters would be straight on the case saying "you can't have that, it's racist"

 

I've never seen the program either by the way.

[christopher]

Why do you say that it's a ridiculous assumption to make. I would lay money on.

1. There would be no way that they would ever get the title accepted in the first place and

2. If by some miracle it was the aborigines and other races of colour, along with their supporters would be straight on the case saying "you can't have that, it's racist"

 

I've never seen the program either by the way.

 

It's ridiculous because its a straw man argument and a position based on assumptions and something that hasn't happened, how do you know a programme call 'living white' wouldn't get commissioned?, surely the title could mean anything and the show be about anything.

 

You are basically making things up to try and fit your point of view.

 

"aborigines and other races of colour, along with their supporters would be straight on the case saying "you can't have that, it's racist" "

 

would they? you know that do you?

 

Your statement is nonsense.

[basil]

very late to this thread but I just wanted to say that IMO racism probably is more prevalent in australia (than say the UK), i'm not sure you could quantify that attitudes are any 'worse' but certainly it is more common or even acceptable to use what we brits (and many other nations) see as racial slurs in everyday speech and to define people by their race and/or use terms such as abbos, wogs, lebs etc.

 

I've never been completely sure how I feel about it to be honest. It feels odd to me because it's not something i'm used to hearing but in the bulk of cases I'm not sure aussies mean anything derrrogetry by or or any inferred white aussie superiority. Although I appreciate it's how those on the receiving end feel that really counts.

The key is in the intent and the intonation in their voice and the context of the sentence that gives it away I find.

 

I don't think those of you who are ok with being called a 'pom' or defined by your accent are quite relating though, some comments are easier to stomach than others. It's entirely different to be called a name that you wouldn't refer to yourself v's one that you know is likely to inferr someone is talking down to you/having a little inside dig at your expense.

I lived in asia for a number of years and was referred to as an 'ang moh', white people never reffered to themselves as it and it was often said to you making an assumption you didn't know what it meant. Some people didn't mind it but some did and either way it was un-necessary to define people by it.

 

Back in the 60's (was it?) in the UK when we had an immigration surge of pakistanis (by the nhs) it was acceptable to say Paki and over the years it's ceased to be. Similarly 'coloureds' was ok and now it is not.

Currently we have a surge of eastern europeans and in everyday speech britsh people will mark them out as 'poles', they are white so it's not perceived as racial, but in time I'm sure people will cease to identify them as different as there'll just be 'dave at work' rather than 'the polish guy at work'.

I don't know australias migration history but I wonder rather than in an insulting fashion whether they are literally behind the UK in terms of foreign (non white) migrants from some nations? Certainly they've seen a boom in the last 5 years I've been visitng of asians on the west coast. These things just take time to settle I suppose.

 

I do think, since the cronulla race riots of 2005, where thousands of aussies gathered in response to sms, that the everyday Aussie on the street is more aware of the perception of others in using these terms (because they wouldn't want to be considered as racist like those who participated in the riots).

 

Anyway, I just don't think the britsh are massively attitudinally different, just that we don't vocalise it (but in many cases it's still evident)

[christopher]

 

 

I don't know australias migration history but I wonder rather than in an insulting fashion whether they are literally behind the UK in terms of foreign (non white) migrants from some nations?

 

 

Excellent well balanced post.

 

 

Just on the point I have quoted, which is an interesting one and could actually explain why many people see Australia as a bit behind on the race issue.

 

Australia literally had a 'White Australia' policy that only officially got abolished in 1973 (I think!)

 

Its an interesting part of Australias history

 

Australian Immigration Fact Sheet 8. Abolition of the 'White Australia' Policy

[pablo]

Im no liberal ,nor a racist,but paki to me is just an abbreviation unlike the N word,same as brit is an abbreviation?be interested to know what asians themselves thought of it tbh.

Re the "living black" thing,ive never seen it,but there was a movie made recentlyISH called "white men cant jump",i doubt they would make a movie called "black men cant swim" tbh

Racism had to be addressed,but like most "causes" sometimes it goes too far "the other way",just my tuppence worth,mostly its middle class white getting upset about terms,not the minorities themselves,i get the feeling that some people jump on the tiniest hint of "racism" nowdays to make themselves seem perfectly pc,holier than thou

[Guest siamsusie]

Im no liberal ,nor a racist,but paki to me is just an abbreviation unlike the N word,same as brit is an abbreviation?be interested to know what asians themselves thought of it tbh.

Re the "living black" thing,ive never seen it,but there was a movie made recentlyISH called "white men cant jump",i doubt they would make a movie called "black men cant swim" tbh

Racism had to be addressed,but like most "causes" sometimes it goes too far "the other way",just my tuppence worth,mostly its middle class white getting upset about terms,not the minorities themselves,i get the feeling that some people jump on the tiniest hint of "racism" nowdays to make themselves seem perfectly pc,holier than thou

 

Not a bad post from a budgie smuggling northern git Pabs.. well said:huh:

[basil]

Ah well there you go! How ignorant of world history am I :embarrassed:

 

I haven't read the link (but will do now) but if it is what it sounds like, permitting only those of certain races to migrate and live in aus, then I think any current negative attitude is fairly natural and understandable (not saying it's ok just that I get it).

 

'73 ain't that long ago. For older generations it's still possibly half their lifetime in an era with a very different publicly acceptable attitude to different races.

It also means that logically the bulk of adults of non-white skin tone were likely not born and bred aussies.

 

I imagine in 20 years time - when kids have grown up in a class at school with greater ethnic diversity and looking at someone in the street will likely give no snap-shot indication on whether they were born in australia or not - the average aussie wont be using racial terms in everyday speech.

 

It's a bit like in the UK, when an 80 odd year old man uses terms like Alf Garnet, we cut them a little bit of slack because things were different in their day. I'm not saying that anyone should have to accept it or excuse it, just that for me it puts a very different spin on it.

[basil]

just my tuppence worth,mostly its middle class white getting upset about terms,not the minorities themselves,

 

I think you're right. People (brits) get hung up on the terms not the intent.

[christopher]

Im no liberal ,nor a racist,but paki to me is just an abbreviation unlike the N word,same as brit is an abbreviation?be interested to know what asians themselves thought of it tbh.

 

 

Having lived for thirty years in West Yorkshire in an area where there is a large Pakistani community I can say that the word 'Paki' has very bad connotations and can see why the word is not a nice one and would never use it myself.

 

Obviously the word itself is literally a shortened version of Pakistani but as I mention early in the thread it's an abreviation that has been used in malice and is now not accepted where I come from, and so I do find it strange to hear the word used.

[christopher]

Ah well there you go! How ignorant of world history am I :embarrassed:

 

I haven't read the link (but will do now) but if it is what it sounds like, permitting only those of certain races to migrate and live in aus, then I think any current negative attitude is fairly natural and understandable (not saying it's ok just that I get it).

 

'73 ain't that long ago. For older generations it's still possibly half their lifetime in an era with a very different publicly acceptable attitude to different races.

It also means that logically the bulk of adults of non-white skin tone were likely not born and bred aussies.

 

I imagine in 20 years time - when kids have grown up in a class at school with greater ethnic diversity and looking at someone in the street will likely give no snap-shot indication on whether they were born in australia or not - the average aussie wont be using racial terms in everyday speech.

 

It's a bit like in the UK, when an 80 odd year old man uses terms like Alf Garnet, we cut them a little bit of slack because things were different in their day. I'm not saying that anyone should have to accept it or excuse it, just that for me it puts a very different spin on it.

 

Indeed, I'm sure that Australia will be a very different place in 20 years time, just as Britain has changed which is kind of what I have been saying in many of my posts, times change and along with that so does language and attitudes, it's not always 'PC gone mad' in fact IMO its very rarely that.

[pablo]

Having lived for thirty years in West Yorkshire in an area where there is a large Pakistani community I can say that the word 'Paki' has very bad connotations and can see why the word is not a nice one and would never use it myself.

 

Obviously the word itself is literally a shortened version of Pakistani but as I mention early in the thread it's an abreviation that has been used in malice and is now not accepted where I come from, and so I do find it strange to hear the word used.

 

But again,they use it themselves? i mean why is it "malicious"? isnt it just perception?

A lot of republican irish people used to use the word "brit" in a "supposedly" negative way,but we dont object to still using it ourselves.

I personally will tell a joke about a muslim,jew,sihk,christian,londoner,scouser,frenchman etc,i dont differentiate because i know im not racist,singling certain races out for "over protection" is the racist bit to me.

I watched a docu the other week about a muslim arab and a jew doing a comedy tour together,funny as.............! there was no malice in the jokes,but they took the p7ss out of each others stereotypes,and themselves,i think its "us" who go OTT on racism tbh