The Brand New PIO Parents Visa thread

[Fisher1]

Just now, Jellybean T said:

Strange the way it's only certain countries that the pension is frozen when you go to live there...mostly commonwealth countries.  You would think the UK government would realise how much money we were saving them by leaving and going to live in another country and actually encourage us to go. Maybe one day!...but until that day comes we need to be active in trying to get the ruling reversed. 

Quite agree. Mind you, it's incredible how many people think that the rules are just fine as they are. I wrote to my MP about this ages ago and he gave was sympathetic but firm in his certainty that the current system was okay because the government had no reciprocal pension agreement with those countries where pensions are not upgraded. He neglected to explain why no UK government has tried to negotiate a reciprocal agreement in recent years - they don't want to spend the money because there's nothing in it for them.  The only bargaining tool we have is to threaten to return to the UK en masse ... something that is unlikely to happen. 

[moliere19]

I wrote to my MP about this issue in 2014 and thought you might like to see the response.

Thank you for your e-mail of 31 March.  I appreciate that you concerned that some British expatriates, who have paid taxes and made National Insurance contributions during their working lives, are not entitled to pension up-rating.

The UK state pension is payable worldwide and is up-rated abroad where there is a legal requirement to do so.  Overseas residents are not entitled to pension up-rating, unless a relevant treaty or agreement exists.  It has been, and remains, the policy of successive governments not to enter into new agreements with countries or territories where this would include up-rating pensions in order to contain the long-term cost of the UK social security system and ensure that it remains affordable.

To do so would cost hundreds of millions of pounds at a time when the pressure on a welfare system is considerable and when the Government is asking many people who live in the UK to make sacrifices.

This issue has been examined extensively by the domestic courts, culminating in a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights in 2010.  In all these cases the courts have found in favour of the Government.

I am sorry if this was not the answer that you were seeking, but I hope that this at least helps explain the reasoning behind these difficult decisions.  Thank you for drawing this issue to my attention.

[Sadge]

  http://www.international-adviser.com/print_article/international_adviser/news/1000472/expats-lose-pensions-claim-eu-court?print=true

[Alan Collett]

23 minutes ago, Fisher1 said:

Quite agree. Mind you, it's incredible how many people think that the rules are just fine as they are. I wrote to my MP about this ages ago and he gave was sympathetic but firm in his certainty that the current system was okay because the government had no reciprocal pension agreement with those countries where pensions are not upgraded. He neglected to explain why no UK government has tried to negotiate a reciprocal agreement in recent years - they don't want to spend the money because there's nothing in it for them.  The only bargaining tool we have is to threaten to return to the UK en masse ... something that is unlikely to happen. 

https://www.bpia.org.au/

In case of interest.

Best regards.

[Fisher1]

18 minutes ago, moliere19 said:

I wrote to my MP about this issue in 2014 and thought you might like to see the response.

Thank you for your e-mail of 31 March.  I appreciate that you concerned that some British expatriates, who have paid taxes and made National Insurance contributions during their working lives, are not entitled to pension up-rating.

The UK state pension is payable worldwide and is up-rated abroad where there is a legal requirement to do so.  Overseas residents are not entitled to pension up-rating, unless a relevant treaty or agreement exists.  It has been, and remains, the policy of successive governments not to enter into new agreements with countries or territories where this would include up-rating pensions in order to contain the long-term cost of the UK social security system and ensure that it remains affordable.

To do so would cost hundreds of millions of pounds at a time when the pressure on a welfare system is considerable and when the Government is asking many people who live in the UK to make sacrifices.

This issue has been examined extensively by the domestic courts, culminating in a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights in 2010.  In all these cases the courts have found in favour of the Government.

I am sorry if this was not the answer that you were seeking, but I hope that this at least helps explain the reasoning behind these difficult decisions.  Thank you for drawing this issue to my attention.

Haha you don't live in North Wales do you? This is almost the exact response I got from my MP. In effect they are saying that it is okay to discriminate on the grounds of affordability. I'm trying to write to as many people as I can while I am still in this country, quoting "friends" who are being discriminated against, in the hope that some MP somewhere will think there might be actual votes involved in their responses.  One source of support is the SNP who all seem to vote in favor of upgrades when the issue is raised.

[Fisher1]

2 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

https://www.bpia.org.au/

In case of interest.

Best regards.

Thanks for the link Alan. There is a Canadian group too, and both they and the Australian group work with the international consortium of British pensioners to try and coordinate ongoing protests and discussions. There's loads about this on Facebook, very interesting (if depressing) reading.

[Sadge]

The European Court has already ruled (see my earlier link) so unless there is a mechanism for appealing against that ruling we won't get very far - sadly.

[Fisher1]

12 minutes ago, Sadge said:

  http://www.international-adviser.com/print_article/international_adviser/news/1000472/expats-lose-pensions-claim-eu-court?print=true

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this ruling was so disappointing. It seemed to hinge mainly on the fact that national insurance payments don't just cover pensions. So we have one of the meanest paid for state pensions in Europe which is also (I believe) the only one that discontinues  pension upgrades to some of the people who retire outside the EU. Poor decision.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Fisher1

[Fisher1]

3 minutes ago, Sadge said:

The European Court has already ruled (see my earlier link) so unless there is a mechanism for appealing against that ruling we won't get very far - sadly.

 

[AMP]

Good news from Immi and Border Control today and this specifically applies to those of us who are planning to move over on interim 600 visas!

You may recall that I myself am planning to move on a 600 visa, whilst waiting for my 143.  I have a buyer for my house but have been having nightmares about shipping my belongings.  All but one shipping company said they could not ship on a tourist visa.  One (Masons) checked with their agent in Brisbane and said I could.  Given all the negative responses from all the other agents, I was getting anxious about who was right so I contacted border control direct to clarify.  The first response from them said that I could send UPEs (unaccompanied personal effects) but this would generally only be clothing and personal grooming items.  I queried it again, specifically referring them to a document I had found on their site "Sending your Personal Belongings to Australia".  This document stated "If you are not a permanent resident of Australia or are not arriving to take up permanent residency, you can still import some types of goods as your UPEs.  Page 2 of this same document specifically listed furniture, household goods, garden tools, bikes and a whole range of other items as UPEs which don't require permanent residency in order to import.

This is the response I had back from Border Control this morning:

"Non-permanent residents can still import goods into Australia as UPE, they will be however, limited to the goods that are listed on that fact sheet. The goods must have been owned and used for 12+ months".   Hurrah!!!  Gosh, this whole thing of moving really is a roller coaster ride.

[AMP]

This (if I have managed to do it right!)  is the image of the relevant page of the document

[Kathss56]

10 hours ago, SusieRoo said:

There is a uk.gov webpage where you can log in and see how your NI contributions are doing in terms of state pension. You need your national insurance number and passport details.

Normally you reach full pension entitlement before you retire, so not paying in for the last few years may not make any difference. It just depends on how many years you have paid up.

You still have the amount ‘frozen’ when you leave UK, which is very wrong and I cant understand why the EU courts have not put a stop to this already.

I have paid well over the minimum requirement but as if last year my quoted state pension was £132 a week. As classed as contracted out due to paying into a private pension. They said if I carry on  working for a few more years I will get the yearly increase which when I retire will take me to the full current state pension. As I intend to go to Oz before 66 I will be short so not much more than £132 they quoted last year. 

Nearly 50yrs I would have to contribute for full Amount! Grrrr! 

[Kathss56]

19 minutes ago, AMP said:

This (if I have managed to do it right!)  is the image of the relevant page of the document

So that means you can't ship clothes and your hairbush then?!?!  ??...

Edited July 31, 2017 by Kathss56

[AMP]

26 minutes ago, Kathss56 said:

So that means you can't ship clothes and your hairbush then?!?!  ??...

No, you can ship personal clothing and grooming items as well, no problem there, as long as you have owned them 12 months.  If you have new items I suggest you just take them in your normal luggage - then classed as "accompanied personal effects" (as opposed to "unaccompanied"! )But seriously, how can they really distinguish when it comes to clothes?  Unless things are still in the original packaging of course!  I thinks it's all about trying to control imports of things that people want to sell and  avoid import duties. 

[Fisher1]

5 minutes ago, AMP said:

No, you can ship personal clothing and grooming items as well, no problem there, as long as you have owned them 12 months.  If you have new items I suggest you just take them in your normal luggage - then classed as "accompanied personal effects" (as opposed to "unaccompanied"! )But seriously, how can they really distinguish when it comes to clothes?  Unless things are still in the original packaging of course!  I thinks it's all about trying to control imports of things that people want to sell and  avoid import duties. 

Well done AMP! Persistence pays off! What's bugging me at the moment is the requirement to steam clean and disinfect shoes!!! I can understand them wanting them clean but they don't check shoes in your suitcase at all, so why so fussy about UPEs ... I'm just stripping because I'd steam cleaned all my shoes and then went out to a goodbye dinner with visiting friends (hysterical sobbing optional) and needed a pair of the shoes I'd already steamed ... So much for being organized!

[AMP]

58 minutes ago, Fisher1 said:

Well done AMP! Persistence pays off! What's bugging me at the moment is the requirement to steam clean and disinfect shoes!!! I can understand them wanting them clean but they don't check shoes in your suitcase at all, so why so fussy about UPEs ... I'm just stripping because I'd steam cleaned all my shoes and then went out to a goodbye dinner with visiting friends (hysterical sobbing optional) and needed a pair of the shoes I'd already steamed ... So much for being organized!

Did you really mean to say stripping?!  Agree, some things seem totally unrealistic - steam clean AND disinfect?!  It's the first I've heard of this so maybe it's just your shipper being ultra fussy.  They just look at shoes when you arrive on a plane, and even then they only look at ones which May have gone over farmland, such as hiking boots. 

[ramot]

21 hours ago, Kathss56 said:

Have no idea but am presuming you would still have to pay into NHS contributions currently at £700 a year to top up pension voluntarily.  That is what they said I could do when I move to Oz and until I am 66-as currently I do not qualify for full state pension as I have been paying into a private one. If I do this I will then get the full state pension.

Each year you get a rise of approx £4.52 Per week (I think was the figure she said when I rang for a forecast last year) ring the number for Gov pensions forecast/statement they are very helpful! 

I don't know if things have changed since I topped up my payments to the state pension, but in  I paid in approximately 700 uk pds a year in the 3 years before my pension was due. I wasn't entitled to a full pension. As long as I lived !!! for 2 years after I started to receive my pension, then the amount of increase pension was balanced out against amount paid. Ok I was lucky I was eligible from age 60, but nearly 13 years later I am well in credit, It was money well spent, and as I am usually in UK for about 3 months most years, then the additional increase while there is pretty good

[Fisher1]

4 hours ago, AMP said:

Did you really mean to say stripping?!  Agree, some things seem totally unrealistic - steam clean AND disinfect?!  It's the first I've heard of this so maybe it's just your shipper being ultra fussy.  They just look at shoes when you arrive on a plane, and even then they only look at ones which May have gone over farmland, such as hiking boots. 

Predictive texting strikes again! I'm not sure what I meant to say now, but it definitely wasn't stripping  I rang the removal company this morning and they said we didn't need to disinfect shoes, just garden stuff and golf clubs ... just as well, the approved disinfectant is Jeyes fluid ... don't fancy walking round for months smelling like a public loo ...

[SusieRoo]

7 hours ago, Fisher1 said:

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this ruling was so disappointing. It seemed to hinge mainly on the fact that national insurance payments don't just cover pensions. So we have one of the meanest paid for state pensions in Europe which is also (I believe) the only one that discontinues  pension upgrades to some of the people who retire outside the EU. Poor decision.

Sounds like a week argument to say NI payments don't cover pensions, when you can't get the full pension without having made NI payments. You would think the link between the two would be indisputable. Funny how EU laws are so week when it comes to protecting the rights of older UK citizens, I bet this pension 'freeze' would not happen if we were French or German. 

They say there is no reciprocal agreement with Australia, but do you think Australians living in the UK have their pensions frozen?  

I guess if I'm struggling in a few year time I can also take up stripping for some extra cash (I may have to ask you for some lessons).

[Fisher1]

10 minutes ago, SusieRoo said:

Sounds like a week argument to say NI payments don't cover pensions, when you can't get the full pension without having made NI payments. You would think the link between the two would be indisputable. Funny how EU laws are so week when it comes to protecting the rights of older UK citizens, I bet this pension 'freeze' would not happen if we were French or German. 

They say there is no reciprocal agreement with Australia, but do you think Australians living in the UK have their pensions frozen?  

I guess if I'm struggling in a few year time I can also take up stripping for some extra cash (I may have to ask you for some lessons).

I don't believe E.U. rulings are particularly weak when protecting the rights of older UK citizens, and have never really understood why they made this judgement; I would have thought the pensioners had a watertight case. To the best of my knowledge, no other E.U. government discriminates like this.

Australia does, I believe, penalise pensioners for living outside Australia, but the two systems aren't comparable. If I have understood it correctly, the Australian aged pension is a means tested benefit and not based on contributions.

As for your interesting employment ideas, I'm thinking pink chiffon and a catchy name ... 'Hell's Grannies'?

Edited July 31, 2017 by Fisher1

[Fisher1]

Hi all, having a bit of a panic.

I've realised that all three of my credit cards are store cards (better perks if you pay back every month) and that they will be cancelled as soon as I tell them I'm living in Australia. So I thought I'd ask my bank for a 'proper' credit card, for those embarrassing moments when you check into a hotel and they want your credit card, etc etc.

I'm now seriously panicking about whether the bank will give me a credit card. I can apply online, because I do currently live in the UK ... any advice?

[Kathss56]

12 minutes ago, Fisher1 said:

Hi all, having a bit of a panic.

I've realised that all three of my credit cards are store cards (better perks if you pay back every month) and that they will be cancelled as soon as I tell them I'm living in Australia. So I thought I'd ask my bank for a 'proper' credit card, for those embarrassing moments when you check into a hotel and they want your credit card, etc etc.

I'm now seriously panicking about whether the bank will give me a credit card. I can apply online, because I do currently live in the UK ... any advice?

Have they never offered you one at least every few weeks via the post?? Just  ask your branch or apply online . If they say no it can hardly effect your credit rating at this stage Also, these days if you say you don't have one they accept debit! 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Kathss56

[Fisher1]

I'm not worried about them refusing me, more that they'll snatch it back! Last time we were in Singapore we didnt have a credit card with us and the hotel were really odd about not having a credit card. I've had time to think a bit now and I think I'll just take my current credit cards along and use them if needed ... We have an account in oz so it would only be during the journey. As far as our cc providers know we are just on a long holiday. Once were safely in Sydney we can just cancel them.  

Thanks for the response :-)

[gafuk]

I might be a bit thick but I really cannot see what a reciprocal agreement between UK an Australia has to do with me getting the fair amount of pension.My payment will be paid into my account by the UK government taken from the pot I have paid into for the last 50 years !. Could it be they ( the politicians) are finding any grubby way they can to make sure there's plenty in the pot for there massive pensions . No I take it back i am sure that wouldn't cross their minds .  I suppose it any of us cannot afford to exist on our frozen pensions we have the option of selling up and coming back to the UK. At least we will have had some quality time with the kids and grandkids. Awful thought but if needs must it's what we will have to do. I presume they won't be able to stop us ?

5 hours ago, Fisher1 said:

reciprocal

 

[Fisher1]

5 minutes ago, gafuk said:

I might be a bit thick but I really cannot see what a reciprocal agreement between UK an Australia has to do with me getting the fair amount of pension.My payment will be paid into my account by the UK government taken from the pot I have paid into for the last 50 years !. Could it be they ( the politicians) are finding any grubby way they can to make sure there's plenty in the pot for there massive pensions . No I take it back i am sure that wouldn't cross their minds .  I suppose it any of us cannot afford to exist on our frozen pensions we have the option of selling up and coming back to the UK. At least we will have had some quality time with the kids and grandkids. Awful thought but if needs must it's what we will have to do. I presume they won't be able to stop us ?

 

No, I can't understand it either. I think it stinks and have been writing to my MP on a regular basis for about five years now. The sad fact is that we have no clout, there's nothing in it for the government so they don't need to be fair. Makes me sick to think that the pension I paid for will be eaten away by inflation.