bunbury61 Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 On 24/12/2017 at 07:54, Home and Happy said: Well I guess its a case of ignorance is bliss. If you like it slow and staying stuck in the past, then yes I totally get it. You have two choices there, you either slow right down with it all or you don't. That said, its lovely for small children and retirees. I could come back and do retirement there, but even then I think I would miss the pubs the countryside, summer music festivals, and going to see bands play live in town even when I am in my 60s. I could not imagine having to spend my retirement going to Kings Park, Fremantle, Swan Valley, Margaret River and Busselton for the rest of my days. That would drive me bonkers. Still if you like it slow, and don't mind your own patio barbies and staying at home on the suburb most of the time with the odd trip to the 'burb shopping centre for a bit of atmosphere and excitement, then good, enjoy it. what you have to understand H&H ,is that lifestyle suits some people down to the ground ,and I can see why . families with young children especially ...perfect me personally I would love to do 6 months in each ( missing the winters ?) ...or even 4 and 8 either way . i struggle to do anywhere 24/7 365 ...but right now it has to be the u.k ...my mom bunbury was very good to me ,and I would love to spend each u.k winter there, and travel out from there , but I fear it will never happen . but the places you mention for a lifetime ....not for me either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home and Happy Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 On 30/12/2017 at 09:27, bunbury61 said: what you have to understand H&H ,is that lifestyle suits some people down to the ground ,and I can see why . families with young children especially ...perfect me personally I would love to do 6 months in each ( missing the winters ?) ...or even 4 and 8 either way . i struggle to do anywhere 24/7 365 ...but right now it has to be the u.k ...my mom bunbury was very good to me ,and I would love to spend each u.k winter there, and travel out from there , but I fear it will never happen . but the places you mention for a lifetime ....not for me either I think also the thought of being stuck out there for a lifetime kind of freaked us out. We had a fairly vibrant life in UK before we left, going to pubs, gigs, long weekends away and short holidays all the time. I suppose back then we thought Perth would be even more exciting, only to find it was a paradise for the old and for small children. For us the UK is a far more happening place, even though we don't have the mad social life we once had all those years ago, I love it back here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 19 hours ago, Home and Happy said: I suppose back then we thought Perth would be even more exciting, only to find it was a paradise for the old and for small children. For us the UK is a far more happening place, If you stop to think about that statement, you'll realise it doesn't make sense. Do you really mean that the whole of the UK is a more happening place? Every single town in the UK is not exactly the same, and neither is every single town and city in Australia. In both countries, a lot depends on where you live, and also on the kind of lifestyle you like to lead. My niece (who lives in London) came to Australia on a working holiday. She didn't do the backpacking thing, she was mainly working in Sydney. A few years later, she jumped at the chance to transfer to Perth with her job. She didn't like it at all, and found it staid and boring compared to Sydney. I've had the same impression when I've visited. At the same time, I know several people who weren't happy in Sydney, who moved over to Perth and think it's the most fabulous place ever. The UK is the same. There are towns full of retired folk in deckchairs, and other towns which are lively and happening. And different lifestyles suit different people. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 13 hours ago, Marisawright said: If you stop to think about that statement, you'll realise it doesn't make sense. Do you really mean that the whole of the UK is a more happening place? Every single town in the UK is not exactly the same, and neither is every single town and city in Australia. In both countries, a lot depends on where you live, and also on the kind of lifestyle you like to lead. My niece (who lives in London) came to Australia on a working holiday. She didn't do the backpacking thing, she was mainly working in Sydney. A few years later, she jumped at the chance to transfer to Perth with her job. She didn't like it at all, and found it staid and boring compared to Sydney. I've had the same impression when I've visited. At the same time, I know several people who weren't happy in Sydney, who moved over to Perth and think it's the most fabulous place ever. The UK is the same. There are towns full of retired folk in deckchairs, and other towns which are lively and happening. And different lifestyles suit different people. yes - you have to find the place that fits in either country - it wouldn't be a big city in either country for me ....but iam on the edge of brum ..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 20 hours ago, Marisawright said: If you stop to think about that statement, you'll realise it doesn't make sense. Do you really mean that the whole of the UK is a more happening place? Every single town in the UK is not exactly the same, and neither is every single town and city in Australia. In both countries, a lot depends on where you live, and also on the kind of lifestyle you like to lead. My niece (who lives in London) came to Australia on a working holiday. She didn't do the backpacking thing, she was mainly working in Sydney. A few years later, she jumped at the chance to transfer to Perth with her job. She didn't like it at all, and found it staid and boring compared to Sydney. I've had the same impression when I've visited. At the same time, I know several people who weren't happy in Sydney, who moved over to Perth and think it's the most fabulous place ever. The UK is the same. There are towns full of retired folk in deckchairs, and other towns which are lively and happening. And different lifestyles suit different people. I think that's the key Marisa - horses for courses, I love living in Perth, I'm not any of the things that H&H describes as being their typical Perthite. However, I do appreciate (and respect) that everyone finds places different - I absolutely adored Tassie but don't know if I could live there, I prefer Melbourne to Sydney, Cairns was nice for a holiday but I wouldn't live there - but I know the Pom Queen adored living there. Everyone is looking for something different 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, ali said: I think that's the key Marisa - horses for courses, I love living in Perth, I'm not any of the things that H&H describes as being their typical Perthite. However, I do appreciate (and respect) that everyone finds places different - I absolutely adored Tassie but don't know if I could live there, I prefer Melbourne to Sydney, Cairns was nice for a holiday but I wouldn't live there - but I know the Pom Queen adored living there. Everyone is looking for something different So true. It would be a boring old world if we were all the same. As you say Ali some places suit some people but not others. I couldn't live further north than Coffs Harbour but that's because I prefer cooler weather. I live in a place that would probably bore some folk rigid but I really enjoy life here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croft Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 On 15/12/2017 at 19:43, Toots said: No there isn't. Give it a couple of hundred years or so and maybe each state/region will acquire it's own accent. There are some truly ugly Australian accents though. I've found most metropolitan accents a lot softer and less grating, here in QLD at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 49 minutes ago, ali said: I think that's the key Marisa - horses for courses, I love living in Perth, I'm not any of the things that H&H describes as being their typical Perthite. However, I do appreciate (and respect) that everyone finds places different - I absolutely adored Tassie but don't know if I could live there, I prefer Melbourne to Sydney, Cairns was nice for a holiday but I wouldn't live there - but I know the Pom Queen adored living there. Everyone is looking for something different That's the thing I find frustrating. So many migrants seem to arrive in a city, hate it, and then assume the whole of Australia is exactly the same. Whereas they'd think you were mad if you claimed that every British city was exactly the same, so what are they thinking? Like I said, I was prepared to give another part of the UK a try, if my oh had been willing to move. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) It's a strange thing this definition of not belonging, I am so settled on the Sunshine Coast, I never want to leave. I definitely belong with all my expat friends here, as we are all outsiders in a way, so can identify with each other. I'm lucky to have great Australian friends, but in a way I don't "belong" because I don't share the same background, but that makes no difference to our friendship, I just don't know things that they grew up with, artists, tv programs, etc, minor things but I have no knowledge of them. So many things Australian are unknown to me. Having said that we embrace our differences and experiences of life. Yes I miss our son and grandchildren in UK, but the unexpected thing is that I have more family in Australia, as 2 of our children followed us here, and almost all my African family have moved here, and live within a few hours away, so because of that I do feel I belong because this is where I want to live. What my African relations have found is that although they miss Africa they had to make their lives here, and having had some of their children born here and now they have grandchildren they really have the sense of belonging, because this is where their family now lives. I genuinely don't miss UK, can't explain it, except that I have moved so much all my life, lived in 4 different countries before I came here 15 years ago but for some reason this country felt right for me and my husband. Edited January 5, 2018 by ramot 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home and Happy Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 On 04/01/2018 at 23:57, Marisawright said: That's the thing I find frustrating. So many migrants seem to arrive in a city, hate it, and then assume the whole of Australia is exactly the same. Well..work took me round quite a few places in Australia, true they weren't all the same, but they were all sort of similar. My own observations were that Sydney just looked like a very grotty, run down,more crammed, overcrowded, tired and outdated version of Perth . Adelaide was even more quieter that Perth. That's nothing negative, if you love a quiet slow life (and many young parents and older people do) , a bit of a home bird, don't go out much or venture much further than your local Coles or cafe's and you're not interested in travelling anywhere, you cant beat Adelaide or Perth and no doubt many other places out there, you are going to be just fine. We go away most weekends all over UK and we nip over to Europe on our leave days, the variety of life and freedom we enjoy here in UK is very important to us. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Home and Happy said: Well..work took me round quite a few places in Australia, true they weren't all the same, but they were all sort of similar. My own observations were that Sydney just looked like a very grotty, run down,more crammed, overcrowded, tired and outdated version of Perth . Adelaide was even more quieter that Perth. That's nothing negative, if you love a quiet slow life (and many young parents and older people do) , a bit of a home bird, don't go out much or venture much further than your local Coles or cafe's and you're not interested in travelling anywhere, you cant beat Adelaide or Perth and no doubt many other places out there, you are going to be just fine. We go away most weekends all over UK and we nip over to Europe on our leave days, the variety of life and freedom we enjoy here in UK is very important to us. You make a lot of generalisations about what people who like Perth must be like - your description what I've highlighted as to the type of person who will like Adelaide/Perth doesn't fit me. There are always going to be people anywhere that are like that surely. I'm glad that you're happy back in the UK and enjoying life and popping over to Europe on your leave days ... I'll be popping over to KL this weekend with my daughter. Please don't assume that others living in places you didn't like don't have a lifestyle similar to the one your enjoying now. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Home and Happy said: Well..work took me round quite a few places in Australia, true they weren't all the same, but they were all sort of similar. My own observations were that Sydney just looked like a very grotty, run down,more crammed, overcrowded, tired and outdated version of Perth . Adelaide was even more quieter that Perth. That's nothing negative, if you love a quiet slow life (and many young parents and older people do) , a bit of a home bird, don't go out much or venture much further than your local Coles or cafe's and you're not interested in travelling anywhere, you cant beat Adelaide or Perth and no doubt many other places out there, you are going to be just fine. We go away most weekends all over UK and we nip over to Europe on our leave days, the variety of life and freedom we enjoy here in UK is very important to us. You are right, I enjoy the greater variety of landscape and culture in Europe, too, compared to Australia. But that's for holidays, not day to day living. I've lived in Sydney and I now live in Melbourne and I found both those cities vibrant, full if interesting activities and cultural pursuits. On a business trip all you're likely to see is the CBD or a business park on the outskirts, you can't get much picture of what people do in their leisure time. Whereas during my year in England, I found my relatives and former friends' lives were very quiet. They watched TV or went to the pub in the evenings, and the only highlights in their lives were their holidays in Europe or going away for weekends. Here in Melbourne, I don't have time for weekends away and holidays, I'm much too booked up with dance classes, shows, coffee dates with friends, festivals, etc etc. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, Marisawright said: You are right, I enjoy the greater variety of landscape and culture in Europe, too, compared to Australia. But that's for holidays, not day to day living. I've lived in Sydney and I now live in Melbourne and I found both those cities vibrant, full if interesting activities and cultural pursuits. On a business trip all you're likely to see is the CBD or a business park on the outskirts, you can't get much picture of what people do in their leisure time. Whereas during my year in England, I found my relatives and former friends' lives were very quiet. They watched TV or went to the pub in the evenings, and the only highlights in their lives were their holidays in Europe or going away for weekends. Here in Melbourne, I don't have time for weekends away and holidays, I'm much too booked up with dance classes, shows, coffee dates with friends, festivals, etc etc. I found exactly the same. A lot of my friends in the UK live outside towns and cities and have the responsibility of livestock/ horses dogs etc so it's not that easy to just get away to Europe for a long weekend. Different for other folk I suppose. Don't know why Home and Happy feels he has to pop on here and keep banging on about his experiences in Perth, Adelaide and Sydney. Trying to feel superior I suppose or trying to make us happy souls feel we are missing out on some sort of really exciting existence that he seems to have in the UK. Good on him though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandgroper Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Home and Happy said: Well..work took me round quite a few places in Australia, true they weren't all the same, but they were all sort of similar. My own observations were that Sydney just looked like a very grotty, run down,more crammed, overcrowded, tired and outdated version of Perth . Adelaide was even more quieter that Perth. That's nothing negative, if you love a quiet slow life (and many young parents and older people do) , a bit of a home bird, don't go out much or venture much further than your local Coles or cafe's and you're not interested in travelling anywhere, you cant beat Adelaide or Perth and no doubt many other places out there, you are going to be just fine. We go away most weekends all over UK and we nip over to Europe on our leave days, the variety of life and freedom we enjoy here in UK is very important to us. You talk about being 'a bit of a home bird' but you are the one that's headed 'home' bit ironic really. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith and Linda Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Home and Happy said: Well..work took me round quite a few places in Australia, true they weren't all the same, but they were all sort of similar. My own observations were that Sydney just looked like a very grotty, run down,more crammed, overcrowded, tired and outdated version of Perth . Adelaide was even more quieter that Perth. That's nothing negative, if you love a quiet slow life (and many young parents and older people do) , a bit of a home bird, don't go out much or venture much further than your local Coles or cafe's and you're not interested in travelling anywhere, you cant beat Adelaide or Perth and no doubt many other places out there, you are going to be just fine. We go away most weekends all over UK and we nip over to Europe on our leave days, the variety of life and freedom we enjoy here in UK is very important to us. Visiting places for short work reasons give a vastly different view of things to when actually living there, sorry that you missed out on nipping over to many other places whilst in Aus, been here 19 years myself and still have plenty to see and do. My work took me to Adelaide for several months, we went back for a long weekend after that and still need more time there to do it (and surrounds) justice. Here in Brisbane many new cafe's opening too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainR Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 The pub culture in the major Australian cities does seem quite subdued compared to the UK. Certainly 'getting lashed' every Friday and Saturday at the Queen Vic night doesn't seem to be the norm in my limited experience. Boating, fishing, surfing, rugby, cricket, walking and outdoor activities seem to feature highly on the other hand. For us the lifestyle suits us, we like being outdoors walking, sailing etc Drinking on the balcony with friends and eating locally farmed food, kids outside playing and the sun shining. I go to work where people are positive and come home to a bright airy house. We can head to Sydney for a night out with theatre, musicals, entertainment when we feel like it so that option is always there. Vibrant Asian cities can be visited for $400 return if booked at the right time, and whilst it's not quite the Ryanair $10 fares to the Cote D'Azur, its still pretty reasonable. Australian isn't perfect, but for us, it sure beats dark winters in the UK in front of the TV, going to the pub on Friday/Saturday nights and going for a weeks package holiday twice a year which seems to be a life many people in the UK live. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssiri Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Yes it was WA correct. It was a rather "quiet" sort of place you could say. But yes I do accept there will be others who love the isolation of Australia and love to live life slowly / quietly. Nothing wrong with that if that is what brings you happiness. In fact you can live in the surrounding suburbs of Perth city centre and it can be just as quiet as many English villages are. Sadly it was that quietness which drove us out the place. I suppose on reflection we were probably looking for it to buzz like the UK but with better weather, but learned pretty quickly that it was NOTHING like the UK. if you can enjoy the isolation and the slow life, then you will score. Like I always say, it is paradise for small children and retirees.Try Sydney. It has a buzz. It’s slower than London, but hums along quite nicely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Bit of a cop out and insulting really to say if you like living in the past Perth is the place for you. You tried it didn't fit in so you left enjoy the UK hh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scousers1 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 15/12/2017 at 17:47, MelT said: Yes I do have to agree. We have lived in Australia for nearly 13 years.. 6 in Victoria and then 7 here in Qld (which is like a world to its own anyway). We are tired of being here for many reasons... No sense of belonging, racism (from Australians, more so Qld) to us.. the unrelenting heat.. skin cancer... Isolation (social), lack of professionalism in the work place.. Lack of support in schools...Cost of living.. culture... To name but a few. We will be retuning to the Uk by Sept 18 - have a planning trip booked for Jan 18 visiting schools etc.. It. has been a tough decision as my parents want to stay in Qld (love the heat) and have health issues. But, I just can't just merely exist anymore. I have discussed it with my parents until I am blue in the face, and just cannot do it anymore. We are so unhappy. I totally understand what you are saying. The social isolation is awful. Everyone we have ever met here have been fair weather friends they just come and go. You can never really feel like you belong if you canno establish yourself. 30 years ago when we came i just thought well you have to do everyhing to make it work and it did for a long time. But i find myself now in exactly the same place as i was 30 years ago its lonely and unsettling for many reasons but mostly lack of solid social security for want of a better word. For those who feel settled i wonder if it will all dissapearvas it did for us. I once had that many social things going on it was way too much for 20 years plus. Now just about nothing as everyone moves away. I have come to realise you cannot establish yourself here, even aussies i know go through the same. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Scousers1 said: I totally understand what you are saying. The social isolation is awful. Everyone we have ever met here have been fair weather friends they just come and go. You can never really feel like you belong if you canno establish yourself. 30 years ago when we came i just thought well you have to do everyhing to make it work and it did for a long time. But i find myself now in exactly the same place as i was 30 years ago its lonely and unsettling for many reasons but mostly lack of solid social security for want of a better word. For those who feel settled i wonder if it will all dissapearvas it did for us. I once had that many social things going on it was way too much for 20 years plus. Now just about nothing as everyone moves away. I have come to realise you cannot establish yourself here, even aussies i know go through the same. It will for a few people I suppose. We are all different though. I'm in the minority as I have never needed or craved a great social life (I could easily become a hermit) but oddly enough I have made very good friends over the years in Australia. Admittedly a few of my Sydney friends have moved on to other places as I have but we are in constant touch and they have stayed with us here and one of them wants to move to Tassie too. She and her husband are coming next month to check everything out. Are you any further forward with your dream of returning to the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imapla Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 15/12/2017 at 06:47, MelT said: Yes I do have to agree. We have lived in Australia for nearly 13 years.. 6 in Victoria and then 7 here in Qld (which is like a world to its own anyway). We are tired of being here for many reasons... No sense of belonging, racism (from Australians, more so Qld) to us.. the unrelenting heat.. skin cancer... Isolation (social), lack of professionalism in the work place.. Lack of support in schools...Cost of living.. culture... To name but a few. We will be retuning to the Uk by Sept 18 - have a planning trip booked for Jan 18 visiting schools etc.. It. has been a tough decision as my parents want to stay in Qld (love the heat) and have health issues. But, I just can't just merely exist anymore. I have discussed it with my parents until I am blue in the face, and just cannot do it anymore. We are so unhappy. Hi You have been out of UK for 13 years - you will find lots of changes here . A lot of the things you mention may not be an Aussie problem - they may be a 2018 problem eg lack of professionalism in workplace, lack of support in schools. I also think as a migrant you will never really belong in either country - especially if you leave family behind in one. You will always be hoping for the best aspects of both countries and when thinking about the unrelenting heat (which lets face it is very pleasant most of the time - there are just a few months when humidity is uncomfortable) have you thought about the unrelenting cold ! I put my winter coat away in June last year and it was back out again in october - ditto with the heating. Its not the rain that is an issue to me as it really isn't that bad but its the cold and having to wear so many layers of clothes - and being stuck inside for so many months with windows closed. And the dark nights and dark mornings ........ You may even have the added emotion of guilt if your parents are aging. Have you thought about doing a long term stint over there - say six months/1 year (over the winter) and the do a rain check at the end of that ? I wish we had done that instead of fully pinging and now soon to be ponging !! or going back to Victoria Good luck with your decision - it is so hard to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 12 hours ago, Scousers1 said: Everyone we have ever met here have been fair weather friends they just come and go. You can never really feel like you belong if you canno establish yourself. ...Now just about nothing as everyone moves away. I have come to realise you cannot establish yourself here, even aussies i know go through the same. Again, this is an experience many have BUT it's not an Australian thing. It happens in cities all over the world. My sister has had the same experience in places in the UK. I had the same experience in Sydney but at the same time, the friends I made in Victoria 30 years ago are still friends today. And I'm already feeling that the friends I'm making in Melbourne (and I'm thrilled how easy it is to make friends here) will be around for the long haul. But like Toots, I don't need a big circle anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 We landed liked and conquered grafted got on with it heads down stuck in happy as. The UK offered nothing more than a good job I have that now only less hours more money? Third house owned this one with a view and n9 real neighbors yeah really want the back in blighty crap. Kids happy and settled older kids all working one qualified and is now working within the nursing community. It's the respect you get here for showing you are having a go and not sponging the system moaning another trait a lot bring with them on the plane here what did you expect? A free ride.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 On 10/01/2018 at 10:00, Marisawright said: You are right, I enjoy the greater variety of landscape and culture in Europe, too, compared to Australia. But that's for holidays, not day to day living. I've lived in Sydney and I now live in Melbourne and I found both those cities vibrant, full if interesting activities and cultural pursuits. On a business trip all you're likely to see is the CBD or a business park on the outskirts, you can't get much picture of what people do in their leisure time. Whereas during my year in England, I found my relatives and former friends' lives were very quiet. They watched TV or went to the pub in the evenings, and the only highlights in their lives were their holidays in Europe or going away for weekends. Here in Melbourne, I don't have time for weekends away and holidays, I'm much too booked up with dance classes, shows, coffee dates with friends, festivals, etc etc. Isn’t it odd that so many of these returnees live such a madcap busy life away every weekend, jetsetting around Europe multiple times per year, amazing social life with many lifelong friends and relatives. One has to wonder why on earth they ever left such an amazing life behind in the first place........or maybe they didn’t. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 55 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said: Isn’t it odd that so many of these returnees live such a madcap busy life away every weekend, jetsetting around Europe multiple times per year, amazing social life with many lifelong friends and relatives. One has to wonder why on earth they ever left such an amazing life behind in the first place........or maybe they didn’t. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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