When education fails...

[HappyHeart]

The importance placed on education both here and in the UK leads to a lot of pressure on kids and parents....some kids just don't do well in school for a variety of reasons...some migrant kids struggle if coming here at critical stages in their education...

 

Is a good education the be all and end all? What implications does not finishing High school have in the long term...

 

What do parents do when the system fails them and fails to engage their children? Is it the parents fault? The child? Or the system....you can lead a horse to water...but....

 

All this talk of which system is best...My focus is on ensuring my kids survive their childhood and teen years and learn the skills needed for life...is it only school that can do this?

[starlight7]

Here it seems that early school leavers are at a big disadvantage. You can mark time if you want-it is actually quite hard to totally fail your VCE but you need to stay at school until you are 17 and prove it. What you do after that depends what you want to do in life. There are many courses where you don't need very high scores in your leaving exam- just the fact that you have done it. I think the emphasis is very different here from the UK and the courses and subjects are different ,too. Broadly the stuff here is much broader, much shallower and much more wide ranging. In-depth study doesn't occur until university level( and in some cases not even then). A different approach.

[dmjg]

We had a welfare speaker a few months ago give a presentation.

 

She follows a variety of students well after normal education age to see where they end up.

 

She claimed that a student leaving school in year 10 will generally (generally) end up in a lower salaried, non professional role. They generally engage more welfare services, more health care needs, more social housing and scarily, lower life expectancy. Than a student leaving education after VCE or uni.

 

I'll ask an assistant principal tomorrow and see if I can get a link to her study.

[Que Sera Sera]

I genuinely wish that kids could be educated up to say 14, then be made to work in a ( more undesirable job ) for 4 years , then at 18 be given the choice, back to school to continue studies for a better job or stay where you are with your lower paid job! I reckon that would work! But seriously trying to keep a non academic in education when they just have no interest is the hardest job ever to any parent I reckon, you feel a failure for not giving them the best start and all the opportunities you'd wished you'd had. I've gone through this twice already with my eldest. Not an enviable position at all.

[HappyHeart]

What about when an academic disengages with school..I'd be interested to see the correlation between low achievers versus higher achievers leaving at year 10

[HappyHeart]

and what are yours doing now Cath..are they happy?

[Guest The Ropey HOFF]

To have any real chance of a good career here in the UK youngsters have to stay in education until they are in their early twenties. A very small minority might make a go of it, but to stay in the game to compete with others, they need GCSEs A Levels and a University degree. My lad will be 22 when he leaves Uni, if we stay here in the UK, he will be saddled with £30 to £40,000 of debt, which is terrifying him he says, but I have explained he will have to earn over £21,000 before he pays anything back and getting a job with that sort of money even with a good Uni degree won't be easy.

[starlight7]

When I used to do gallup polls at w/ends i noticed that the very, very successful tend to start in business very early at a time when their peers are still studying. There is always hope there for the non-academic, particularly in Australia. A lot is down to personality and strong motivation for success.

[flag of convenience]

I certainly do not see Australian education has particularly stressful or indeed particularly challenging. Knowing the system somewhat in Germany and France it is rather relaxing. We know kids that have come out from Germany who can't believe how lax it all is.

I can only imagine how those from South Korea and related high stress education countries would find it.

 

I am far from convinced an academic education has the value in Australia as it does in Europe or Asia or USA. My impression is better to leave school and get a trade in this country. All too many who seek academic careers need to leave the country to be appreciated.

[Rupert]

I don't think it is a schools job to teach "skills for life" I think that is a parents job. I think schools are there to teach "technical" skills, to educate our next generation of scientists or historians. Not every child will have the attitude or aptitude to learn such things, I don't think there is any point in keeping non academic in school after 16 or 17, learning skills of a trade can be more appropriate for some after that age.

[HappyHeart]

..but don't schools have some responsibility for the psychosocial teaching too? We send our kids to school for a huge amount of time from early years to adulthood..I don't think it's good enough to put ALL the responsibility onto parents for their emotional and social teachings..obviously we are the biggest influence but school shouldnt just be about results..unfortunately it is and thats why some kids slip through the net despite parents best efforts..IMO...lack of support and intervention for kids who are struggling. For whatever reason.

[calNgary]

My son is in Year 10 and will be lucky to pass any of his subjects,including English (he may scrape through maths).. He currently has one day a week off school to do an apprentiship and also has a part time job working 2 or 3 evenings a week.

 

His Dad was not academic and had a similar pathway to my son,, His dad's skills and income allowed us a Skilled Visa to this country, allowed us to own homes in both the UK and Spain prior to moving here and now here in Aus, not forgetting his income allowed me to semi retire at 36yrs old...

SO- Do i think an A grade child is the be all and end all- NO... as said in the OP ,you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.. Having a stack load of GCSE'S, college degrees etc isnt a necessity IMO, a successful and happy life can be led by the ones who didnt do great at school too.

 

Cal x

[BritChickx]

All I can say is I wish I'd done better at school and college. If I wanted to go to uni now i'd have to go back to get more A Levels. I wasn't in a very good school only went there because my friends were going - the choices you make at 11! And it was the closest to my house so it would have been the first school i was let in anyway. But it was bad. I didn't do badly but didn't do great either just got very average grades.

[HappyHeart]

I guess my question should have been are they doomed to a life of struggle if they throw their chances away and don't finish school....how many come back to education..can they turn it around.

[Sammy1]

..but don't schools have some responsibility for the psychosocial teaching too? We send our kids to school for a huge amount of time from early years to adulthood..I don't think it's good enough to put ALL the responsibility onto parents for their emotional and social teachings..obviously we are the biggest influence but school shouldnt just be about results..unfortunately it is and thats why some kids slip through the net despite parents best efforts..IMO...lack of support and intervention for kids who are struggling. For whatever reason.

 

 

There is the problem. Too many parents believe that it is entirely a school's responsibility to teach children manners and social responsibility. The strongest influence comes from home.

 

Schools already feed many children breakfast in the morning and fulfill so many other needs that are lacking within the home environment. It would be ludicrous to suggest that schools are just about results, in this day age they are so much more.

[HappyHeart]

Hi Sammy, I don't believe that many think its the schools responsibility...I said they should take 'some' and that parents ARE the biggest influence. IME many schools are VERY results focused

[Sammy1]

Hi Sammy, I don't believe that many think its the schools responsibility...I said they should take 'some' and that parents ARE the biggest influence. IME many schools are VERY results focused

 

Unfortunately many schools are overly results focused because of government pressure, however, it would be remiss not to acknowledge that schools look after students welfare (social and emotional) more than ever before.There has been a social shift and parents are more apt to blame the school system now, rather than look at their own home environment and influences.

[Hailie]

:chatterbox:Character education is a term that is used loosely to describe the teaching of children in a way that helps them develop variously as moral, civic, good, polite, behaved, without intimidation, healthy, critical, success, traditional , compatible and / or socially acceptable beings :arghh:

[mamba]

To have any real chance of a good career here in the UK youngsters have to stay in education until they are in their early twenties. A very small minority might make a go of it, but to stay in the game to compete with others, they need GCSEs A Levels and a University degree. My lad will be 22 when he leaves Uni, if we stay here in the UK, he will be saddled with £30 to £40,000 of debt, which is terrifying him he says, but I have explained he will have to earn over £21,000 before he pays anything back and getting a job with that sort of money even with a good Uni degree won't be easy.

 

Why do you need to explain to him that he will not start to pay back his debt until he begins to earn 21,000 if he is considered capable of obtaining a degree?

mamba

[ali]

My children are very different - my daughter likes academia, she likes learning and for her, her pathway was always to go to Uni, she'd like to go into teaching. My son has thrived at High school, the variety and different teachers have captured his interests and he's far more stimulated and he's getting some great results ... but his option choices for year 9 (to see if he likes them) include photography and mechanics (the school has a workshop) ... I can really see him doing something like this - my hope for my two is that they each achieve whatever goals they have - there's a place for each of them.

 

I know a friends lad just couldn't do school - he left in year 10 got a job and is doing great - they're not dumb kids because they chose a different path, he's contributing, he's happy and his parents have a great kid whose achieving something.

[northernbird]

I've somehow missed this thread altogether.

 

HH, you and I have had a few conversations regarding this and to be honest with my daughter (and I suspect yours) we have to take us as parents and the schools completely out of the equation. We have done the best we can, the schools did the best they could but sadly some teenagers are so easily led by their peers that both of those things don't matter at all. We just have to pray that at some stage they realise their actions will not get them anywhere in life and pull their fingers out of their backsides.

[Phoenix16]

I've somehow missed this thread altogether.

 

HH, you and I have had a few conversations regarding this and to be honest with my daughter (and I suspect yours) we have to take us as parents and the schools completely out of the equation. We have done the best we can, the schools did the best they could but sadly some teenagers are so easily led by their peers that both of those things don't matter at all. We just have to pray that at some stage they realise their actions will not get them anywhere in life and pull their fingers out of their backsides.

 

Your words strike a big chord with me! As a teen in the 80's I had the brains but not the inclination! I woke up and did smell the roses and luckily forged a successful career starting at the very bottom and ending up running the whole show! I was good at what i did and all without a degree, however, as a 40 year old landing in Perth with 20+ years experience and amazing references, the lack of a degree was the elephant in the room! OZ is obsessed with degrees and MBA's and in this decade it's obviously good to have but the best leaders I have ever met and been inspired by are just instinctive and it's within them, it's not something they wrote a thesis on. my manager insists on having the words MBA quoted after her name, she is fanatical about her office, parking space and job title, she has a shelf of books about 'how to be a great leader' in her office whilst staff attrition rates are through the roof, she sticks a sign on her door daily with Velcro saying 'I'm far too busy...' And she regards herself as a top leader, but she can do this, she has an MBA!! I will say she works in a small not for profit in the suburbs, I'm pretty clear she wouldn't stand a chance in the city so she's a big fish in a small pond and power hungry!, It's hilarious to witness but also the reality of it, as obviously this is the suburbs, that the city would be even tougher and more ruthless.

[Phoenix16]

but to add to my post as I got waylaid about my boss!! There are many intelligent people out there who just didn't fit into the 'one size fits all' educational mold, they still have brains and drive and many are very successful entrepreneurs and business owners, good luck to them all, don't be surprised what your kids can achieve!!

[HappyHeart]

NB, that is just so true. I think we look to 'blame' someone in society. It's barely acceptable these days to just conclude your kid is misguided..there usually 'has' to be a reason..I'll go with your theory though because it makes perfect sense to me!

 

I guess my original question was not really about kids who dont follow the traditional path of uni etc it was more about thise who drop out of conformity to a degree and seriously undervalue themselves. Kids with great potential who are going nowhere fast. I suppose I was one such kid...I did finish high school but dropped out of 6 th form and bummed around doing courses and dead end jobs till I was 23. I just want better for my daughter.

[northernbird]

NB, that is just so true. I think we look to 'blame' someone in society. It's barely acceptable these days to just conclude your kid is misguided..there usually 'has' to be a reason..I'll go with your theory though because it makes perfect sense to me!

 

I guess my original question was not really about kids who dont follow the traditional path of uni etc it was more about thise who drop out of conformity to a degree and seriously undervalue themselves. Kids with great potential who are going nowhere fast. I suppose I was one such kid...I did finish high school but dropped out of 6 th form and bummed around doing courses and dead end jobs till I was 23. I just want better for my daughter.

 

I can't tell you the number of "friends" I have lost due to their judgement of my daughter's behaviour and my reaction to it. I think nowadays there are far more opportunities for kids who fall foul of peer pressure and drop out of education. My daughter is in school at the moment and wants to graduate year 12, she wants to be a youth worker and knows that she won't be going to Uni straight from school due to her actions in the last 12 months. She will have to follow a different pathway but they are available. It will all come out in't wash as my Granny used to say.

 

We just have to be there for our kids, let them know they are loved and wanted and that there are plenty of options available to them when they are ready to take them.