simmo Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/454142/Father-reveals-his-fury-after-he-is-fined-for-taking-his-children-on-holiday-during-term I was listening to vanessa on radio london debating this yesterday and wondered what the PIO take on it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 I got back late at night on 2 occasions and let the kids have the day off but apart from that they have 99% and 100% attendance (we get attendance records from the school) But after hearing some of the stories on the radio yesterday about less well off families i think is a tough call. The holiday companies inflate the prices so much in school holiday periods that a lot working families just cant afford annual family holidays.. I suppose if kids are preparing for exams and stuff its important but apart from that isn't quallity family time together important too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramac Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Not since mine have been at exam age, but we took our eldest out for 8 weeks when she was in year 1 so we could have a long holiday in the UK. She spent four of those weeks at her friend's school which was a great experience for her. We also took them out for three weeks before one Christmas (here in the UK) so we could have a five week holiday in Australia while they were all still in junior school. We've done odd days here and there and we had an enforced long stay in Aus in 2010 because of the volcano. Their school did give them work to do via the portal that time -eldest was doing some GCSEs that summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjg Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Probably better in the education section......... i think the new ruling is hitting the wrong people really. Its the habitual truancy that needs to be hit hard. If a kid is not sitting in front of the teacher, they are missing out. Who's responsibility is it about that kid catching up? 99% of people would say its upto the kid to catch up. But realistically it's not. The individual teacher and school is assessed on the grade of every child. If a kid takes time off which has a detriment on grades, it doesn't matter, the school has still 'failed'. It also depends on where you teach and whom you teach. Most of the kids I have ever taught have not bothered catching up after absences. This is if they were legitimately sick, truanting, off on a holiday or in hospital. I tell them all that I don't need to catch up, I've already finished my schooling. This is their education, it's up to them to catch up in their own time. Far too many expect me to drop everything during class time to help them catch up on what they had missed the week before because they were absent. I always tell them I am happy to help them in any way possible and that I will even give up my own lunch break to help them. I will not waste class time when everyone else who was present has moved on. Less than 1 in 20 will come for help, most say that they are not going to waste 'their' lunchtime. They don't really get it when I tell them that their lack of commitment is just wasting 'their' own education. I wonder how many days off in addition to this the kids had? Unsurprisingly, this is not mentioned at all in the article. If they had an attendance of less than 95%, then took the holiday this would drop their attendance below 90%. That is unacceptable. An attendance of 90% sounds really good, but it's not. 90% attendance means the kid has one day off every fortnight. If this happens to be a Monday when I have a double science lesson, it means they are only turning up to 4/6 lessons. Only two thirds attendance means they will invariably fail due to the fact that they will not make up the missed work to any great standard. And why should I give up a lunchtime every second week for the same kid if they couldn't be bothered turning up to the scheduled class? In conclusion. My view is : No previous absence, with missing work completed; enjoy your holiday. Less than 95% attendance. I take no responsibility for your lack of attainment. Sorry, you asked for the time and I built you a watch. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjg Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 .. isn't quallity family time together important too? Kids are in school about 7 hours per day, for 195 days per year. (It's only 6 hours and 10 minutes at the school I teach so you can count travel time as time at school too) 7x195= 1365 hours in school. 24x365= 8760 hours in a year. 1365/8760 x 100 = 15.5% of a year spent in school (assuming no days off!) Therefore simmo you have 84.5% of your kids lives per year to have quality family time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramac Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I think you're right dmjg. At five my daughter didn't need to do any catching up and she only really missed two weeks of schooling at her school anyway. Two weeks were holidays in Aus and she spent four weeks of the eight at school in England. The next time they just wrote diaries (which the teachers asked them to do, then never looked at). If there was any catching up to do, they must have managed it, but we chose to go away before Christmas when it was parties, concerts, plays etc. They all seem able to ask for help now if they're off for any reason - they know if they don't, there may well be a problem when they turn their exam papers over!! Since they've been teenagers we've always told them that it's their responsibility to make sure they're on top of their work - their teachers are always willing to help, but they have whole classes to teach, so they have to go and seek them out in their own time. Either that, or borrow notes from friends. Seems to have worked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjg Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I think you're right dmjg. At five my daughter didn't need to do any catching up and she only really missed two weeks of schooling at her school anyway. Two weeks were holidays in Aus and she spent four weeks of the eight at school in England. The next time they just wrote diaries (which the teachers asked them to do, then never looked at). If there was any catching up to do, they must have managed it, but we chose to go away before Christmas when it was parties, concerts, plays etc. They all seem able to ask for help now if they're off for any reason - they know if they don't, there may well be a problem when they turn their exam papers over!! Since they've been teenagers we've always told them that it's their responsibility to make sure they're on top of their work - their teachers are always willing to help, but they have whole classes to teach, so they have to go and seek them out in their own time. Either that, or borrow notes from friends. Seems to have worked... Ive always claimed that parents have much more influence on their final grades than teachers ever will. Your final comments just clarify that... I forgot to add a caveat on age. The job of primary school is to give kids a good foundation in English and maths. As long as these don't fall behind in primary school (ie write a diary and practise your times tables), let the kids take a month or so. I teach secondary and would be worried if any of my students took a month or more to go on holiday. A week or so, once a year, see above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maidensarah Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I don't think children should miss school as they could miss something important I won't be taking my children out of school unless really necessary. Just have to save harder for holidays! My son's currently at pre-school and I don't mind him missing the odd morning as that's not quite as important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 My son has 100% attendance so no I don't agree. This year he's of to Canberra & Melbourne on his school trip and that is even in the school holidays. I don't believe in time off school unless they are sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jac2011 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I have and will take time off in school holidays as long as I feel it does not impact the children by missing important times. We drive to Holland and took the children camping doing lots of outdoor activities with them, bonding as a family and enjoying the innocence that is their youth. We were on a site where they were physically active from 8am till 11pm bonding with other children between the ages of 3 and 12, playing nicely and fairly and I believe this was an important learning experience for them in primary school. Their confidence improved, the returned home wanting to play outdoors, they got roller skates, bikes and go karts for Christmas and they went back to school happy to be back. The previous year, we went to Paris and Disneyland. As well as the fun of the theme park, they got taught French, they learnt about French culture, we explored French bakeries and walked round Paris. Something which I believe they will always remember. They may learn that in a text book but they wont have fond memories of a family holiday in France experiencing French culture. If I could afford school holidays during term time and I wasn't stuck to set dates in my nursing school then I wouldn't need to take them out in term time however, until this changes I will continue to do so. As for families that take their children away who have absences during the year for other reasons then I understand that this is unacceptable but surely that's why the previous method of heads discretion was the right thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest40285 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I take my girls out of school every year for a trip back to the UK, both thier schools encourage travel and seeing the world weather it be in school holidays or not, I fill in an exemption of absence form and we are all good, School is important yes but life lessons are just as important to me, they love seeing new things, I even take them out on occasions to work they get paid and have a day off school, lifes to short to worry about it, as long as they do thier best and are happy at school Im a happy Dad, no dramas, I never really went to school and left at 15. You can study at any age these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I agree with dmjg! I used to tear my hair at the impotence of the schools in enforcing attendance from the habitual waggers and the indolent parents who couldn't give a toss about whether their kids were in school or not. Whilst this may be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, I approve the concept. If a family can prove their commitment yo their child's education by as near perfect attendance as possible then they should apply for permission and the teacher could levy some expectation such as a diary, post cards, scrap book etc. but if they have a less than impeccable attendance then sorry, no go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boganbear Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 My school did allow Service families to have holidays in term time as they might not be able to have a holiday if a parent is overseas for long time. As my dad was in the Navy we often had holidays in term time. The school didn't like it and but as my dad once told them, I would be away for less time than the teaching staff were on strike or closed the school because it was 'cold'. That shut the headmaster up. Schools are paranoid because unauthorised absence is one of the league table measures and nothing else. At primary level, a couple weeks away is going to make very little difference to attainment overall. It didn't affect me getting my undergrad or post grad degree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramac Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I agree with dmjg! I used to tear my hair at the impotence of the schools in enforcing attendance from the habitual waggers and the indolent parents who couldn't give a toss about whether their kids were in school or not. Whilst this may be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, I approve the concept. If a family can prove their commitment yo their child's education by as near perfect attendance as possible then they should apply for permission and the teacher could levy some expectation such as a diary, post cards, scrap book etc. but if they have a less than impeccable attendance then sorry, no go. I completely agree. We had to apply for leave. The first time it was a case of, 'she's your child, why are you even asking?'. The second time (UK) we were told that, as it was quite a long time, it would have to be recorded as unauthorised absence, but go and have a great time. Interested parents can do loads with their children on holiday - museums, science centres, walks talking about what's around you etc etc. I agree with dmjg - primary school is about learning to read, write and do maths. My girls remember more about the places we've been and what we've seen than they do about learning about the Egyptians or Aztecs in year 2. However, it does depend on what their day to day attendance is like - our youngest has only had three days off in the past five years because she's been ill. No other time off at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKC Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I have taken both of my children out of school for holidays, and will continue to do so where necessary until they are of an age where they would be missing important exam preparation time. Our most recent holiday was three weeks in England, visiting our relatives. We had to take a week out of school at the end of the winter term in order to fit things around OH's work schedule. This was nothing to do with the cost of the holiday, and everything to do with when OH could get cover at work. On that particular holiday they visited castles, farms and museums. They learned about English kings, Roman numerals, bits of science (why does the water go down the plughole the other way and more), visited lighthouses, found mermaids purses on the beach, saw a blacksmith at work and many many other things. Not to mention they were able to see their grandparent, aunts, uncles, cousins etc, most of whom they had not seen in their living memory. We went with the blessing of the school, who just asked that we brought back a holiday diary of the things that they had seen and learned. Education doesn't start at 9am and finish at 3pm Monday to Friday. Life is an education, and sometimes life takes you to places outside the classroom. I am just as responsible for teaching my children as the teachers at school are. Maybe I am lucky in that I have two bright and self-motivated children, so when they have been off school they quickly catch up anyway, but surely any child benefits from seeing different parts of the world? I do understand that serial truantism (is that a word?!) is a problem, but I also think that there is a difference between someone constantly 'wagging' school/parents who don't care enough to send their children to school, and parents who care about their children's education but can also see the benefit in offering them other experiences either in holiday time or in school time when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 As I said in the other thread, there is a huge problem especially with British families in Perth taking their children out of school four,five or even six weeks at a time to visit the UK during the school term and then going for another two weeks to Bali the following term. I have no problem with one or two weeks as long as it it is not a continuous occurrence. The problem is the very same parents then expect the teachers to ensure their child catches up after six weeks away without taking any responsibility at all for it themselves. Children simply cannot afford to miss school continually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHeart Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I was worrying about this as we plan to return to the UK this Christmas and it will mean son missing last few weeks of term. I never normally take him out maybe a Friday and a Monday once or twice a year if we've had a long weekend somewhere. Its hard to actually get school hold granted as leave in some jobs as everyone wants them. I take the opinion that holidays are a learning opportunity too and tbh if your child has a poor attendance record you're not really going to be too concerned about getting permission from school are you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKC Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 As I said in the other thread, there is a huge problem especially with British families in Perth takign their children out of school four,five or even six weeks at a tiem to visit the UK and then go for another two weeks to Bali the followign term. I have no problem with one or two weeks as long as it it is not a continuous occurrence. The problem is the parents that then expect the teachers to ensure their child catches up after six weeks away without taking any resoponsinbility for it themselves. Chilsren simply cannot afford to miss school continually.. This is what I don't understand about some types of people. If I take my children out of school, then I ensure that my children are kept up to date with what they have missed, or I make sure that they have done the work that has been set by the teacher for the holiday. Just the same as I believe that education doesn't start at 9 and end at 3pm. I make sure that our girls have lots of learning opportunities outside of school too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Ive always claimed that parents have much more influence on their final grades than teachers ever will. Your final comments just clarify that... I forgot to add a caveat on age. The job of primary school is to give kids a good foundation in English and maths. As long as these don't fall behind in primary school (ie write a diary and practise your times tables), let the kids take a month or so. I teach secondary and would be worried if any of my students took a month or more to go on holiday. A week or so, once a year, see above. I agreed with your other posts, but have to disagree with you here. The children that miss out in primary school and who struggle, then get lost in the system in secondary schools. Good attendance is absolutely crucial for primary school. A primary school child taking a month off is not acceptable unless an educational plan is being followed. There are so many children in primary schools who are already falling behind and it seriously does them no good at all to continually miss school. They already have the long Christmas holidays and that is more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest30085 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I took Mini Me out of school only twice for holidays, both to Australia. Once for two/three weeks leading up to the summer break and when she'd just started high school. Not ideal, but it was nothing to do with the inflation of prices due to the school holidays, it was because at those points in my life I needed to get away, so Mum was happier away from the daily grind (one year was an extremely stressful job where I was working away a lot). Any of my other holidays we took to Europe etc were within school holidays. I've never booked a holiday with more than a month or two notice. Why pay a premium? I've had holidays for a couple of hundred per person inc flights and accom to Europe. Been to Egypt on a 5 star cruise and sailed from Luxor to Aswan and back for £350 pp. if you're willing to do a search, and are willing to book last minute, you can usually get a bargain. Having said that, I'm not against taking kids out of school in term time if attendance is generally good. Taking your children to different places where they can learn other cultures etc can't be a bad thing, and other than Australia we've never been to the same place twice. But if parents are taking kids out for the same two weeks every year to return to the same place, then I'd struggle to see the benefits, each to their own though, just not for me x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 We have never done it but I am not evangelical about it. It is not even a consideration for us as we both work full time and it is tough covering the school holidays between us with under 5 weeks work holidays each. No family to help and we rely on kids clubs to plug the gaps. Taking her out in term time would only add to our problems. In the UK and Europe the cost of holidays during school holidays is a scandal. Prices often double or rise by 50% at least. This does not appear to be such an issue in Oz from what I have seen. Rip-off Britain perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakeboard1980 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Was never a problem in my day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouDYorkie Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I don't have children so feel free to tell me to mind my own business.....but, when I was at school I went on a week long school trip to Germany. When we got home and I resumed normal lessons (I was a top grade student), I discovered I had missed a really important week in terms of French grammar! Despite trying to catch up, I never felt I fully understood it-certainly not as well as my classmates who hadn't gone on the trip. I think what I'm trying to say is-it seems a little odd that children can't take a family holiday (which in many cases can be educational in their own way) but a child could sign up for the schools Switzerland Ski trip, Foreign exchange fortnight, museum day trips and miss a lot of important lessons that way!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 We've found schools to be pretty accommodating if you go and explain why you want to take your kids out at a particular time. I can understand why they might be a bit miffed if someone just decides to take the kids out, go on holiday, not let anyone know and then just roll back to school as if nothing has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Took our daughter to Australia for a month when she was 9 with her head masters blessing, this was in 1990. His attitude was what she will miss from school will be more than compensated by the life experience. My husband was working away from home in Oz for several months at the time. Luckily didn't ruin her academic future, still went to university at age 18. It isn't ideal or to be encouraged obviously to constantly take children out of school, but for a one off especially when still at primary school age, it shouldn't be too detrimental to their future. We had years when my husband was in the RAF, and he had to be away for 2 weeks camp with students at Easter, and all 6 weeks of the summer holidays, and worked sat/sun taking students flying, and mon/tues off, while our 3 were school age, and apart from that one occasion of the Oz holiday, we accepted it. Not much choice really, so I either went on my own or not at all. Our middle son got married here in Oct. and my other son + family came for the wedding, taking the 5 year old out of school for 2 weeks. Did ask for permission as it was for something special, and I haven't heard whether he has had to pay or not, but again really don't think it will ruin his academic future, as it was a one off, and so special for all of us to be together in one country for the first time. ps. Had forgotten till I wrote the above that we still had our daughter's diary from her visit, and she had such fun showing it to her nephew all those years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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