Should the UK cut ties with the EU?

[BacktoDemocracy]

There truly is nothing more to be said then, we will all retreat back into our tribes, perceive all the rest of the world as a threat and believe that superstition and disbelief are more important than seeking to understand the world and what affects others has consequences for us all, this must be the very antithesis of education in the truest sense, and is Isuppose why right wing govenments alway try to narrow education to simply instruction rather than educating to think.

The USA tried in both world wars to be isolationist and was bitten in the bum by it and left the rest of the world in carnage and finally found that the isolationism did not save it and in fact cost it and the world dear by extending both wars.

[speakeasy]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 

Whether the EU should remain or whether states would be better out is a very lengthy and complex debate. It means different things to different people. Some take a dim view. Some still have hope in it. It will only work with majority support of European people though surely?

[BacktoDemocracy]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 

Whether the EU should remain or whether states would be better out is a very lengthy and complex debate. It means different things to different people. Some take a dim view. Some still have hope in it. It will only work with majority support of European people though surely?

The majority of Europeans do support it, it is only in the UK where there is so much antagonism towards it, in the main due to a relentless campaign of disinformation by the UK's right wing dominated press.

Peoples most primeval tribal fears and allegiance are being exploited by forces whose only interest is gaining power for them and their acolytes, if you want to see how this is done look at German society and politics between 1925 and 1937.

[Gbye grey sky]

The majority of Europeans do support it, it is only in the UK where there is so much antagonism towards it, in the main due to a relentless campaign of disinformation by the UK's right wing dominated press.

Peoples most primeval tribal fears and allegiance are being exploited by forces whose only interest is gaining power for them and their acolytes, if you want to see how this is done look at German society and politics between 1925 and 1937.

 

Xenophobia is a potent weapon. Witness Trump's success currently.

[speakeasy]

The majority of Europeans do support it, it is only in the UK where there is so much antagonism towards it, in the main due to a relentless campaign of disinformation by the UK's right wing dominated press.

Peoples most primeval tribal fears and allegiance are being exploited by forces whose only interest is gaining power for them and their acolytes, if you want to see how this is done look at German society and politics between 1925 and 1937.

 

Oh please, no one's suggesting genocide. They simply want to be able to keep their head above water by reinstating their own decision making bases. And not be forced to be an assembly of feckless under guarded 2 bit citizens of barely recognizable nation states.

 

Does everything in Europe have to be about Hitler?

[Gbye grey sky]

It has to be said that the European Union is a pretty undemocratic body. Does anyone really understand the hierachy of decision-making there? Sure an MEP is elected every few years but does anyone know who he/she is let alone what they do for their massive pay checks an expense accounts.

 

Ordinary people have little influence politically in Westminster as the die is cast in most constituencies but does 'the changing of the guard' after European elections make any difference to policy at all? EU decision makers appear to be a law unto themselves which is the nub of the issue really.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Oh please, no one's suggesting genocide. They simply want to be able to keep their head above water by reinstating their own decision making bases. And not be forced to be an assembly of feckless under guarded 2 bit citizens of barely recognizable nation states.

 

Does everything in Europe have to be about Hitler?

I never mentioned Hitler, my allusion was to how political power was amassed by him and his party, the use of verbiage that appealed to a people who felt marginalised and impoverished and how he appealed to people's darker sides, how he denigrated his opponent's, the believe in racial superiority and the use of racial stereotyping and then the use of a rigged judicial system to rid himself of opponents.

None of it about the Holocaust, simply about how a little man exploited other peoples psychological weaknesses to achieve power and how he got a country to support him with the help of people who wanted Germany to recapture its past glories, listen to ,Trump, Farage, LePen, even Murdoch they all use similar language. Hitler and his murderous thugs didn't spring fully formed into being it took them 15 years to subvert a country with constant appeals to a grand past and to use a sense of loss to gain absolute power and that is why there are parallels to todays right wingers because they want to have complete power without anybody being able to block them , that is why the courts have to be weakened, look at what is happening in Hungary with the extreme right wing who have won power there they have effectively neutered the high court.

Edited February 16, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[bunbury61]

Is it time? Does anyone care? Have this UKIP party got a good voting point opposing membership?

Will there be another European war if everyone starts to leave?

 

Whether you are for in or out ...heres a few pointers.

 

The e.u is costing the u.k £24 million a day

 

The u.k buys £56 billion more from the e.u per year than it sells .

The u.k is the worlds fifth largest economy ...larger than Switzerland and Norway combined...2 of the countries on the periphery .

 

The e.u is on the verge of a humanitarian and economic crisis .

 

Does the u.k need the e.u ?

[Paul1Perth]

I think the Tory government will do its damndest to get the vote to stay in. Too many of themselves and their rich friends in the City going to be affected if the vote is for out. In reality, while the general public are concerned about the migration crisis and what that means if you stay in, I'll bet the biggest concern for the government is all to do with money and how the City will be affected when it's no longer the financial capitol of Europe. The immigrants well being is a side issue.

[Paul1Perth]

I know. The English in particular, having such an inflated view of themselves. Something not as immediate apparent in Mainland Europe. Others of course, don't necessary share that view, but I do get a sense Europeans proper do find English a bit of an oddity. In the nicest possible way of course.

What's a European proper flag? French, German, other? I'll bet each country in the EU at the moment wishes they'd never bothered.

[Ken]

I've always thought the problem for Westminster politicians is that if they truely believed that democracy is best served at the local level then they'd transfer most of their power to local councils. If on the other hand they truely believe in centralisation then they'd transfer most of their power to Brussels. Self-interest however means they've somehow come up with a formula that says all power should lie exactly where they are in Westminster!

[bunbury61]

I think the Tory government will do its damndest to get the vote to stay in. Too many of themselves and their rich friends in the City going to be affected if the vote is for out. In reality, while the general public are concerned about the migration crisis and what that means if you stay in, I'll bet the biggest concern for the government is all to do with money and how the City will be affected when it's no longer the financial capitol of Europe. The immigrants well being is a side issue.

 

Spot on Paul ...it gives me a giggle when I hear people with left leanings saying we must stay because of human rights etc ...its THE BIG BUSINESS CLUB that's driving the fear to stay in .

The e.u is not solving wars and poverty ...its creating it .

[flag of convenience]

What's a European proper flag? French, German, other? I'll bet each country in the EU at the moment wishes they'd never bothered.

 

Someone that calls themselves and considers themselves European for starters.

[Quinkla]

The e.u is not solving wars and poverty ...its creating it .

This is also not true.

 

EU members have been at peace with one another in a continent whose history has been marked by war, And in terms of poverty, the EU has supported members who were once genuinely poor (Greece, Spain, Portugal) to develop and more recently, former Eastern Bloc countries have seen their economies going gangbusters since joining the EU. On a world stage, EU forces were prominent in intervening in the Yugoslav conflicts and maintaining a peaceful settlement.

 

On the other hand, as individual states, some members of the EU have created war in Afghanistan, Iraq and supported armed uprisings in Libya and Syria. Without the EU to temper such bad decisions, would we see more of them?

[bunbury61]

This is also not true.

 

EU members have been at peace with one another in a continent whose history has been marked by war, And in terms of poverty, the EU has supported members who were once genuinely poor (Greece, Spain, Portugal) to develop and more recently, former Eastern Bloc countries have seen their economies going gangbusters since joining the EU. On a world stage, EU forces were prominent in intervening in the Yugoslav conflicts and maintaining a peaceful settlement.

 

On the other hand, as individual states, some members of the EU have created war in Afghanistan, Iraq and supported armed uprisings in Libya and Syria. Without the EU to temper such bad decisions, would we see more of them?

 

As I said some former eastern bloc countries are going " gangbusters " or whatever you call it ...and we are bloody paying for it .

I have seen it first hand ,being in Poland and Hungary in the last couple of years .

Its all one way traffic though isn't it ...not dealing with the refugees though are they ?

Putting up fences and the growing rise of the far right across Europe ...its going to end in tears .

[Quinkla]

As I said some former eastern bloc countries are going " gangbusters " or whatever you call it ...and we are bloody paying for it .

I have seen it first hand ,being in Poland and Hungary in the last couple of years .

Its all one way traffic though isn't it ...not dealing with the refugees though are they ?

Putting up fences and the growing rise of the far right across Europe ...its going to end in tears .

This is an interesting table showing acceptance of refugees as proportion of population (right hand chart). You will see that Bulgaria is right up with the countries taking on the lion's share. Britain is way down the llst.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

 

I agree that Poland and Hungary have not taken many refugees - but isn't it a bit hypocritical to criticise them for putting up walls and being right wing when that's exactly what you advocate for Britain?

 

As it goes, big business supports staying in the EU. The Prime Minister supports staying in the EU. All the main party leaders support staying in the EU. Economists support staying in the EU. Academics support staying in the EU. Lefties support staying in the EU. The financial markets support staying in the EU. All these great minds support staying in the EU - have you ever stopped to wonder how so many very intelligent people can be wrong whilst you believe you can see the truth so easily?

[flag of convenience]

On second thoughts, If it would cull somewhat the financial sector that now dominate London, pricing out others, I would be in favour of leaving.

[Thom]

It has to be said that the European Union is a pretty undemocratic body.

 

Out of 751 MEP's in the EU parliament the UK elects 73.

 

If you take into account that of those MEPs, 24 (the largest group,) are UKIP MEP's, who do not cooperate with the EU.

 

So in effect we have 49 out of 751 MEP's fighting for the UK.

 

That is "democracy"? I think not.

[Rallyman]

Out of 751 MEP's in the EU parliament the UK elects 73.

 

If you take into account that of those MEPs, 24 (the largest group,) are UKIP MEP's, who do not cooperate with the EU.

 

So in effect we have 49 out of 751 MEP's fighting for the UK.

 

That is "democracy"? I think not.

 

with the above figures in mind why do you think that ukip are successful in EU elections but not in a general ?

[BacktoDemocracy]

Out of 751 MEP's in the EU parliament the UK elects 73.

 

If you take into account that of those MEPs, 24 (the largest group,) are UKIP MEP's, who do not cooperate with the EU.

 

So in effect we have 49 out of 751 MEP's fighting for the UK.

 

That is "democracy"? I think not.

But of course the UKIP MEP's still collect their salary and claim every last expense that they can claim, a little bit hypocritical isn't it, if they disagree with it so much shouldn't they stay with their feet firmly planted on good St George's soil.

Just turning up to barrack seems to me to be totally anti democratic and tbh seems pathetically childish and also as I say to do that and pick up the money is quite unfathomable and makes them people without any ethics beyond just wanting an easy ride, how can people vote for them, these are people who only have the ability to hold two thoughts in their heads, derision and total disregard for anybody else, the ultimate narcissists.

Edited March 7, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy

[bunbury61]

This is an interesting table showing acceptance of refugees as proportion of population (right hand chart). You will see that Bulgaria is right up with the countries taking on the lion's share. Britain is way down the llst.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

 

I agree that Poland and Hungary have not taken many refugees - but isn't it a bit hypocritical to criticise them for putting up walls and being right wing when that's exactly what you advocate for Britain?

 

As it goes, big business supports staying in the EU. The Prime Minister supports staying in the EU. All the main party leaders support staying in the EU. Economists support staying in the EU. Academics support staying in the EU. Lefties support staying in the EU. The financial markets support staying in the EU. All these great minds support staying in the EU - have you ever stopped to wonder how so many very intelligent people can be wrong whilst you believe you can see the truth so easily?

 

 

 

Oh dear dear ...first you make the assumption Tha iam right wing because I want out of the e.u ...then you again assume that the great minds want in .....oh really Boris Johnson ,Michael gove ,iam duncan smith and now MERVYN KING the ex boss of the bank of England has stepped in over the weekend and said basically " the e.u and its currency are in the **** " ...period ..end of story .

Now have your opinion by all means ,but don't make sweeping assumptions ,and state them as fact to suit your opinion .

A very large section of the u.k population want out ,and the powers that be are trying to scare them into changing their minds .

It reminds me of the vote one of the e.u countries had about brexit ...which went in favour of "out "

The attitude of the e.u was ,well will keeping voting every now and again ,until we get an " in" vote

 

The e.u is a failed project ...keep the euro ,but put the borders back up .

The " one size ,fits all " will never work .

The e.u is actually creating nationalism within the member states .

 

Out for me

[bunbury61]

Cameron by nature is anti e.u and so is Jeremy corbyn .

There is no love for the e.u .

It is big business driving the decisions .

And do you think big business gives a **** about you are I ?

Do you think they care about whether we can get a school place for our kids ?

Or an appointment at the doctors ?

Or a hospital appointment ?

Or a him rental for a relative ?

Because of the massive population growth in this country ,because of the e.u

That's not right wing ,that's fact .

How many people did they say would come in from eastern europe ?

Well that figure has been shattered.

Iam working here in the u.k .....day in and day out ....and i see what's going on .

Iam not sat at my laptop in some part of Australia ,pontificating about life in the u.k ,when I don't even live there

Iam living it .....not some Midsomer murders Britain ...we talking inner city brum ,Coventry ,Wolverhampton .

The e.u ain't working for the average man and woman on the street

[bunbury61]

Cameron by nature is anti e.u and so is Jeremy corbyn .

There is no love for the e.u .

It is big business driving the decisions .

And do you think big business gives a **** about you are I ?

Do you think they care about whether we can get a school place for our kids ?

Or an appointment at the doctors ?

Or a hospital appointment ?

Or a him rental for a relative ?

Because of the massive population growth in this country ,because of the e.u

That's not right wing ,that's fact .

How many people did they say would come in from eastern europe ?

Well that figure has been shattered.

Iam working here in the u.k .....day in and day out ....and i see what's going on .

Iam not sat at my laptop in some part of Australia ,pontificating about life in the u.k ,when I don't even live there

Iam living it .....not some Midsomer murders Britain ...we talking inner city brum ,Coventry ,Wolverhampton .

The e.u ain't working for the average man and woman on the street

 

And theres you quinkla ,a bloke living in Melbourne ,telling me about the way things are in the u.k.....**** off .

If you were living here fair enough ,but you ate 12,000 miles away .

[bell123321]

This is an interesting table showing acceptance of refugees as proportion of population (right hand chart). You will see that Bulgaria is right up with the countries taking on the lion's share. Britain is way down the llst.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

 

I agree that Poland and Hungary have not taken many refugees - but isn't it a bit hypocritical to criticise them for putting up walls and being right wing when that's exactly what you advocate for Britain?

 

As it goes, big business supports staying in the EU. The Prime Minister supports staying in the EU. All the main party leaders support staying in the EU. Economists support staying in the EU. Academics support staying in the EU. Lefties support staying in the EU. The financial markets support staying in the EU. All these great minds support staying in the EU - have you ever stopped to wonder how so many very intelligent people can be wrong whilst you believe you can see the truth so easily?

 

About the refugee issue just to raise a point why aren't Kuwait, Saubi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates which are rich middle easy countries taken 0 Refugees in, its a much safer route for refugee to go, but instead Europe is suppose to house everyone? I think it should be shared out with other countries such as those mentioned that are a lot closer. Also from an article from the Independent dated back in December 2015 only actually half who claim to be refugees from Syria are actually genuine.

 

You mention that intelligent people can not be wrong for staying in the EU, so are you saying the following people are not intelligent? Half the conservative MP has said they want to exit, 80 commonwealth community representatives, ex boss of bank of England. etc etc etc.

 

Not everybody is going to agree hence why the vote. We have paid the EU £228 billion since joining, (Received 143 billion back) but that is still a lot to just give to be in the EU. We currently need permission to trade with other countries outside the EU.

 

Personally I will be voting out like a huge percentage of the public. Its your choice if to vote in or out if eligible to vote.

[bunbury61]

O

About the refugee issue just to raise a point why aren't Kuwait, Saubi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates which are rich middle easy countries taken 0 Refugees in, its a much safer route for refugee to go, but instead Europe is suppose to house everyone? I think it should be shared out with other countries such as those mentioned that are a lot closer. Also from an article from the Independent dated back in December 2015 only actually half who claim to be refugees from Syria are actually genuine.

 

You mention that intelligent people can not be wrong for staying in the EU, so are you saying the following people are not intelligent? Half the conservative MP has said they want to exit, 80 commonwealth community representatives, ex boss of bank of England. etc etc etc.

 

Not everybody is going to agree hence why the vote. We have paid the EU £228 billion since joining, (Received 143 billion back) but that is still a lot to just give to be in the EU. We currently need permission to trade with other countries outside the EU.

 

Personally I will be voting out like a huge percentage of the public. Its your choice if to vote in or out if eligible to vote.

 

Well said bell ...i have said it a few times on here .

The uk has 2% of gdp ,for foreign aid .

I don't k ow how much it is ,but it would be a fair whack .

House ,school and feed the refugees in safe zones in the middle east .

These poor refugees could end up being very poorly treated if the eu goes into decline ,or of there is a global conflict ,and I suspect that is coming .

They may ultimately be safer in certain areas of the middle east