Should the UK cut ties with the EU?

[Guest]

If the EU was great for big business it would have the whole-hearted support of Murdoch's papers and the Tory press generally and it most certainly doesn't. This is a misconception really and one that has been carefully manipulated by the right. The EU creates regulations (principally favouring citizens over Corporations and heavy handed government legislation) and nothing irritates Murdoch and his right wing capitalist friends like regulation.

 

But excessive regulation hinders Small Business more than Big Business, and as many small business owners often vote Tory that can partly explain the divide.

 

I think JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs shovelling money in the pro EU fund also speaks volumes from that side of things...

[northshorepom]

I can not see there being too many people about these days that were about and enjoying when Britain was an Imperial power!

I can see a lot of people who talk an awful lot about how things "used to be much better". And a shedload of argument from anti-EU people who talk about the 1950s/1960s in those terms.

 

and also a very blinkered view of folk if you think they only want less foreigners, I think they deserve more credit than you give them.

Really? Just look at the comments on this thread. Most of the strident "out of the EU" people are identifying precisely that......regardless of whether or not being in or out of the EU would make any difference. I can't see it makes much difference in the case of asylum seekers, it might if the UK had ever signed up to Schengen and removed border controls but it didn't.

 

 

When I see "leave the EU" arguments that primarily deal with economic, social or political realities and forecasting of what might happen in alternative leave/don't leave future, then I give them credit. The majority of "leave the EU" arguments don't do this, they make specious comparisons with the past, with other foreign countries whose experience is of minimal relevance, or they speak from gut feel/emotion

 

I can see a couple of anti-EU arguments on this thread that fall into this category. And about 12 of the less deserving one

[Keith and Linda]

I can see a lot of people who talk an awful lot about how things "used to be much better". And a shedload of argument from anti-EU people who talk about the 1950s/1960s in those terms.

 

 

Really? Just look at the comments on this thread. Most of the strident "out of the EU" people are identifying precisely that......regardless of whether or not being in or out of the EU would make any difference. I can't see it makes much difference in the case of asylum seekers, it might if the UK had ever signed up to Schengen and removed border controls but it didn't.

 

 

When I see "leave the EU" arguments that primarily deal with economic, social or political realities and forecasting of what might happen in alternative leave/don't leave future, then I give them credit. The majority of "leave the EU" arguments don't do this, they make specious comparisons with the past, with other foreign countries whose experience is of minimal relevance, or they speak from gut feel/emotion

 

I can see a couple of anti-EU arguments on this thread that fall into this category. And about 12 of the less deserving one

 

I am pretty sure that Britain in the 50's & 60's was not an Imperial power.

I am sure most people speak from gut experience and how they see things affecting them either generally or directly , no need to over analyze things, they experience and accept bent banana's!

[northshorepom]

Semantics. 50s, Imperial power, whatever. The point is people harking back to a rose tinted vision of the past, as well you know.

 

I'm not expecting people to be emotionless or write a dissertation before their opinion is valid. But it's not unreasonable to expect such a monumental decision to be based on something of substance, is it?

[bunbury61]

The EU is great for big business. It seems weird that Tory's want to leave and not Labour. Labour voters would gain the most from being outside the EU.

 

Sorry ,but I have to correct you lastonealive.

The in and out opinion crosses party lines .

We have just had labour mp Kate hoey ,who is very much "out ",and a tory mp who is very much "in".

William Hague ,and Jeremy corbyn are politically poles apart ,but are both eurosceptic .

I will be voting out ....not because of some rose tinted past memories of Britain ,but because .

 

1 - we are the worlds fifth largest economy

2- we export more to Europe,than we import ( they need us ,as much as we need them ).

3 - we need our indepence back to once again sit on the top table

4- this one size fits all set up.doesnt work ,lumping the likes of Greece and Germany together ,just doesn't work .

5- the meddling by Europe in everyone's affairs .

Its like buying your own house ,in a street and being told you have to paint your walls blue,and have white ceramic tiles on the floor ,because those are the rules ...

Madness ...and it ain't working

OUT FOR ME

[bunbury61]

Do Tory Eurosceptics never wonder why Tory leaders think it is so important to remain within the EU despite having used anti-European rhetoric to get elected? Thatcher wanted to remain in Europe - so too John Major, William Hague, IDS, Michael Hecht and now David Cameron. Every one of them thinks being in the EU is better than being out of it.

 

Labour leaders too. And Liberals. And the SNP. In fact, despite the posturing, you have across the board consensus from all political leaders for the past 30 years that being in the EU is a good thing.

 

But I suppose it is possible that you and your mate down the pub who heard about the rapes in Germany might know best...

The main people driving the " in" campaign are for BIG BUSINESS.

They couldn't give a monkeys about you and me .

And the "in" and "out" campaigns are not decided by party loyalty .

Cameron by nature is eurosceptic .

This deal he got yesterday has still to be voted on ,not by the British public,not by parliament ,but by the member states.

From the other 27 members ,we have to get 14 in favour of the proposal ...cant see it myself

[Keith and Linda]

Semantics. 50s, Imperial power, whatever. The point is people harking back to a rose tinted vision of the past, as well you know.

 

I'm not expecting people to be emotionless or write a dissertation before their opinion is valid. But it's not unreasonable to expect such a monumental decision to be based on something of substance, is it?

 

It was you whom bought up imperialism and claimed most Brits against the EU were harking back imperialists. I would also say living and experiencing life is not exactly looking through rose tinted glasses is it? Also having experienced something of life pre UE/common market then surely they something of substance to base their opinions more so than anyone born after circa 1970 whom we shall say do not know any better!

[flag of convenience]

I am pretty sure that Britain in the 50's & 60's was not an Imperial power.

I am sure most people speak from gut experience and how they see things affecting them either generally or directly , no need to over analyze things, they experience and accept bent banana's!

 

Well you'd be wrong holding an assumption as such. Britain was indeed an imperial power in the fifties though declining, which of course accelerated during the sixties. The withdrawal East of Suez was probably the final chapter in the late 60's.

 

It matters not what gut feeling or experience with regards to the actual realities on the ground, with most folk being easily influenced by tabloid media and the like, I'd say the very least a need to analyse why things are what they are and how they arrived at a certain point is critical point. All goes a little above the banana analogy.

[flag of convenience]

It was you whom bought up imperialism and claimed most Brits against the EU were harking back imperialists. I would also say living and experiencing life is not exactly looking through rose tinted glasses is it? Also having experienced something of life pre UE/common market then surely they something of substance to base their opinions more so than anyone born after circa 1970 whom we shall say do not know any better!

 

You refer to different times of course. The world was a different place. The EU or Common Market was far smaller and the emphasis was on Britain being in the centre of an increasingly dynamic Europe.

[Keith and Linda]

You refer to different times of course. The world was a different place. The EU or Common Market was far smaller and the emphasis was on Britain being in the centre of an increasingly dynamic Europe.

 

But was it better or worse than what we have today? only those that have lived it will truly know and what is wrong in wanting to bring back the better aspects of such times. Do we not learn by experience? sadly in some instances it appears we do not.

[Keith and Linda]

Well you'd be wrong holding an assumption as such. Britain was indeed an imperial power in the fifties though declining, which of course accelerated during the sixties. The withdrawal East of Suez was probably the final chapter in the late 60's.

 

It matters not what gut feeling or experience with regards to the actual realities on the ground, with most folk being easily influenced by tabloid media and the like, I'd say the very least a need to analyse why things are what they are and how they arrived at a certain point is critical point. All goes a little above the banana analogy.

 

Not a wrong assumption at all, Imperialism was well in decline therefor it was no longer a power, the only real power it had was in relinquishing the remnants of such.

 

Regarding your second paragraph, you are obviously talking from experience regarding what one reads/hears in the media! please give people more credit flag they know how a banana should look and also how to handle hot things out of the oven.........because they think about how it should be done.

[flag of convenience]

But was it better or worse than what we have today? only those that have lived it will truly know and what is wrong in wanting to bring back the better aspects of such times. Do we not learn by experience? sadly in some instances it appears we do not.

 

It was certainly not better post war years. Hence the massive immigration and desire to leave in the fifties and part of the sixties. Things of course did improve the final half dozen years prior to entry, at least in parts of the country.

Experience as in history is quickly forgotten, which is why things seem to come around over the course of time. I see Britain's place as being firmly inside Europe, at least for now, influencing policy where able from within. I agree Europe has not exactly covered itself in glory and expanded far too quickly.

But I don't necessary see an opting out as improving the lives of ordinary Brit's also.

[flag of convenience]

Not a wrong assumption at all, Imperialism was well in decline therefor it was no longer a power, the only real power it had was in relinquishing the remnants of such.

 

Regarding your second paragraph, you are obviously talking from experience regarding what one reads/hears in the media! please give people more credit flag they know how a banana should look and also how to handle hot things out of the oven.........because they think about how it should be done.

 

No you are the one that stated Britain was not an imperial power in the fifties and sixties, to which I stated it was a declining one but still a power to which it was. Most of British colonised Africa did not gain independence until well into the sixties. As such the fifties still saw enough of the globe pink to consider Britain having imperial status.

 

Why would anyone give credit to anyone that doesn't consider outcomes and relies on gut feelings? No an ability to think and consider why things are far out weighs a any gut instincts of the ill informed in my book.

[Keith and Linda]

No you are the one that stated Britain was not an imperial power in the fifties and sixties, to which I stated it was a declining one but still a power to which it was. Most of British colonised Africa did not gain independence until well into the sixties. As such the fifties still saw enough of the globe pink to consider Britain having imperial status.

 

Why would anyone give credit to anyone that doesn't consider outcomes and relies on gut feelings? No an ability to think and consider why things are far out weighs a any gut instincts of the ill informed in my book.

 

The operative word in this being "Power" no way in the 50's & 60's did the British public feel they or Britain were an Imperial power. How could they when it was decling!

And there you go again not giving folk any credit!

[flag of convenience]

The operative word in this being "Power" no way in the 50's & 60's did the British public feel they or Britain were an Imperial power. How could they when it was decling!

And there you go again not giving folk any credit!

 

I would argue many did indeed feel Britain was a power after being on the winning side after the war. Yes I am aware the 'Great' part of Britain was not considered so great anymore and living conditions were torrid for many.

Still Britain went to war over Suez in latter part of fifties and fought campaigns in its remaining colonies like Kenya, Malaya, Aden etc hence the feeling of big power status lingered with many.

 

Give people credit for what exactly? Being wrong? misinformed? ignorant?

[Keith and Linda]

I would argue many did indeed feel Britain was a power after being on the winning side after the war. Yes I am aware the 'Great' part of Britain was not considered so great anymore and living conditions were torrid for many.

Still Britain went to war over Suez in latter part of fifties and fought campaigns in its remaining colonies like Kenya, Malaya, Aden etc hence the feeling of big power status lingered with many.

 

Give people credit for what exactly? Being wrong? misinformed? ignorant?

 

A joint world power with other nations but not an imperial power.

Give people credit for forming an opinion! just because it may not be in agreement with your (possibly gained from manipulated figures) opinions does not mean they are wrong , misinformed or ignorant, but then I suppose no different to what they may think of yours.

[Lineman]

I will fly back to vote "get out"...if the UK pulls out it will probably collapse anyway. went back last year for a few weeks and the place is a wash with eastern Europeans..even the beggers on the streets of london are foriegn now...what a pity OUT OUT OUT

[Wooba]

Then it's surprising that the politicians you do vote for are not up in arms about it. Quite the contrary - it seems to be the elected politicians who are most in favour of Project Europe. Don't you ever wonder why that might be?

Well if politicians think it's the best thing for us, then it must be. They always make the best decisions don't they?

[flag of convenience]

A joint world power with other nations but not an imperial power.

Give people credit for forming an opinion! just because it may not be in agreement with your (possibly gained from manipulated figures) opinions does not mean they are wrong , misinformed or ignorant, but then I suppose no different to what they may think of yours.

 

Britain was an imperial power. It still had empire. No credit required for opinions. For good argument then I agree. None of which has been presented here, unfortunately. Not a question of thinking different by any means.

[JockinTas]

Well if politicians think it's the best thing for us, then it must be. They always make the best decisions don't they?

 

:wideeyed:

 

When I worked in Switzerland my boss and his wife were forever voting in one referendum or another.

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/switzerlands-direct-democracy-the-country-where-everybody-votes-on-everything/news-story/3014e7afe678135181d0aa888ed4757e

[bunbury61]

I will fly back to vote "get out"...if the UK pulls out it will probably collapse anyway. went back last year for a few weeks and the place is a wash with eastern Europeans..even the beggers on the streets of london are foriegn now...what a pity OUT OUT OUT

 

If the u.k does vote to stay IN ...when my mom passes away ...i will be leaving the u.k .....

[bunbury61]

 

If the u.k does vote to stay IN ...when my mom passes away ...i will be leaving the u.k .....

Why ? ....when the recent refugee crisis hit Europe ,the e.u went to turkey and asked them to firm up security .Turkeys response was that it would assist IF its application to join the e.u was looked on favourably .Imagine if turkey joins the e.u ?There borders are already porous ,often for good reason .

[vickyplum]

I will fly back to vote "get out"...if the UK pulls out it will probably collapse anyway. went back last year for a few weeks and the place is a wash with eastern Europeans..even the beggers on the streets of london are foriegn now...what a pity OUT OUT OUT

 

Submitting a postal vote would be kinder on your purse and available time. That's what I'll be doing, but not with the same sentiment as you.

[Parley]

I want UK to stay in the EU.

I'm not that close to the issues affecting the UK but UK is part of Europe so she should be in it.

Like David Cameron is doing he needs to influence the EU to make sure UK's interests are protected.

Better to be inside the tent and be able to influence things than be outside and ending up a small insignificant player in Europe and the world.

[Parley]

Can any British Citizen vote ?