Gbye grey sky Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 52 minutes ago, Johndoe said: I shared the very same thoughts about Scargill and other Union leaders and still do, but just look at the state they left Britain in. Good intentions are not enough for successful leadership as you need to be a pragmatist that knows just how far you can go with your ideals without creating a backlash and when to back off. Unfortunately, I don't think Corbyn does. With respect I would not apply those qualities I listed to Arthur Scargill. Like a number of union leaders of his ilk it was mainly about leveraging his power base for personal aggrandisement and influence. His actions ultimately inadvertently hastened the demise of coal mining jobs by a couple of decades as he deliberately placed his members in the firing line in a 'winner-takes-all' confrontation with a Thatcher government which cleverly stockpiled reserves and beat them into submission. Though Thatcher has been attributed with all of the blame for what happened Scargill painted her into a corner essentially. There was only really ever going to be one winner. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 12 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said: With respect I would not apply those qualities I listed to Arthur Scargill. Like a number of union leaders of his ilk it was mainly about leveraging his power base for personal aggrandisement and influence. His actions ultimately inadvertently hastened the demise of coal mining jobs by a couple of decades as he deliberately placed his members in the firing line in a 'winner-takes-all' confrontation with a Thatcher government which cleverly stockpiled reserves and beat them into submission. Though Thatcher has been attributed with all of the blame for what happened Scargill painted her into a corner essentially. There was only really ever going to be one winner. Totally agree with your last para but would dispute your statement regarding Scargill and other union leaders. Accepted that there would likely be some, Scargill included, who may have "come across" as seeking personal aggrandisement, but I met and talked with him as I had also done with a few union leaders such as Vic Feather and Len Murray and they all seemed totally committed to the betterment of the working class and to the nation as a whole. Pragmatism was not the best of Scargill's attributes, and he ended up being his, and the working classes as a whole, worst enemy. That said, I never doubted his ideals. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 46 minutes ago, Johndoe said: Totally agree with your last para but would dispute your statement regarding Scargill and other union leaders. Accepted that there would likely be some, Scargill included, who may have "come across" as seeking personal aggrandisement, but I met and talked with him as I had also done with a few union leaders such as Vic Feather and Len Murray and they all seemed totally committed to the betterment of the working class and to the nation as a whole. Pragmatism was not the best of Scargill's attributes, and he ended up being his, and the working classes as a whole, worst enemy. That said, I never doubted his ideals. It is difficult because I only have knowledge of Scargill the man from an almost exclusively hostile media plus a number of his interviews. I like to think that I can apply my own filters as I did with Corbyn and the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone and others in Scargill's era. Whereas these 4 faced similar trial by media and doubtless had a great deal in common with Scargill's political leanings I have never felt the same concerns about these men and their personal motivations. Scargill came across to me as someone for whom the means to achieving an outcome was far less important than the outcome itself. A bully that you really would not wish to ever get on the wrong side of and not someone open to debate. Perhaps I misread him. I don't think I did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 3 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said: Agree. Glad I am not involved in this one. I like Corbyn as a rare example of a sincere, principled, thinking, measured, politician who cares about people other than himself. Unfortunately few of his colleagues in Parliament come close hence his unpopularity with the PLP. I think he would struggle to govern, not due to any personal failings but because his principles are not widely shared by his parliamentary colleagues. May is an opportunist who has no obvious principles other than to do or say whatever she feels is most appropriate to assume and/or retain her position. I actually find it hard to believe that she would actually favour 'no deal' on Brexit in reality as her instinct is not to rock the boat too much. She is also very calculating and probably concerned about her legacy as leader. I also think that the Tories really should 'own' Brexit and its legacy. Despite the gains made by Corbyn during the campaign in this particular case the Tories shameless 'project fear' using terrorism will probably see them over the line though the tone of their campaign leaves a really nasty taste - a sign of where democracy has been heading in the social media age. That is the big worry. Project fear seems to have backfired recently with brexit and Trump. The Tories have run a very negative and bitter campaign. I don't know what the outcome will be, but I doubt the polls will be accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Rallyman said: What about the garden tax on page 86 of the labour manifest From the mirror “Our plan is to see what needs to be done to ensure that working people don’t pay more. We'll look at how we can make council tax fairer but we’ll not be introducing a separate Land Value Tax on residential property.” Council tax does need reform. The recent case in Surrey where the council tried to raise council tax above inflation before the govt shut them down. Much of the problem revolves around care for the elderly. The Tories were looking at it in an equally unpopular way of funding. You can't get away from the fact that we have an aging population, the cost is on the council, and they have to find it somehow. Part of the benefits are that if we can solve care for the elderly, there will be savings on the NHS, which is being used as a pseudo old people's home. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Gbye grey sky said: It is difficult because I only have knowledge of Scargill the man from an almost exclusively hostile media plus a number of his interviews. I like to think that I can apply my own filters as I did with Corbyn and the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone and others in Scargill's era. Whereas these 4 faced similar trial by media and doubtless had a great deal in common with Scargill's political leanings I have never felt the same concerns about these men and their personal motivations. Scargill came across to me as someone for whom the means to achieving an outcome was far less important than the outcome itself. A bully that you really would not wish to ever get on the wrong side of and not someone open to debate. Perhaps I misread him. I don't think I did. Yes he was a bully, and not a very likeable man as I saw how he verbally berated anyone who questioned him at branch meetings, but that doesn't/shouldn't detract from his lofty idealism and having very genuine concerns for the working man. He laid himself "on the line" many times both physically and verbally in his fight for socialist principles. One of the few union leaders who stood on a picket line with his members as opposed to those "leaders" who led from the rear via the media. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Johndoe said: Yes he was a bully, and not a very likeable man as I saw how he verbally berated anyone who questioned him at branch meetings, but that doesn't/shouldn't detract from his lofty idealism and having very genuine concerns for the working man. He laid himself "on the line" many times both physically and verbally in his fight for socialist principles. One of the few union leaders who stood on a picket line with his members as opposed to those "leaders" who led from the rear via the media. What's he doing now ? I was working constructing the M42 motorway when the miners strike was on and vividly remember being held by the police at a roundabout junction on the A5 so that bus load after bus load of police could get over to Nottingham to police the pickets ,we were held there for about 15-20 mins. A real eye opener to me at the time and thought you will never beat Thatcher and will end up with nothing out of the strike, the only result was split communities and still to this day the split runs deep in some areas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Well, todays the big day. I will be driving back from my project tonight after work for 3 hours to vote and then drive back at 4am tomorrow. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 40 minutes ago, Rallyman said: What's he doing now ? He's a recluse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 6 hours ago, Johndoe said: I shared the very same thoughts about Scargill and other Union leaders and still do, but just look at the state they left Britain in. Good intentions are not enough for successful leadership as you need to be a pragmatist that knows just how far you can go with your ideals without creating a backlash and when to back off. Unfortunately, I don't think Corbyn does. That's called sticking to your principles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said: With respect I would not apply those qualities I listed to Arthur Scargill. Like a number of union leaders of his ilk it was mainly about leveraging his power base for personal aggrandisement and influence. His actions ultimately inadvertently hastened the demise of coal mining jobs by a couple of decades as he deliberately placed his members in the firing line in a 'winner-takes-all' confrontation with a Thatcher government which cleverly stockpiled reserves and beat them into submission. Though Thatcher has been attributed with all of the blame for what happened Scargill painted her into a corner essentially. There was only really ever going to be one winner. To a degree I fear you are right, but Thatcher did want a confrontation and was intent upon taking the miners down for all the defeats they had over the Tories so it was not all one sided, and show me a politician who is not in it for power and aggrandisement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said: It is difficult because I only have knowledge of Scargill the man from an almost exclusively hostile media plus a number of his interviews. I like to think that I can apply my own filters as I did with Corbyn and the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone and others in Scargill's era. Whereas these 4 faced similar trial by media and doubtless had a great deal in common with Scargill's political leanings I have never felt the same concerns about these men and their personal motivations. Scargill came across to me as someone for whom the means to achieving an outcome was far less important than the outcome itself. A bully that you really would not wish to ever get on the wrong side of and not someone open to debate. Perhaps I misread him. I don't think I did. Mining I fear produced few reflective men unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amibovered Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Bookies today more confident of a Conservative win, you can get 11/1 on Labour if you fancy them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottieGirl Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Is Diane Abbott really sick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottieGirl Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 3 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said: Well, todays the big day. I will be driving back from my project tonight after work for 3 hours to vote and then drive back at 4am tomorrow. Whatever happened to the postal vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collie Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Vote early and vote often 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Labs already losing seats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 2 hours ago, ScottieGirl said: Whatever happened to the postal vote? I didn't know I would be here till after the deadline - the project should be finished Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 2 hours ago, ScottieGirl said: Is Diane Abbott really sick? She didn't look very well, but I still think she's been promoted for loyalty rather than skill. Funny - I used to work for Amex, and they said you could be skillful, or loyal and you would be welcome. Preferably both. But if you were neither - they showed you the door. There were a lot of loyal people at Amex. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottieGirl Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 hour ago, newjez said: She didn't look very well, but I still think she's been promoted for loyalty rather than skill. Funny - I used to work for Amex, and they said you could be skillful, or loyal and you would be welcome. Preferably both. But if you were neither - they showed you the door. There were a lot of loyal people at Amex. Well she clearly wasn't promoted for skill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, ScottieGirl said: Well she clearly wasn't promoted for skill Skill in what? apparently she has demonstrated her skill on JC once or twice <==8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sunset said: Labs already losing seats? Nothing like the power of negative, wishful thinking Edited June 8, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 3 hours ago, Sunset said: Labs already losing seats? Crufts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 (edited) Exit polls, hung parliament. Oh shit. Glad I moved all my money into USD and Euro yesterday. Edited June 8, 2017 by newjez 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, newjez said: Exit polls, hung parliament. Well that would wipe a few smiles off some smarmy rosy cheeked faces 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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