LKC Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 People who love Australia are usually a combination of thick skinned, materialistic, lack good taste, don’t appreciate culture/the arts/history (indigenous history is not aussie)/architecture or have come from a lower socio economic background/place in their home country which they resent/blame (chip on shoulder type - say home country has "gone to the dogs" , etc). The latter are the aussies' favourite immigrant because they don't challenge them and actually (and I think it really demonstrates a weak mind) try to adopt the aussie accent/swagger. Maybe I am lucky, but I love Australia and am not any of those things, and I am not sure that it is fair to lump all people who love Australia into the same group. I love the UK too, we moved here for OH's job and not because we came from a low socio-economic area or because we were running away from the UK for any reason. We seem to have landed on our feet here because most of the people that we know are clever, cultured, well travelled and so on, and are certainly not materialistic or shallow. Maybe that is due to the area that we live in. Who knows? I wish you well back in the UK and hope that you find everything you are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 As a long time reader, first time poster I decided I should finally contribute my thoughts on why I'm leaving. Brace yourself if you have willingly assimilated into Aus life :wacko:.My situation: Professional, married (not aussie) with kid, live in Sydney, seen most of Aus due to job. Been here 10 years and will be leaving within the next 12 months. I find the thought of staying here forever very depressing and for some time I've felt like I'm isolated and missing out on real life somewhere else in the real world and that every concept/service/product/event/etc is just a lousy copy of something out of UK/Europe/America i.e. there is no original cutting edge thinking/innovation in Aus. Being from UK, I find the underlying problem with Australia is that it feels like an incomplete country and lacking in soul - scratch beneath the glossy plastic surface of their immigration brochure and there is nothing further to see. Incomplete in that the lack of history, constant dumbing down of everything and nannying by government creates a shallow existence for the locals who seem to do as they're told, never question, think little and only focus on material new stuff. This in turn creates a majority of individuals that, to me, are like apathetic cardboard cut outs of real people - they lack a fully developed personality and their goals are very simplistic and materialistic. If you have personality here, you will intimidate a lot of locals during conversation (if you can actually get conversation momentum going) - quite easy to spot as their eyes glaze over. They think personality & character means adopting some over animated wooden caricature of the white anglo nation’s expectations of, for example, a footballer, or slapstick comedian, shock jock, tough guy, news reporter, intellectual and so on i.e. lots of people with the same wooden personality. You only need to look at the TV personalities to confirm it – they’re second rate. People who love Australia are usually a combination of thick skinned, materialistic, lack good taste, don’t appreciate culture/the arts/history (indigenous history is not aussie)/architecture or have come from a lower socio economic background/place in their home country which they resent/blame (chip on shoulder type - say home country has "gone to the dogs" , etc). The latter are the aussies' favourite immigrant because they don't challenge them and actually (and I think it really demonstrates a weak mind) try to adopt the aussie accent/swagger. The parochialism, blind nationalism and ignorant “aus is best” mentality is also intolerable as is the nanny state approach to everything which the locals just seem to accept. Time to start planning a well deserved escape (and no, I won't let the door hit me on the way out for all you hilarious types). ........wow....! ........I sincerely hope these are just feelings you've felt in the latter part of life here.... ........10 years to feel trapped....? .........you couldn't of returned soon after Australia failed to meet your needs and wants....? .........I guess many do concentrate on the negatives of anywhere when it fails to fulfill us.... .........I'm sorry you only met such apathetic cardboard cut outs..... ..........who were you mixing with....? ..........lower social economic poms.....not just people who have moved for a better life style than what they had...? ..........we see in people what we want to see IMO..... ...........and we take ourselves wherever we go......... ...........if you look for negatives you'll find them..... ...........many of your observations may be true....... ...........it's a young country compared with the U.K.... ...........I hope the uk still has all the things you hold so dear..... ............but to of found none of it in Australia says to me you didn't look hard enough.... ............meet the people.....that are out there......that you feel akin too.... .............it's often not about ....just......where you live.... ..............it's about your attitude to life......and willingness to accept the different.... ..............seek out the same....... ..............and if it doesn't work out.......do what you can to change it..... ...............some are not so lucky to be able to change their circumstance.... ...............and have to make the best of life.....your lucky that you can..shame if it's taken 10 years.... ...............good luck to you.......I hope you find what your looking for...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) .The parochialism, blind nationalism and ignorant “aus is best” mentality is also intolerable as is the nanny state approach to everything which the locals just seem to accept. All countries have good and bad points. It's common, when you're unhappy, to see only the bad points - but it's important to be aware of that, and not start insulting people who see it differently. I had to laugh at parts of your post. Having arrived back in the UK from Oz less than 6 months ago, the comparison between the two countries is very fresh in my mind. I can identify with the "thick skinned, materialistic" description as it relates to Sydney corporate culture - but I look at the lifestyle of my sister and other relatives in London, and I don't see any real difference. I think it's a problem that afflicts large cities all over the English-speaking world now, sadly. As for a nanny state - the sense of entitlement here in the UK is absolutely breathtaking, much worse than in Australia. I see it all around me as I'm in Southampton - there is a real sense that the state should provide everything, except in the Polish community! Even quite affluent people are affected - I see people with health or dental problems, who could easily afford to pay for private treatment but won't because they're "entitled" to treatment to the NHS - so they'll sit in abject misery for a year or two on a waiting list. Parochialism, blind nationalism - England, Scotland and Wales have become much more nationalistic while I was away. As for TV - coverage of sport favours British sports people just as much as Oz TV favours Australians (the recent Rugby World Cup a great example). That's not something that is unique to either Australia or the UK - go to France or Italy and you'll feel frustrated that Italian teams are favoured. It's been that way forever - I'm reminded of the old story about the Aberdeen newspaper who reported the Titanic sinking as "North East Man Lost at Sea". Edited October 14, 2015 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 What I don't get is the anger. If you are not happy somewhere- leave. I do't understand ( truly!) the need to slag off a place just because you don't fit in and don't enjoy living there. Even worse, to generalise and make comments about all the inhabitants just shows ignorance in my book. It must be awful to have that burning up inside you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi69 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Why on earth would someone stay 10 years in a place they hate. smells like bulls*it to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colettemg123 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 As a long time reader, first time poster I decided I should finally contribute my thoughts on why I'm leaving. Brace yourself if you have willingly assimilated into Aus life :wacko:.My situation: Professional, married (not aussie) with kid, live in Sydney, seen most of Aus due to job. Been here 10 years and will be leaving within the next 12 months. I find the thought of staying here forever very depressing and for some time I've felt like I'm isolated and missing out on real life somewhere else in the real world and that every concept/service/product/event/etc is just a lousy copy of something out of UK/Europe/America i.e. there is no original cutting edge thinking/innovation in Aus. Being from UK, I find the underlying problem with Australia is that it feels like an incomplete country and lacking in soul - scratch beneath the glossy plastic surface of their immigration brochure and there is nothing further to see. Incomplete in that the lack of history, constant dumbing down of everything and nannying by government creates a shallow existence for the locals who seem to do as they're told, never question, think little and only focus on material new stuff. This in turn creates a majority of individuals that, to me, are like apathetic cardboard cut outs of real people - they lack a fully developed personality and their goals are very simplistic and materialistic. If you have personality here, you will intimidate a lot of locals during conversation (if you can actually get conversation momentum going) - quite easy to spot as their eyes glaze over. They think personality & character means adopting some over animated wooden caricature of the white anglo nation’s expectations of, for example, a footballer, or slapstick comedian, shock jock, tough guy, news reporter, intellectual and so on i.e. lots of people with the same wooden personality. You only need to look at the TV personalities to confirm it – they’re second rate. People who love Australia are usually a combination of thick skinned, materialistic, lack good taste, don’t appreciate culture/the arts/history (indigenous history is not aussie)/architecture or have come from a lower socio economic background/place in their home country which they resent/blame (chip on shoulder type - say home country has "gone to the dogs" , etc). The latter are the aussies' favourite immigrant because they don't challenge them and actually (and I think it really demonstrates a weak mind) try to adopt the aussie accent/swagger. The parochialism, blind nationalism and ignorant “aus is best” mentality is also intolerable as is the nanny state approach to everything which the locals just seem to accept. Time to start planning a well deserved escape (and no, I won't let the door hit me on the way out for all you hilarious types). Long time reader, first time poster, 10 years in oz, and never felt the need to contribute anything to this forum previously? Perhaps to offer some support, advice to others? Thanks for sharing your first post and hopefully your last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Why on earth would someone stay 10 years in a place they hate. smells like bulls*it to me ........I would hope the OP......has good reason to of been trapped ........because if not it makes a mockery of those who truely are..... ........to live somewhere you hate....that doesn't even meet your needs..... ........to have no chance of changing your circumstances.... ........everyone around you lacking in anything thing you can engage with..... ........has made you so cynical of everything to do with where your at..... ........to be unable to see past a jaundiced view of life....blaming and encompassing everything and everybody accossiated with where your at..... ........says much about attitude to life..... ........it's not war torn Syria ,a refugee desperate to flee.... ........it's a person fallen out of joy with where their at..... ........many do.......and have to get on with life.... ........search out the good bits..... ........to of waited for years with such views ! ........has perhaps poisoned their soul..... ........will it be different in the uk.....? ........one can only hope so.............because you take yourself wherever you go....... ........again I wish them luck..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea4too Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 What I don't get is the anger. If you are not happy somewhere- leave. I do't understand ( truly!) the need to slag off a place just because you don't fit in and don't enjoy living there. Even worse, to generalise and make comments about all the inhabitants just shows ignorance in my book. It must be awful to have that burning up inside you. People often write as they see it, sometimes with little thought to the words used and with little regard for how people might feel if sweeping generalisations are made. And it is not exclusive to people MBTTUK as some seemingly long time happily settled folk in Aus will post ridiculous (imo) sweeping statements about kids, people and lifestyles in the UK, with tenuous links to family, friends, holidays, people they know in the ‘old country’ to validate the generalisation. How much it irritates may depend on whether you see any merit in what is written, or how much you value the things being slated. Sometimes a sentence or paragraph will be so outside of some one else’s experience that it stirs a real sense of injustice and incomprehension. But most of the time I think I have to agree with @snifter (#26) because no-one can tell someone else how to feel. If you feel Aus is the pits then, for you, it is and you are absolutely right to pack up and leave as soon as you can. If you feel the UK is dismal with little to offer in the long term you are probably right and it’s a good thing that you are moving or have moved already. Find what ticks your boxes in life and go for it, but maybe don‘t assume that everyone else is working to the same tick list. T x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Well, I might get this deleted , but sometimes you really can see why people cannot settle here. They will then go on to say how unfriendly Australia is , but for most of us can see where the real problem lies and it's definitely closer to home. Edited October 13, 2015 by Que Sera, Sera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi69 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 ........I would hope the OP......has good reason to of been trapped ........because if not it makes a mockery of those who truely are..... ........to live somewhere you hate....that doesn't even meet your needs..... ........to have no chance of changing your circumstances.... ........everyone around you lacking in anything thing you can engage with..... ........has made you so cynical of everything to do with where your at..... ........to be unable to see past a jaundiced view of life....blaming and encompassing everything and everybody accossiated with where your at..... ........says much about attitude to life..... ........it's not war torn Syria ,a refugee desperate to flee.... ........it's a person fallen out of joy with where their at..... ........many do.......and have to get on with life.... ........search out the good bits..... ........to of waited for years with such views ! ........has perhaps poisoned their soul..... ........will it be different in the uk.....? ........one can only hope so.............because you take yourself wherever you go....... ........again I wish them luck..... If the OP had felt trapped, then I'm sure they would have said . Different kettle of fish that, to just feeling meh.... We can all get down with the grind Tink, and dream of faraway shores. That is totally different to hating the place, why would you stay 10 years?? If your in a bad family situation, it may be hard to see a way out. But surely its better to get out as soon as you know its wrong. of course there is always a reason not to leave?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest241083 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 If the OP had felt trapped, then I'm sure they would have said . Different kettle of fish that, to just feeling meh.... We can all get down with the grind Tink, and dream of faraway shores. That is totally different to hating the place, why would you stay 10 years?? If your in a bad family situation, it may be hard to see a way out. But surely its better to get out as soon as you know its wrong. of course there is always a reason not to leave?? ........sorry Fifi......I was being a little sarcastic.....:embarrassed: ........there are so many trapped in situations that they cannot change.... ........and I meant ,I hoped the OP had good reason to of felt so.... ........because as you say..... ........to have felt so.....and stayed so long..... ........seems a little strange.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzly111 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 They do think Aussie is best - which is often laughable unless its to do with certain sports! I agree, though, if you are a professional with a precise way of speech then you will find many aussies (especially in regional areas) are intimidated by this. I found it best to tone things down, learn and insert some of the local slang in....sometimes with comical results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacaranda Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I don't recall any of the posters on here saying the UK is a shithole or maligning people who choose to live in the UK. Well I do,and Ive been on this forum for years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie22 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sorry to say that I agree with a lot of Pomstar's comments and after reading the original post, knew exactly what would follow. What I don't get about this forum is that when a post on the MBTUK site comes up, you always get posters who are happy in Oz slamming them down and basically telling them to pee off if they don't like it. I didn't discover this forum until I decided to move back to UK and googled it. It was then a breath of fresh air to find MBTUK with useful info and some like minded folk but wasn't long before I realised quickly that the happy expats will very quickly contradict and argue with you. And I couldn't quite get why they did that as if they're so happy here, why does it bother them that a minority of expats don't share your views? A lot of the posts written on here are written when we're feeling anger, sadness, excitement etc and that's how they should be read too. Some are obviously also written to cause a stir and they're always successful - well done Pomstar! Also, you can't judge somebody's whole life through a few short sentences. The OP went on to say that they've had good times, travelled and made friends so haven't been wallowing in misery for 10 yrs like some posts have suggested. It can be very easy to tell people who are unhappy to pack up and leave but everybody's circumstances are different and life is never quite that easy. From a fellow expat who will soon be leaving, I wish the OP and their family all the best in their future X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sorry to say that I agree with a lot of Pomstar's comments and after reading the original post, knew exactly what would follow. What I don't get about this forum is that when a post on the MBTUK site comes up, you always get posters who are happy in Oz slamming them down and basically telling them to pee off if they don't like it. I didn't discover this forum until I decided to move back to UK and googled it. It was then a breath of fresh air to find MBTUK with useful info and some like minded folk but wasn't long before I realised quickly that the happy expats will very quickly contradict and argue with you. And I couldn't quite get why they did that as if they're so happy here, why does it bother them that a minority of expats don't share your views? A lot of the posts written on here are written when we're feeling anger, sadness, excitement etc and that's how they should be read too. Some are obviously also written to cause a stir and they're always successful - well done Pomstar! Also, you can't judge somebody's whole life through a few short sentences. The OP went on to say that they've had good times, travelled and made friends so haven't been wallowing in misery for 10 yrs like some posts have suggested. It can be very easy to tell people who are unhappy to pack up and leave but everybody's circumstances are different and life is never quite that easy. From a fellow expat who will soon be leaving, I wish the OP and their family all the best in their future X It may surprise you but MBTTUK is also read by prospective migrants. I know that I did as I thought it important to be aware of the potential pitfalls. However if this was populated solely by bitter, angry or regretful migrants there would be no balance. The important thing about any forum is to balance the views from different perspectives; returnees should not be free to make any unsubstantiated allegations about a country and its people they wish to without fear of contradiction. I also find that posters are rightly taken to task when they post that they are escaping the UK because it is going to the dogs or similar such nonsense. I don't actually see any of the long term ex-pats who post on this forum slating people who choose to live in either country. In this instance the OP was not criticising Australia so much as the people who would choose to live there which is nasty and gratuitous in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sorry to say that I agree with a lot of Pomstar's comments and after reading the original post, knew exactly what would follow. What I don't get about this forum is that when a post on the MBTUK site comes up, you always get posters who are happy in Oz slamming them down and basically telling them to pee off if they don't like it. I didn't discover this forum until I decided to move back to UK and googled it. It was then a breath of fresh air to find MBTUK with useful info and some like minded folk but wasn't long before I realised quickly that the happy expats will very quickly contradict and argue with you. And I couldn't quite get why they did that as if they're so happy here, why does it bother them that a minority of expats don't share your views? A lot of the posts written on here are written when we're feeling anger, sadness, excitement etc and that's how they should be read too. Some are obviously also written to cause a stir and they're always successful - well done Pomstar! Also, you can't judge somebody's whole life through a few short sentences. The OP went on to say that they've had good times, travelled and made friends so haven't been wallowing in misery for 10 yrs like some posts have suggested. It can be very easy to tell people who are unhappy to pack up and leave but everybody's circumstances are different and life is never quite that easy. From a fellow expat who will soon be leaving, I wish the OP and their family all the best in their future X if carlsberg did posts of the year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilliboy Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 You obviously write well,however the content of your post is one dimensional. It appears emotionally driven and indicates a lack of balance and critical reflection.A three dimensional critique of the pros and cons of Australia and a summary detailing objective reasons for your choice to leave would have been of greater benefit to other forum users.Good luck with the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith and Linda Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Doctors and nurses holding protests recently against the winding down of NHS, held placards including ones that stated things like "Don't Make Us Move To OZ'. Yep I'm afraid Australia has very serious issues ahead. Housing being an issue of serious concern. Still the sun shines and there's always the sand dunes on the beach when things get tougher. Think you misinterpreted the message on those placards. They meant don't make us have to move to Oz for a better deal than we can get here. Yep! that's how I read it too, still Australia can not be too bad if it is their first choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie22 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 It may surprise you but MBTTUK is also read by prospective migrants. I know that I did as I thought it important to be aware of the potential pitfalls. However if this was populated solely by bitter, angry or regretful migrants there would be no balance. The important thing about any forum is to balance the views from different perspectives; returnees should not be free to make any unsubstantiated allegations about a country and its people they wish to without fear of contradiction. I also find that posters are rightly taken to task when they post that they are escaping the UK because it is going to the dogs or similar such nonsense. I don't actually see any of the long term ex-pats who post on this forum slating people who choose to live in either country. In this instance the OP was not criticising Australia so much as the people who would choose to live there which is nasty and gratuitous in my view. Not sure if it surprises me that the prospective migrants read the MBTUK posts but it does a little that the happy expats do, however at the end of the day like you say we need balanced opinions and everyone has a right to say what they want. When I first read this post I read it that the poster was either very unhappy at the time of writing or it was a wind up and they knew exactly what reactions they were going to get. And to all prospective migrants out there, don't worry it's only a minority of expats who do not like living in Australia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 As a long time reader, first time poster I decided I should finally contribute my thoughts on why I'm leaving. Brace yourself if you have willingly assimilated into Aus life :wacko:.My situation: Professional, married (not aussie) with kid, live in Sydney, seen most of Aus due to job. Been here 10 years and will be leaving within the next 12 months. I find the thought of staying here forever very depressing and for some time I've felt like I'm isolated and missing out on real life somewhere else in the real world and that every concept/service/product/event/etc is just a lousy copy of something out of UK/Europe/America i.e. there is no original cutting edge thinking/innovation in Aus. Being from UK, I find the underlying problem with Australia is that it feels like an incomplete country and lacking in soul - scratch beneath the glossy plastic surface of their immigration brochure and there is nothing further to see. Incomplete in that the lack of history, constant dumbing down of everything and nannying by government creates a shallow existence for the locals who seem to do as they're told, never question, think little and only focus on material new stuff. This in turn creates a majority of individuals that, to me, are like apathetic cardboard cut outs of real people - they lack a fully developed personality and their goals are very simplistic and materialistic. If you have personality here, you will intimidate a lot of locals during conversation (if you can actually get conversation momentum going) - quite easy to spot as their eyes glaze over. They think personality & character means adopting some over animated wooden caricature of the white anglo nation’s expectations of, for example, a footballer, or slapstick comedian, shock jock, tough guy, news reporter, intellectual and so on i.e. lots of people with the same wooden personality. You only need to look at the TV personalities to confirm it – they’re second rate. People who love Australia are usually a combination of thick skinned, materialistic, lack good taste, don’t appreciate culture/the arts/history (indigenous history is not aussie)/architecture or have come from a lower socio economic background/place in their home country which they resent/blame (chip on shoulder type - say home country has "gone to the dogs" , etc). The latter are the aussies' favourite immigrant because they don't challenge them and actually (and I think it really demonstrates a weak mind) try to adopt the aussie accent/swagger. The parochialism, blind nationalism and ignorant “aus is best” mentality is also intolerable as is the nanny state approach to everything which the locals just seem to accept. Time to start planning a well deserved escape (and no, I won't let the door hit me on the way out for all you hilarious types). Don't hold back then, hope you survive the s**tstorm that is about to hit you from the dyed in the wool converts on here, but in truth you have nailed it, the only thing you left out was the comedians that imagine they run the country. About 10 years is the point at which the futility of trying to make it work seems to hit home. But do a recce back to the uk because it's a very different country from even 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Well I do,and Ive been on this forum for years! So do l, loads of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Don't hold back then, hope you survive the s**tstorm that is about to hit you from the dyed in the wool converts on here, but in truth you have nailed it, the only thing you left out was the comedians that imagine they run the country.About 10 years is the point at which the futility of trying to make it work seems to hit home. But do a recce back to the uk because it's a very different country from even 10 years ago. You seem to be quite angry at a place you don't live in. I wouldn't worry about it...Just enjoy whatever you find much superior in England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vickyplum Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I don't really notice any difference at work between the 2 countries. Substiture NRL for Premier league and it is very similar [...] True actually! And I notice a lot of Championship / European football conversations going on in the office, so they've got NRL and European football to discuss... double the bonus :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Well at least I don't make where I live a secret. Obviously not that secret... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 That's fine but the OP didn't have to be so rude or come across as being better than many of us who are happy here. That's just being arrogant. TBH he sounds more like someone who has had a gut full of being here. Which is fair enough, it's not a crime to hold opinions, even if they're negative ones. It doesn't mean that they are the truth, just his opinions. I do agree with the dumbing down bit though. The mainstream media (ABC and SBS aside) here is ****ing woeful and IMO a stain on this grate nation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.