Is Dan Andrews doing the right thing?

[Toots]

9 hours ago, rtritudr said:

Many people don't appreciate how tough the Swedes are at social distancing.  Public gatherings over 50 have been banned since March and they have no plans at all on relaxing that.  Auckland NZ for example will allow public gatherings up to 100 as of this Thursday while the rest of New Zealand will have no limit at all.  NSW on the other hand still has a limit of 20 for public gatherings.

If you are a wedding planner in Sweden, you might as well pack up and go because chances are you won't be back in business any time soon.

Outdoor gatherings of up to 1000 people will be permitted from this Friday in Tasmania.  Also the Tasmanian Government announced that eligible agricultural (seasonal) workers from non-affected regions will be permitted to enter Tasmania to assist with the upcoming planting, production and harvest seasons.  The workers started arriving this week.

[Skani]

10 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

And apparently it seems to have worked..... should we have gone that way too?   

It depends what you mean by "worked".  Had we had the same per capita death rate as Sweden we would now have   15,000+  deaths instead of the current 854.  Not to mention the added health burden of complications from "recovered" survivors.  Even if the bean counters ignore the human cost there will be an economic cost of that.   Winter will be the most challenging period for northern hemisphere countries.  It would be prudent to reserve judgement on which approach has been the best until they have survived that.

[Paul1Perth]

On 21/09/2020 at 17:43, Marisawright said:

I think the critics are saying it wasn’t worth it and we would’ve been better off to let the economy keep running even though that would’ve meant more cases and deaths

And you end up like Europe with lockdown after lockdown, businesses don't know whether they're going to be open from one week to the next, people scared to go out, having to wear masks, can't see older people. It's a half life.

[rtritudr]

Sweden considers restrictions as COVID-19 cases rise

Looks like reopening schools in August and the arriving of autumn may have thrown a spanner into the works.

[Bobj]

just read an article by a farmer who lives in Victoria, but his farm is 23 km across the border in NSW. He has 1500 sheep on the property and bought 43 tonnes of hay to feed them. He rang the Victorian Govt. and, because of the covid lockdown  laws, explained his position to the relevant authorities and their only response was for him to go to Melbourne, and get a flight to Sydney, spend 14 days in quarantine there, then drive to his farm and feed his sheep. His question to the er... um... person in Govt, was, had that person any idea how much it would cost to fly 43 tonnes of hay from Melbourne to Sydney? And, how long could 1500 sheep go without feed?

Beaurocracy gone bonkers???

Cheers, Bobj.

[rtritudr]

11 minutes ago, Bobj said:

just read an article by a farmer who lives in Victoria, but his farm is 23 km across the border in NSW. He has 1500 sheep on the property and bought 43 tonnes of hay to feed them. He rang the Victorian Govt. and, because of the covid lockdown  laws, explained his position to the relevant authorities and their only response was for him to go to Melbourne, and get a flight to Sydney, spend 14 days in quarantine there, then drive to his farm and feed his sheep. His question to the er... um... person in Govt, was, had that person any idea how much it would cost to fly 43 tonnes of hay from Melbourne to Sydney? And, how long could 1500 sheep go without feed?

What's that got to do with the Victorian government? It's NSW that decided to close the state borders, not Victoria.  Complain to Gladys instead.

[AussieMum]

 

26 minutes ago, Bobj said:

just read an article by a farmer who lives in Victoria, but his farm is 23 km across the border in NSW. He has 1500 sheep on the property and bought 43 tonnes of hay to feed them. He rang the Victorian Govt. and, because of the covid lockdown  laws, explained his position to the relevant authorities and their only response was for him to go to Melbourne, and get a flight to Sydney, spend 14 days in quarantine there, then drive to his farm and feed his sheep. His question to the er... um... person in Govt, was, had that person any idea how much it would cost to fly 43 tonnes of hay from Melbourne to Sydney? And, how long could 1500 sheep go without feed?

Beaurocracy gone bonkers???

Cheers, Bobj.

That happened over a month ago and was due to border restrictions imposed by NSW.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2020-08-20/farmers-told-to-fly-livestock-to-avoid-covid-19-restrictions/12574610

Edited September 24, 2020 by AussieMum
Inserted link properly

[Bobj]

42 minutes ago, rtritudr said:

What's that got to do with the Victorian government? It's NSW that decided to close the state borders, not Victoria.  Complain to Gladys instead.

As I wrote, I just read an article...

my profound apologies for reading and writing...

Cheers, Bobj. 

[Bobj]

32 minutes ago, AussieMum said:

 

That happened over a month ago and was due to border restrictions imposed by NSW.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2020-08-20/farmers-told-to-fly-livestock-to-avoid-covid-19-restrictions/12574610

Same apology to you, too.

Cheers, Bobj.

[Dusty Plains]

4 hours ago, rtritudr said:

What's that got to do with the Victorian government? It's NSW that decided to close the state borders, not Victoria.  Complain to Gladys instead.

Close, but no cigar I'm afraid

 On 6 July 2020 Gladys, Dan and Scomo held a video conference  (Z00m?) relative to the merits or otherwise in closing the NSW/Vic Border.  According to the Business Insider Australia website:

Andrews said he, NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian, and Prime Minister Scott Morrison “agreed that the best thing to do is to close the border.”

Link:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/nsw-victoria-border-2020-7

Edited September 24, 2020 by Dusty Plains

[Dusty Plains]

4 hours ago, AussieMum said:

 

That happened over a month ago and was due to border restrictions imposed by NSW.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2020-08-20/farmers-told-to-fly-livestock-to-avoid-covid-19-restrictions/12574610

I don't think Bobi needs to apologise for merely stating what he read. Who cares if it is a month old, its still topical.  Dan Gladys and Scomo jointly agreed to close the NSW / Victoria border in July 2020. That event is older a than month but its still being talked about here on PIO.

[AussieMum]

2 minutes ago, Dusty Plains said:

I don't think Bobi needs to apologise for merely stating what he read. Who cares if it is a month old, its still topical.  Dan Gladys and Scomo jointly agreed to close the NSW / Victoria border in July 2020. That event is older a than month but its still being talked about here on PIO.

I don't see anybody asking for an apology from Bobj.  I was just clarifying that it wasn't something that happened in the last few days which is what can be inferred from "just read an article". 

Dan might have agreed to NSW closing their border but he didn't instigate it and asking for his input was likely just a courtesy - if he had disagreed, do you think it would have had any impact on a decision being made by the NSW Government in NSW?

The NSW entry permits are administered by NSW so while the decisions on eligibility and access affect some Victorians, it's incorrect to blame permit refusals, advice to fly livestock, etc, on anything other than the short-sighted/city-centric NSW permit criteria and/or poor training/ignorance of Service NSW staff.

[Dusty Plains]

4 minutes ago, AussieMum said:

I don't see anybody asking for an apology from Bobj.  I was just clarifying that it wasn't something that happened in the last few days which is what can be inferred from "just read an article". 

Dan might have agreed to NSW closing their border but he didn't instigate it and asking for his input was likely just a courtesy - if he had disagreed, do you think it would have had any impact on a decision being made by the NSW Government in NSW?

The NSW entry permits are administered by NSW so while the decisions on eligibility and access affect some Victorians, it's incorrect to blame permit refusals, advice to fly livestock, etc, on anything other than the short-sighted/city-centric NSW permit criteria and/or poor training/ignorance of Service NSW staff.

I don't agree with any of that.

The border closed because Dan stuffed up. Let's go from there.

[rtritudr]

2 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

Close, but no cigar I'm afraid

 On 6 July 2020 Gladys, Dan and Scomo held a video conference  (Z00m?) relative to the merits or otherwise in closing the NSW/Vic Border.  According to the Business Insider Australia website:

Andrews said he, NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian, and Prime Minister Scott Morrison “agreed that the best thing to do is to close the border.”

Link:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/nsw-victoria-border-2020-7

So you reckon Gladys and Morrison are somehow under Daniel Andrews' control?

[Dusty Plains]

31 minutes ago, rtritudr said:

So you reckon Gladys and Morrison are somehow under Daniel Andrews' control?

I doubt it.  I live in NSW.  I went out for very nice pub lunch yesterday. The bistro is superb at my local. I ran into some old friends and they joined us for lunch and then we moved into the bar area for more drinks and found some more friends there as well.  We had a spectacular afternoon. 

Thanks Dan for closing the border. 

[Skani]

4 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

The border closed because Dan stuffed up. Let's go from there.

You mean like our Tasmanian border closed on 19th March because Berejiklian and Morrison stuffed up?

[Alan Collett]

1 minute ago, Skani said:

You mean like our Tasmanian border closed on 19th March because Berejiklian and Morrison stuffed up?

Closing State borders - is that constitutional?   

Last time I looked I had an Australian passport, not a Vic passport.

But that's a different discussion!

Best regards.

[Dusty Plains]

43 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

Closing State borders - is that constitutional?   

Last time I looked I had an Australian passport, not a Vic passport.

But that's a different discussion!

Best regards.

I think its more the case of the argy bargy between Labor State Premiers on the one hand, and then the Liberal State Premiers and the Liberal Federal Government on the other. Had the Federal Government passed a law that precluded the actions of the states it would have been the case that the states were brought into line. This never happened, of course in relation to Covid- 19, possibly because the Feds (let's call them that) were too busy attempting ( with the exception of the Victorian Labor State) to manage Covid -19, but rather for the states to micro manage Covid19, to the extent that borders ( red lines on a map) assumed a practical measure for stemming the MIGRATION of Covid 19. (oops....long sentence).

Constitutionally, as you have suggested, is, in fact, a player in all of this,  The Australian Constitution provides that where there is an inconsistency between a law of a state and the law of the commonwealth, then the latter shall prevail, to the extent of the inconsistency.

This means that the Commonwealth  has sufficient constitutional powers to override states where an inconsistency exists. This also means that the Commonwealth can make laws that are inconsistent with a state, without any consultation to the states.  

Sorry  if this seemed to be a lecture, it wasn't intended as such. In the end. Yes I agree, You are correct.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Dusty Plains

[Dusty Plains]

32 minutes ago, Skani said:

You mean like our Tasmanian border closed on 19th March because Berejiklian and Morrison stuffed up?

Nice try, and thank you for it.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Dusty Plains

[Quinkla]

16 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

I don't agree with any of that.

The border closed because Dan stuffed up. Let's go from there.

The NSW Government closed the border to movement from Victoria because:

• Victoria had high levels of Covid in Wave 2
• Because an infectious family of four returned travellers decided they couldn't be annoyed with sticking to quarantine
• Because the security guards let them breach the rules
• Because the Victorian opposition was calling for restrictions to be scrapped and exemptions to be made
• Because the Victorian Government, like other state governments, used security guards
• Because they wanted to boost employment opportunities when people were losing their jobs
• Because Covid was spreading into Australia from overseas
• Because China did not contain its outbreak
• Because the outbreak started from eating exotic meat in Wuhan market

Take your pick from the above menu according to your prejudices - because they are all correct.

[Dusty Plains]

5 hours ago, Quinkla said:

The NSW Government closed the border to movement from Victoria because:

• Victoria had high levels of Covid in Wave 2
• Because an infectious family of four returned travellers decided they couldn't be annoyed with sticking to quarantine
• Because the security guards let them breach the rules
• Because the Victorian opposition was calling for restrictions to be scrapped and exemptions to be made
• Because the Victorian Government, like other state governments, used security guards
• Because they wanted to boost employment opportunities when people were losing their jobs
• Because Covid was spreading into Australia from overseas
• Because China did not contain its outbreak
• Because the outbreak started from eating exotic meat in Wuhan market

Take your pick from the above menu according to your prejudices - because they are all correct.

As already discussed, it was a joint decision encompassing VIC,NSW and the Australian government to close the border, and to deploy resources such as police from VIC, NSW and also the ADF as part of the agreement.  SA closed its borders to Victorians and other states months before the NSW/VIC border was closed.

Given all of these factors, including those you have listed, if they apply to all states then why is Victoria still the only state or territory under internal lockdown of its capital city?  Why was there a statewide internal lockdown in Victoria that is subsequently being lifted?  

There are about the same health services including physicians on a per capita basis in NSW and Victoria. Per capita, there are slightly more police for the purposes of enforcing social distancing in NSW than there are in Victoria, but its comparable.   There is considerably greater patronage of mass transit ( buses, trains, ferries, light rail etc) in NSW than there is in Victoria and so the exposure factor has been greater in NSW, in transport passengers. Overall there is not a lot of difference between the states.

As at 24 September 2020 there have been 4213 Covid-19 cases in NSW and 52 deaths. However in the comparable state of Victoria there have been 20,105 Covid -19 cases and 773 deaths.

It's go to be the factor of leadership, which in the case of Victoria, is particularly poor.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Dusty Plains

[rtritudr]

1 hour ago, Dusty Plains said:

As already discussed, it was a joint decision encompassing VIC,NSW and the Australian government to close the border, and to deploy resources such as police from VIC, NSW and also the ADF as part of the agreement.  SA closed its borders to Victorians and other states months before the NSW/VIC border was closed.

So are you saying that if Victoria doesn't consent then NSW cannot reopen the borders? What would happen if NSW decided to unilaterally reopen the borders? Is Victoria going to stop people from their side of the border entering NSW?

[Quinkla]

1 hour ago, Dusty Plains said:

As at 24 September 2020 there have been 4213 Covid-19 cases in NSW and 52 deaths. However in the comparable state of Victoria there have been 20,105 Covid -19 cases and 773 deaths.

It's go to be the factor of leadership, which in the case of Victoria, is particularly poor.

I know this won't fit with your preferred narrative, but basically it was bad luck. The infected family managed to spread the virus to a super-spreader who attended a religious celebration while infected that brought family members together from across Melbourne, and they in turn had extended social networks in their communities. It could have happened anywhere. 

Coupled to that, the second time we tried Stage 3 lockdown procedures, the spread continued. In part at least, that is because the State Opposition actively encouraged people to question the necessity of lockdown measures, so the rules were widely flouted. That's why we had to go to Stage 4 lockdown, and that is working. But every step of the way, the State Opposition seems to be trying to sabotage it - even to the extent of opposing a continuation of the State of Emergency under which the lockdown provisions are made. 

If you look at other states and territories - regardless of the colour of their governments - they have had similar approaches. The real difference in Victoria was just bad luck. 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Quinkla

[Alan Collett]

5 minutes ago, Quinkla said:

<snip>

If you look at other states and territories - regardless of the colour of their governments - they have had similar approaches. The real difference in Victoria was just bad luck. 

 

You are joking surely.

Have you seen the ineptitude of the Government on display at the enquiry this week?

Best regards.

[Peach]

17 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

You are joking surely.

Have you seen the ineptitude of the Government on display at the enquiry this week?

Best regards.

TBH when was the last time you saw a politician from any side front up to any enquiry and answer any questions open and transparently?