State of the NHS

[caramac]

38 minutes ago, calNgary said:

In that article it says 

'' He said hospitals were short of 10,000 to 15,000 beds and it was time for the government to decide how to fund the NHS in the long term.''

But what do they really expect when they keep closing hospitals and units down ? I really feel for the Dr's and nurses who are on the front line doing their best and yet taking all the crap from those who are kept waiting. I see no other option than to start charging for misuse of service to those who do missuse it and to clamp down on those who just go to the UK for NHS treatment. 

Cal x

I completely agree re closing beds etc. Walk in centres have been closed, the 111service isn’t fit for purpose (too many unnecessary ambulance calls which diverts crews from more urgent cases), social care cuts which means moving vulnerable people out of acute care into social care is much more difficult, etc etc etc...

I can see the point of charging people who misuse services, but there’s a problem with where the cut off point would be. Do you charge the drunks, the drug takers, the ‘attention seeking ‘suicidal’’, the constant ‘worries well’ who take up an inordinate amount of a gps time. Or do you take it as far as the obese who get type 2 diabetes and the smokers who get copd or lung cancer?

Health tourism is an issue, but it’s difficult to quantify and the admin costs of possibly recouping the 0.3% of the budget it costs is more than it’s thought the overall cost to the health service.

i think this explains the problem quite well - it’s not easy.

https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourists-how-much-do-they-cost-and-who-pays/

[newjez]

On 12/19/2017 at 09:03, bristolman said:

I can't for the life of me understand why so many Aussie nurses choose to come and work in our 3rd world system ?

So um, is er, everything still all okay with the NHS in Hereford shire Mate?

Because when word gets out - half the country are going to be heading your way.

Care to put a positive spin on the current catastrophe?

[BacktoDemocracy]

8 hours ago, caramac said:

I completely agree re closing beds etc. Walk in centres have been closed, the 111service isn’t fit for purpose (too many unnecessary ambulance calls which diverts crews from more urgent cases), social care cuts which means moving vulnerable people out of acute care into social care is much more difficult, etc etc etc...

I can see the point of charging people who misuse services, but there’s a problem with where the cut off point would be. Do you charge the drunks, the drug takers, the ‘attention seeking ‘suicidal’’, the constant ‘worries well’ who take up an inordinate amount of a gps time. Or do you take it as far as the obese who get type 2 diabetes and the smokers who get copd or lung cancer?

Health tourism is an issue, but it’s difficult to quantify and the admin costs of possibly recouping the 0.3% of the budget it costs is more than it’s thought the overall cost to the health service.

i think this explains the problem quite well - it’s not easy.

https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourists-how-much-do-they-cost-and-who-pays/

The problems are well known but the govt will not have the hard conversations with the public about limitations on provision nor will they mount a proper public health campaign about self treatment and diagnosis,  

They would much rather fragment the service,  starve it of funds, not take any responsibility for public health, maintain the illusion that you can have a first class medical service on 3rd world ratios and then palm the whole thing off to the private sector and let them do the dirty work of imposing budget lead rationing and prioitising, nothing to do with us gov', if your insurance doesn't cover it you can't have it, so bugger off.

[caramac]

3 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

The problems are well known but the govt will not have the hard conversations with the public about limitations on provision nor will they mount a proper public health campaign about self treatment and diagnosis,  

They would much rather fragment the service,  starve it of funds, not take any responsibility for public health, maintain the illusion that you can have a first class medical service on 3rd world ratios and then palm the whole thing off to the private sector and let them do the dirty work of imposing budget lead rationing and prioitising, nothing to do with us gov', if your insurance doesn't cover it you can't have it, so bugger off.

And you only have to look at who will benefit from it being put into private hands to know why they’re doing it. 

It utterly sickens me. We have one of the most cost effective health systems in the world and it is affordable in one of the richest countries in the world, but the will isn’t there because those in power aren’t trousering any profit. We’ve seen it in social care, education and housing (more expensive and less quality, accountability and service) and it’s only the pubic’s love of the nhs which means the govt are being careful (sneaky) about how they’re privatising it. 

I think many people are waking up to what’s going, which does give me some hope....

[newjez]

2 hours ago, caramac said:

And you only have to look at who will benefit from it being put into private hands to know why they’re doing it. 

It utterly sickens me. We have one of the most cost effective health systems in the world and it is affordable in one of the richest countries in the world, but the will isn’t there because those in power aren’t trousering any profit. We’ve seen it in social care, education and housing (more expensive and less quality, accountability and service) and it’s only the pubic’s love of the nhs which means the govt are being careful (sneaky) about how they’re privatising it. 

I think many people are waking up to what’s going, which does give me some hope....

It is no surprise public health costs less than private. If you go private and ask anything, generally they will do it, because you are paying for it. With public, you only get it if you need it. I would love to see a private health system which is cheaper and more efficient and effective than a good public system.

[Toots]

You would think with visits to the dentist being free for children that their teeth would be in good nick.  Apparently not though most of the problem is caused by the food and drinks they consume.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-42662425

[Guest]

On 1/10/2018 at 08:12, ali said:

I was reading the other day about how much health tourism is costing the NHS and that trusts are still chasing bills that are in the hundreds of thousands.  The costs i'm sure may have an element of exaggeration/inflation to be a bit more sensationalised, but this is something they're going to have to address surely.  

It may well be free but often getting onto the books of an NHS dentist can see a long wait list. And because of pressure on these dentists, if you fail to make the annual check ups they may well remove you from their books to let others in. I know one of my old dentists had this policy due to demand on his practice. If you didn't make an annual appointment and keep it, you risked losing your place on their books to make way for others on the wait list. 

And even if people can see an NHS dentist, often they simply do not until its too late or an emergency. And therefore don't take their kids till this point either. Add this on to poor dental hygiene, sugary foods/drinks being consumed then its a recipe for disaster. I remember kids at school when my son started in reception who had pretty much stubs for teeth and they were ruined. 

Also I think the school dentist check ups to help identify children in need of dental care was stopped quite a few years ago (though it may still go on to a degree). This at least would ensure kids could be offered the opportunity to see a dentist once a year at vital points in their dental development. 

Also those fancy drinks bottles and long term use using a bottle for milk etc don't help. And lack of drinking just plain water with meals and other times. Can make a huge difference in dental health. People introduce kids to juice, squash and carbonated drinks at a young age and the taste for them sets in. And damage gets done. 

TBH I tend to think the buck with this, if its self inflicted stops with the parents. If you have access to a dentist and don't take your kids for their check ups, its on you. You don't have to feed your kids foods high in sugar or juice or carbonated drinks other than perhaps occasionally. Parents are not helped by the amount of sugar in foods that you'd perhaps not expect. Jars of sauces, sugar in, yogurt, sugar in, tomato sauce, sugar in, many cereals, sugar... its hard to shop when buying prepacked foods as so many have sugar in somewhere. 

[Slean Wolfhead]

5 minutes ago, snifter said:

Parents are not helped by the amount of sugar in foods that you'd perhaps not expect. Jars of sauces, sugar in, yogurt, sugar in, tomato sauce, sugar in, many cereals, sugar... its hard to shop when buying prepacked foods as so many have sugar in somewhere. 

Governments kowtow to the sugar industry which is incredibly powerful and supports hundreds of thousands of jobs.  They know it's killing people but will not do anything about it, just like tobacco before it.   It has to be about people getting wiser and stopping their kids consuming it because your Government won't help, neither in Australia or the UK.  Market forces will dictate, but the sugar industry will respond by just making it cheaper.

As you say, it stops with the parents.....but just think how many of them were brought up the same way and don't do any research or read any labels.  Millions of them...how hard will they try?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Slean Wolfhead

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

As you say, it stops with the parents.....but just think how many of them were brought up the same way and don't do any research or read any labels.  Millions of them...how hard will they try?

There are enough campaigns, posters, online info, news articles and more to inform them of the risks these days. GP's, dentists, schools sending home info, health visitors handing it out during visits and more. That people perhaps throw these leaflets in the bin without reading is on them, that they ignore a GPs advice or a leaflet sent home from school, their choice. You can lead a horse to water and all that. 

I know the argument re cheaper food but again, people can make changes if they want and buy cheaply to make fresh. The last 30 years has seen a huge market in ready/convenience meals and sugar filled foods for sure, we've become accustomed to them, they have taken over and cooking from scratch in some homes is becoming a lost art. If it can be whacked in a microwave and put on a plate inside of 10 minutes and people just do this without bothering to find an alternative, what can be done. Again, its personal choice and if you are willing and able to put in the bit of time and effort for the rewards, it can help. 

I think the direction we are going in, relying on mass produced cheap pre packaged food is leading us to disaster but I am one person. I can only do what I do for myself and my family and make the difference where I can. If that means buying less crap pre packaged food and making more meals from scratch and teaching my kid to grow, prepare and cook his own food while he is young, works for me. Alas the impact from everything else in the world will affect him regardless but I have at least instilled in him an appreciation of decent food, the consequences of crap foods and informed him so he is aware and will hopefully learn from it all and make good choices as he gets older. 

 

[Toots]

9 minutes ago, snifter said:

There are enough campaigns, posters, online info, news articles and more to inform them of the risks these days. GP's, dentists, schools sending home info, health visitors handing it out during visits and more. That people perhaps throw these leaflets in the bin without reading is on them, that they ignore a GPs advice or a leaflet sent home from school, their choice. You can lead a horse to water and all that. 

I know the argument re cheaper food but again, people can make changes if they want and buy cheaply to make fresh. The last 30 years has seen a huge market in ready/convenience meals and sugar filled foods for sure, we've become accustomed to them, they have taken over and cooking from scratch in some homes is becoming a lost art. If it can be whacked in a microwave and put on a plate inside of 10 minutes and people just do this without bothering to find an alternative, what can be done. Again, its personal choice and if you are willing and able to put in the bit of time and effort for the rewards, it can help. 

I think the direction we are going in, relying on mass produced cheap pre packaged food is leading us to disaster but I am one person. I can only do what I do for myself and my family and make the difference where I can. If that means buying less crap pre packaged food and making more meals from scratch and teaching my kid to grow, prepare and cook his own food while he is young, works for me. Alas the impact from everything else in the world will affect him regardless but I have at least instilled in him an appreciation of decent food, the consequences of crap foods and informed him so he is aware and will hopefully learn from it all and make good choices as he gets older. 

 

Yes it's up to parents to watch what goes into their child's mouth.  As far as ready meals go, yes they are convenient but they don't taste very good and for me (a non meat eater) there is no choice out there anyway plus the fact they seem to be rather expensive.  I'd rather eat beans on toast if I'm in rush but even a tin of beans contains sugar.   Sugar seems to be addictive and unfortunately not only is it causing rotting teeth but is also contributing to the type 2 diabetes epidemic.

[ramot]

The supermarkets with chilled counters full of ready made meals horrified me when I was in UK last year. Yes I admit to buying from M&S while I was there, but was on holiday with limited cooking facilities. but to see so many couples often with a toddler in the trolley, in the late afternoon.  buying ready made meals for the family to eat you can only assume for their evening meal. 

This was in Bristol.

I don't live near a busy city here, so don't know if it's the same, but certainly don't see that happening in my local  Woolworths.

I have nearly always bulk cooked  and frozen, it just makes sense to me.

[Slean Wolfhead]

2 hours ago, snifter said:

There are enough campaigns, posters, online info, news articles and more to inform them of the risks these days. GP's, dentists, schools sending home info, health visitors handing it out during visits and more. That people perhaps throw these leaflets in the bin without reading is on them, that they ignore a GPs advice or a leaflet sent home from school, their choice. You can lead a horse to water and all that. 

Exactly.  But you're seeing this culture shift in the UK, similar to how large portions of the USA have gone.  People have had enough of experts, they've become shallow and consumerised and very introspective about their lives.  See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

The way to start would be education but before that, making them understand how important education is to their futures.  I just get the impression that a growing number can't even bothered to read to the bottom of the first page and assume they're always going to be looked after.  It's very "nanny state" and there needs to be more understanding of personal responsibility and accountability.

 

2 hours ago, snifter said:

I think the direction we are going in, relying on mass produced cheap pre packaged food is leading us to disaster but I am one person. I can only do what I do for myself and my family and make the difference where I can. If that means buying less crap pre packaged food and making more meals from scratch and teaching my kid to grow, prepare and cook his own food while he is young, works for me. Alas the impact from everything else in the world will affect him regardless but I have at least instilled in him an appreciation of decent food, the consequences of crap foods and informed him so he is aware and will hopefully learn from it all and make good choices as he gets older. 

That's good. Am currently roasting a joint on the bbq, but everything else has come from the garden.  We haven't bought a ready-meal in 6 years and feel much the better for it.

[Slean Wolfhead]

41 minutes ago, ramot said:

The supermarkets with chilled counters full of ready made meals horrified me when I was in UK last year. Yes I admit to buying from M&S while I was there, but was on holiday with limited cooking facilities. but to see so many couples often with a toddler in the trolley, in the late afternoon.  buying ready made meals for the family to eat you can only assume for their evening meal. 

This was in Bristol.

I don't live near a busy city here, so don't know if it's the same, but certainly don't see that happening in my local  Woolworths.

I have nearly always bulk cooked  and frozen, it just makes sense to me.

Bristol, Birmingham,..they're all the same.   I did 3 weeks there last summer.....the amount of crap i ate and drank was unbelievable, even the pub food was rubbish.  Chain pubs, same menu's, everything dropped off by the same lorry and heated up...nothing fresh or handmade at all.  There were places i used to frequent that i refused to eat at this time...and it will get worse when they cheapen up even further in the next few years..chlorine-washed chicken and fat and sugar for the poor, the best stuff being exported.   The only place i got decent meals was off my mum and dad, who eat very healthily and make it all themselves.

I did like the balti's and Banks's beer though....can't get that in Australia.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Slean Wolfhead

[Guest]

Agree with you @Slean Wolfhead. We have become very consumer led. We must have stuff and things and more stuff and things even when we clearly don’t need more stuff and things. Disposable society with no thought for the future.

I think somewhere many of us got swept up in it as we really didn’t even see it sneak up on us and are slowly waking up to it being a total disaster but we’re not the ones at the wheel so our efforts seem to be in vain but let’s hope we can make a dent as time ticks on. 

Health and well being, some will be more aware or want to be informed and aware more than others. 

ETA - Should the NHS become a pay at point of service or part funded only I think we might see more of a shift in the divide. Some will be able to afford it, some won’t  

[caramac]

1 hour ago, ramot said:

The supermarkets with chilled counters full of ready made meals horrified me when I was in UK last year. Yes I admit to buying from M&S while I was there, but was on holiday with limited cooking facilities. but to see so many couples often with a toddler in the trolley, in the late afternoon.  buying ready made meals for the family to eat you can only assume for their evening meal. 

This was in Bristol.

I don't live near a busy city here, so don't know if it's the same, but certainly don't see that happening in my local  Woolworths.

I have nearly always bulk cooked  and frozen, it just makes sense to me.

It’s definitely happening here in Australia too now. I’ve been a bit saddened by how much convenience food and ready meals are available in the supermarkets here now.

Given that Coles and Woolworths are run by ex uk managers it’s hardly surprising. The shops themselves are so much better than they were 20 years ago, but the availability of c*** is a bit sad. 

There are far more full time two parent working families now than ever before, so I can see the appeal of a ‘quick fix’ dinner, it’s just a shame they’re made of rubbish.

Theres also the issue (certainly in the uk) of cookery being taken off the curriculum - today’s parents never really learned to cook, so can’t pass skills on to their children. It’s a huge time bomb really, just as smoking was in the past.

One thing I have noticed as a positive is that this generation of young people seem much less interested in alcohol than mine was/is, so perhaps it’s not all bad news..

[ramot]

Reference the UK health tourist problem, I don't know if things have changed since I was there last summer, but I had a lousy visit from the health point of view.

A&E visit, plus follow up clinic and sad to say several visits to a GP, 2 visits to the same GP and then 2 separate visits to different Dr.s as we were moving around.

I am not entitled to the NHS, as although I live in Australia I am not an Australian,  on a self funded retirement visa with no reciprocal rights. 

On every occasion I explained my circumstances,  we had insurance cover so it wasn't a problem, and on every occasion I wasn't charged as it was easier for the surgeries/hospital to ignore it, less paper work? So perhaps that is the norm? 

I have a British passport, national insurance number but no NHS?  number.

When I go to the Dr./specialist here, as I don't have Medicare I always have to pay either at once, or my health fund is charged direct, the system just isn't in place in the U.K from my experience.

Sounds as though I am always sick, just hit a bad patch.

[Slean Wolfhead]

18 minutes ago, ramot said:

I am not entitled to the NHS, as although I live in Australia I am not an Australian,  on a self funded retirement visa with no reciprocal rights. 

On every occasion I explained my circumstances,  we had insurance cover so it wasn't a problem, and on every occasion I wasn't charged as it was easier for the surgeries/hospital to ignore it, less paper work? So perhaps that is the norm? 

My parents met an Aussie couple on holiday in the Cotswolds...they said they came to the UK every summer to spend money and stay for a good few months in a caravan, so pretty wealthy.  The old Aussie guy had broken his leg some months before. 

He said he'd been taken to hospital and was treated extremely well, plastered up, then was under Outpatient care until they could fly home.  He told my dad they'd only asked his name and address...so he'd done that and given the address of the caravan park.  They wouldn't take his insurance even though he had it available.

[caramac]

19 minutes ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

My parents met an Aussie couple on holiday in the Cotswolds...they said they came to the UK every summer to spend money and stay for a good few months in a caravan, so pretty wealthy.  The old Aussie guy had broken his leg some months before. 

He said he'd been taken to hospital and was treated extremely well, plastered up, then was under Outpatient care until they could fly home.  He told my dad they'd only asked his name and address...so he'd done that and given the address of the caravan park.  They wouldn't take his insurance even though he had it available.

When we went into Medicare this time, my daughter told them that she is just here temporarily (she is Australian) and was told that although she can’t have a Medicare card (we’d assumed she wouldn’t anyway) she would be seen by a gp or hospital under the reciprocal arrangement, even for non urgent things, so maybe it works like that both ways. I always assumed she’d have to use travel insurance if not resident except for emergencies. 

[newjez]

6 hours ago, Toots said:

You would think with visits to the dentist being free for children that their teeth would be in good nick.  Apparently not though most of the problem is caused by the food and drinks they consume.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-42662425

My wife has just had to go sugar free. It's nearly impossible. They hide sugar everywhere.

[newjez]

4 hours ago, snifter said:

There are enough campaigns, posters, online info, news articles and more to inform them of the risks these days. GP's, dentists, schools sending home info, health visitors handing it out during visits and more. That people perhaps throw these leaflets in the bin without reading is on them, that they ignore a GPs advice or a leaflet sent home from school, their choice. You can lead a horse to water and all that. 

I know the argument re cheaper food but again, people can make changes if they want and buy cheaply to make fresh. The last 30 years has seen a huge market in ready/convenience meals and sugar filled foods for sure, we've become accustomed to them, they have taken over and cooking from scratch in some homes is becoming a lost art. If it can be whacked in a microwave and put on a plate inside of 10 minutes and people just do this without bothering to find an alternative, what can be done. Again, its personal choice and if you are willing and able to put in the bit of time and effort for the rewards, it can help. 

I think the direction we are going in, relying on mass produced cheap pre packaged food is leading us to disaster but I am one person. I can only do what I do for myself and my family and make the difference where I can. If that means buying less crap pre packaged food and making more meals from scratch and teaching my kid to grow, prepare and cook his own food while he is young, works for me. Alas the impact from everything else in the world will affect him regardless but I have at least instilled in him an appreciation of decent food, the consequences of crap foods and informed him so he is aware and will hopefully learn from it all and make good choices as he gets older. 

 

Low fat foods tend to be fully of sugar too.

[newjez]

2 hours ago, ramot said:

The supermarkets with chilled counters full of ready made meals horrified me when I was in UK last year. Yes I admit to buying from M&S while I was there, but was on holiday with limited cooking facilities. but to see so many couples often with a toddler in the trolley, in the late afternoon.  buying ready made meals for the family to eat you can only assume for their evening meal. 

This was in Bristol.

I don't live near a busy city here, so don't know if it's the same, but certainly don't see that happening in my local  Woolworths.

I have nearly always bulk cooked  and frozen, it just makes sense to me.

Not even m&s are sacrosanct http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11952743/Supermarket-ready-meals-contain-double-as-much-sugar-as-can-of-Coca-Cola.html

[Sandgroper]

On 12/01/2018 at 16:16, Amber Snowball said:

Nice one sandgroper. Very interesting.

You’re welcome here to help 

[Sandgroper]

21 hours ago, newjez said:

So um, is er, everything still all okay with the NHS in Hereford shire Mate?

Because when word gets out - half the country are going to be heading your way.

Care to put a positive spin on the current catastrophe?

Don’t bother he’ll just come back with some BS about breaking his leg in 5 places and getting it fixed in under 4 hrs! 

[Guest]

BBC figures are showing 1 in 10 nurses are leaving the NHS every year. Last year 3000 more left than joined the system. Nurses are concerned about hours worked conditions and patient needs not being met.

[simmo]

BBC figures?