Should the UK cut ties with the EU?

[Suzukiscottie]

Their cheese is nice too.

 

 

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[flag of convenience]

Women far more enticing as well.

[flag of convenience]

They hate us in or out.

 

Any perceived reasoning why that may be so?

[JockinTas]

Their cheese is nice too.

 

I wear the Tissot watch every day I bought there 40 years ago. Never loses time.

[newjez]

Any perceived reasoning why that may be so?

 

Because the UK is not really in Europe, it's never been in Europe, it's always thought itself better than Europe, whilst at the same time adopting European words for things to make them sound special, as in English just isn't a good enough language to describe things.

[Quokka2005]

Scotland got told that it would be a disaster leaving the EU or that we would never be allowed in again. And now we're most likely getting dragged out it anyway. Couldn't make it up haha

[bunbury61]

They hate us in or out.

 

I have never found that to be honest ....in days gone by ,we were admired ,and in some cases envied .

Not because of our **** weather or rubbish food or lifestyle .

Its because we punched way above our weight .

Gave the western world its dominant language .

Along with the allies ,saved the continent on numerous occasions .

Gave them Shakespeare ,the Beatles and the rolling stones,to name a few

 

I MEAN WHAT MORE DO THESE PEOPLE WANT ...

saving the world,giving them music ,inventing most of the dominant global sports.

On top of all that our t.v ,especially our comedy is second to none .

For a tiny little island ,that's pretty impressive

 

No wonder they have an issue with us

Its not hate ..its envy .

[bell123321]

Cut ties no leave EU yes! Being dictated by Brussels ordered to pay billions and do what they want from us... No thanks. We can still trade with Europe but being under their rules nah.

[newjez]

I have never found that to be honest ....in days gone by ,we were admired ,and in some cases envied .

Not because of our **** weather or rubbish food or lifestyle .

Its because we punched way above our weight .

Gave the western world its dominant language .

Along with the allies ,saved the continent on numerous occasions .

Gave them Shakespeare ,the Beatles and the rolling stones,to name a few

 

I MEAN WHAT MORE DO THESE PEOPLE WANT ...

saving the world,giving them music ,inventing most of the dominant global sports.

On top of all that our t.v ,especially our comedy is second to none .

For a tiny little island ,that's pretty impressive

 

No wonder they have an issue with us

Its not hate ..its envy .

 

One breeds the other.

[flag of convenience]

Because the UK is not really in Europe, it's never been in Europe, it's always thought itself better than Europe, whilst at the same time adopting European words for things to make them sound special, as in English just isn't a good enough language to describe things.

 

I know. The English in particular, having such an inflated view of themselves. Something not as immediate apparent in Mainland Europe. Others of course, don't necessary share that view, but I do get a sense Europeans proper do find English a bit of an oddity. In the nicest possible way of course.

[bunbury61]

I know. The English in particular, having such an inflated view of themselves. Something not as immediate apparent in Mainland Europe. Others of course, don't necessary share that view, but I do get a sense Europeans proper do find English a bit of an oddity. In the nicest possible way of course.

 

Top hole old boy ...now fetch me a glass of pimms will you ..with ice and a slice ...run along now ,there's a good boy

[flag of convenience]

Top hole old boy ...now fetch me a glass of pimms will you ..with ice and a slice ...run along now ,there's a good boy

 

Like I stated old mucker, the English are a definite oddity. I guess the Mainlanders suffer them for amusement value ....

[bunbury61]

Like I stated old mucker, the English are a definite oddity. I guess the Mainlanders suffer them for amusement value ....

 

Definite oddity ,but look at the achievements ...WHAT A CV .....iam sure they will be calling on us again if the **** hits the fan

[flag of convenience]

Definite oddity ,but look at the achievements ...WHAT A CV .....iam sure they will be calling on us again if the **** hits the fan

 

I believe Dads Army does still run on some of the more obscure TV stations. Not an especially good CV though since joining Europe. I believe many won't notice if the Brit's pull out. Apart from the many hundreds of thousands living in Spain, France, Portugal, Malta , Cyprus of course.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Definite oddity ,but look at the achievements ...WHAT A CV .....iam sure they will be calling on us again if the **** hits the fan

 

Well I hope not because the present generation aren't going to be signing up for it, there isn't going to be any coverage for their i-phones or sympathy on twitter.

This is exactly the problem for the UK, it's time for us to stop living in some imperial past, the last 2 wars and the cold war and hanging onto our imperial aspirations are what has bankrupted us and got us into the present state where we are being told that austerity is what we have to endure so that the country can carry on with these fantasies.

Wake up, we are a little island which had the good fortune to conquer and subdue an empire by being more mercenary, greedy and tyrannical than anybody else and couldn't negotiate with the colonies so that we retained their goodwill and now the reality is we want to keep all of our supposed glories from the past and keep strutting the world stage whilst at home we have food banks and a social system which cannot care properly for its pensioners and people are living in multi occupied properties that should have been demolished 40 years ago, these are the shades of our great Victorian and Edwardian imperial past that are the realities of today, not some load of fantasies about the exploits of the SAS and our boys who the establishment throw on the scrapheap with PTSD as soon as they are no longer useful.

sorry it's a rant but whilst ever these kinds of fantasies are indulged in there is no room for reality to be considered and dealt with, nor are the nationalist sentiments seen for what they are, dangerous precursors to war.

[speakeasy]

I just ask what will become of European peoples in three or four hundred years? Everyone will be a bland meso Belgique! These tensions need to be used to dissolve this "community" and continue to develop as independent entities once more. If decision making power doesn't go back that way it may end up getting even more swallowed up.

[speakeasy]

Well I hope not because the present generation aren't going to be signing up for it, there isn't going to be any coverage for their i-phones or sympathy on twitter.

This is exactly the problem for the UK, it's time for us to stop living in some imperial past, the last 2 wars and the cold war and hanging onto our imperial aspirations are what has bankrupted us and got us into the present state where we are being told that austerity is what we have to endure so that the country can carry on with these fantasies.

Wake up, we are a little island which had the good fortune to conquer and subdue an empire by being more mercenary, greedy and tyrannical than anybody else and couldn't negotiate with the colonies so that we retained their goodwill and now the reality is we want to keep all of our supposed glories from the past and keep strutting the world stage whilst at home we have food banks and a social system which cannot care properly for its pensioners and people are living in multi occupied properties that should have been demolished 40 years ago, these are the shades of our great Victorian and Edwardian imperial past that are the realities of today, not some load of fantasies about the exploits of the SAS and our boys who the establishment throw on the scrapheap with PTSD as soon as they are no longer useful.

sorry it's a rant but whilst ever these kinds of fantasies are indulged in there is no room for reality to be considered and dealt with, nor are the nationalist sentiments seen for what they are, dangerous precursors to war.

 

Yes but being a "community" hasn't stopped tensions breaking out from within.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Yes but being a "community" hasn't stopped tensions breaking out from within.

Better a few tensions than a repeat of the wars that have riven Europe for what, the last 11 centuries or so.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Yes but being a "community" hasn't stopped tensions breaking out from within.

And where are the tensions coming from but the states which have elected fervently nationalist govts and by the UK who are now being seen by other member states as way too demanding and sharp elbowed, with at least some ministers in other states saying, behind doors, that the if the UK want to leave that is their choice and they will have to live with the consequences.

My personal view is that if we vote to leave that within 5 years we will be applying to rejoin and we will be made to grovel and all of this post imperial hubris will have had to be finally addressed and faced up to.

[speakeasy]

I guess whilst each state within the Euro can still elect its own government, people can always choose to vote to the right. Even more so because they feel "put on" by the bureaucratic machinations enforcing a paradigm shift that might be too liberal for many people's taste. This may inflame deeply held views about social liberties and justice that this "economic block" doesn't facilitate.

The fact that Europe has always had those inter-national tensions you speak of means that now they are simply intra-national. No-one forgets their histories or who they are culturally because geographical definitions have changed. And many a civil war has erupted because of tensions within national boundaries over points of difference, usually along the same lines of right versus left. Often these battles last the longest because there are not enough opposing sides involved to want to make an agreement to end the conflict. Look at Syria. External sides are necessarily brought into the melee.

 

Europe contains a large bevvy of people with different ideas about nationhood and national identity which have been hard won as you say. The Union could just be seen as a way of suppressing peoples rights to continue these hard won freedoms in the name of this new Empire building. And the first reaction to this seems so be to vote to the right. Remember for many of the ex-soviet nations.. being "left-leaning" has a whole different meaning. Much has been denied them until far more recently from a left leaning centralized government. I'm not sure economic progress is quite as important to central/eastern Europeans as fully restoring their cultural and national identity. They are likely to be wary as one was traded for the other once before with disastrous effect. And while the European Union cannot be compared with the Soviet Union.. perhaps the level of overall power exerted feels the same.

[BacktoDemocracy]

I guess whilst each state within the Euro can still elect its own government, people can always choose to vote to the right. Even more so because they feel "put on" by the bureaucratic machinations enforcing a paradigm shift that might be too liberal for many people's taste. This may inflame deeply held views about social liberties and justice that this "economic block" doesn't facilitate.

The fact that Europe has always had those inter-national tensions you speak of means that now they are simply intra-national. No-one forgets their histories or who they are culturally because geographical definitions have changed. And many a civil war has erupted because of tensions within national boundaries over points of difference, usually along the same lines of right versus left. Often these battles last the longest because there are not enough opposing sides involved to want to make an agreement to end the conflict. Look at Syria. External sides are necessarily brought into the melee.

 

Europe contains a large bevvy of people with different ideas about nationhood and national identity which have been hard won as you say. The Union could just be seen as a way of suppressing peoples rights to continue these hard won freedoms in the name of this new Empire building. And the first reaction to this seems so be to vote to the right. Remember for many of the ex-soviet nations.. being "left-leaning" has a whole different meaning. Much has been denied them until far more recently from a left leaning centralized government. I'm not sure economic progress is quite as important to central/eastern Europeans as fully restoring their cultural and national identity. They are likely to be wary as one was traded for the other once before with disastrous effect. And while the European Union cannot be compared with the Soviet Union.. perhaps the level of overall power exerted feels the same.

The countries which seem to have gone to the right, other than the Balkans where it seems to have been ethnic conflicts which were never resolved after the first war and then compounded by Communism after the second, are Poland and Hungary who after throwing off the yoke of Stalinism were left leaning democracies who now seem to have fallen under the power of groupings with very undemocratic extreme right parties.

Other countries are Denmark with a administration with a similar view of the world, with the Netherlands drifting in a similar direction, I don't think any of these countries have a identity problem just a problem of people willing to use populist fears as a way of establishing a power base from which to foment problems.

[speakeasy]

The countries which seem to have gone to the right, other than the Balkans where it seems to have been ethnic conflicts which were never resolved after the first war and then compounded by Communism after the second, are Poland and Hungary who after throwing off the yoke of Stalinism were left leaning democracies who now seem to have fallen under the power of groupings with very undemocratic extreme right parties.

Other countries are Denmark with a administration with a similar view of the world, with the Netherlands drifting in a similar direction, I don't think any of these countries have a identity problem just a problem of people willing to use populist fears as a way of establishing a power base from which to foment problems.

 

Fair enough.. I don't think people are being "used" to help establish power bases. No more than usual. It's always the politics of the people, rightly or wrongly.

How you look at it will depend on whether you're pro-European or not. I think most are if it benefits them economically. But not to the detriment of being pro-Slavic, pro-celt or pro-scandanavian.. or what have you. People are ultimately tribal and how they identify as a group will determine how they wish their politics to be administered.

 

The EU is pro expansionist. But not everyone wants to move ahead with those policies. Fair enough. It's meant to be good for business so if that's where your heart lies then you'd probably be all for it. But there's a sense of culture at stake. I can understand that. I'm of the opinion that cultures are being eaten away by money and big business. This is all good up to a point. But without culture we are powerless anyway.

[BacktoDemocracy]

Fair enough.. I don't think people are being "used" to help establish power bases. No more than usual. It's always the politics of the people, rightly or wrongly.

How you look at it will depend on whether you're pro-European or not. I think most are if it benefits them economically. But not to the detriment of being pro-Slavic, pro-celt or pro-scandanavian.. or what have you. People are ultimately tribal and how they identify as a group will determine how they wish their politics to be administered.

 

The EU is pro expansionist. But not everyone wants to move ahead with those policies. Fair enough. It's meant to be good for business so if that's where your heart lies then you'd probably be all for it. But there's a sense of culture at stake. I can understand that. I'm of the opinion that cultures are being eaten away by money and big business. This is all good up to a point. But without culture we are powerless anyway.

So which culture are you in favour of, the culture which wants isolationism, non integration, does not want to help their fellow man, believes that might is right, believes in elites and benefits for those who are identified as the elite by money, position and power, or a culture which is inclusive, based on democratic principles, and strives for egalitarianism and merit.

I do not believe that the EU is pro big business, it has striven to curb its powers and has sought to put in place a great deal of protective legislation for workers, consumers and the environment, and it is for those very reasons that the Right has such a visceral hatred of it and why they try to convince the public of why it is destroying their "culture", it wants to set country against country because whilst we are all arguing over who owns which bit of the continent the Right and their big business buddies are stashing their untaxed profits away in the Cayman Islands.

[speakeasy]

Ok.

 

We're all entitled to our say. I don't see it quite that way and your question is loaded so when I talk about culture.. it was precisely an inclusive one. But not one determined by outside forces. Thou shalt have this culture! Culture can only genuinely be shaped from within and strengthened with goodwill between people, and many European countries have sustained theirs based on such. Is it too much to ask that they now comply with the incessant wishes of Brussels? To be called fascist or racist because they care about how this compliance with being a good European community somehow betrays their sense of national sovereignty? I mean the existence of the EU MAY avoid wars but people are starting to feel the pressure of being withheld as prisoners in their own countries while their countries become radically changed from within. Not with bombs and guns but with drastic social overhauls which may be violently opposed to by some. w

 

You might not trust their views but it's obvious they don't trust what they see going on either and everyone is starting to feel that much is at stake.. Precisely the precursor to a social war.

From my perspective.. why should everyone want to cooperate with those who may not understand the culture best for them? Isn't that precisely when we start to fall under a dictatorship and weaken our grip on who we are? This rush to abandon individuality to become more like something else and less like ourselves. For some who aren't used to change it can be traumatic.

 

Maybe some people are happier being Danish or Polish or Slovakian rather than simply a "European" breed. Maybe that's not the same for you. But I believe there's a historical precedent to all of this and for each country that differs and I think people are scared to lose the best parts of their culture and the decision making that goes with them.

 

Globalisation is shifting us all but we've got to watch out for this incessant need for compliance, obligation to conform and commitment to the greater community in spite of our own. We cannot be all things to all people. We cannot stretch ourselves like that.

 

"In a world where political and economic systems that are theoretically supposed to serve humanity's needs end up controlling, exploiting, and even crushing our individuality and integrity.. any opposition can seem like a revolutionary act".

[speakeasy]

And I'm not talking about what the politicians have to say.. I'm talking about what's in people's hearts. Because it seems we're too busy listening to men of power and their sound bites and not enough talking with one another. Another cultural loss.