Should the UK cut ties with the EU?

[jacktar]

There would still be asylum seekers, genuine or otherwise without an EU.

 

 

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[bunbury61]

 

@Bunbury - you know of course that the refugees would exist with or without the EU. The issue has been caused by the destabilisation of their government (supported by the UK and opposed by Russia), creating a vacuum into which ISIS has stepped. It didn't take the clairvoyant powers of Mystic Meg to foresee that outcome.So, now you have lots of refugees. The question is what you are going to do about them. The EU is trying to develop a coordinated approach to share the immediate burden evenly. They may not get it right - there are lots of moving parts. But without the EU trying to coordinate the outcome would be much worse.Oh, and I think it is difficult to blame a gunman in Eurodisney on the EU. Unless you have a special insight we don't...

Yes agreed the west is responsible for the situation,but the crisis should be dealt with at source ,in the middle east .The e.u has actually facilitated the problem .Now its open house from Mozambique to morocco ,whilst the real refugees are almost ignored.Bringing millions of refugees and economic migrants to western Europe is not the answer.There will be major disorder on the streets this summer I fear .

[Thom]

Is this good enough reason to leave?

 

European leaders have been discussing the idea of an EU wide unemployment benefit funded by tax payers.

 

In an extraordinary meeting of the employment committee Minister Pier Padoan put forward proposals for a centralised EU run fund to deal with the millions of unemployed people, many as a direct result of the eurozone crisis and the policies of the European Central Bank.

The economist said he thought that the funding for the scheme, which was proposed by the Italian government in the ECOFIN meeting of European economic ministers, should come from "collective instruments" i.e taxes.

"There are a number of channels via how countries can fund such a scheme," said Mr Padoan. "Clearly it would have to come from member states."

"One of those is proportionally via GDP" he told Euro MPs with the other being taxation which could, like VAT, be a direct financial resource for the EU.

And the minister said that the project could well go outside the Eurozone, saying that what was needed was "more integration in the future."

[BacktoDemocracy]

Yes agreed the west is responsible for the situation,but the crisis should be dealt with at source ,in the middle east .The e.u has actually facilitated the problem .Now its open house from Mozambique to morocco ,whilst the real refugees are almost ignored.Bringing millions of refugees and economic migrants to western Europe is not the answer.There will be major disorder on the streets this summer I fear .

There will be disorder if prejudice, rumour and scare mongering are allowed to get in the way of facts and compassion just as it did in 1938/9 when countries refused visas for Jews to escape Nazi Germany when it was known what they were suffering and it was for all the same reasons.

[bunbury61]

There will be disorder if prejudice, rumour and scare mongering are allowed to get in the way of facts and compassion just as it did in 1938/9 when countries refused visas for Jews to escape Nazi Germany when it was known what they were suffering and it was for all the same reasons.

 

Are we talking about the same Jews that are being shot ,stabbed and generally harassed in France ?...

 

You are barking up the wrong tree .

The people you perceive to be the oppressed are actually the oppressors .

Harassing and raping women in cologne .

Ethnially cleansing christians from the middle east .

Forcing yazidi women into sex slavery .

Creating no go areas in Sweden's cities .

Get your head put of your arse .

To ally this to the Jewish situation in the 1930s is offensive to Sa the least .

The Jews were rounded up and gassed in their thousands.

These people are rounded up ,given food ,accommodation, access to a lawyer,and then the fun really starts.

The bottom line is ,it isn't going to work .

As I said before ,Britain and the e.u should be spending its considerable foreign aid budget on helping these people at source .

 

We have a few on here pontificating .

For example if the Australian govt agreed to take 250,000 refugees .

50,000 to Brisbane or Perth .

When the local Australians cant get housing ,health care ,or school places the friction starts,as it is in Europe .

 

And as I have said on here many times...what are the Saudis ,Qatar ,Bahrain and many other middle eastern countries doing for these poor oppressed people ..

**** all that's what

They have the money and the space ..

But they just turn their backs ,as they have with the Palestinian issue

[BacktoDemocracy]

Are we talking about the same Jews that are being shot ,stabbed and generally harassed in France ?...

 

You are barking up the wrong tree .

The people you perceive to be the oppressed are actually the oppressors .

Harassing and raping women in cologne .

Ethnially cleansing christians from the middle east .

Forcing yazidi women into sex slavery .

Creating no go areas in Sweden's cities .

Get your head put of your arse .

To ally this to the Jewish situation in the 1930s is offensive to Sa the least .

The Jews were rounded up and gassed in their thousands.

These people are rounded up ,given food ,accommodation, access to a lawyer,and then the fun really starts.

The bottom line is ,it isn't going to work .

As I said before ,Britain and the e.u should be spending its considerable foreign aid budget on helping these people at source .

 

We have a few on here pontificating .

For example if the Australian govt agreed to take 250,000 refugees .

50,000 to Brisbane or Perth .

When the local Australians cant get housing ,health care ,or school places the friction starts,as it is in Europe .

 

And as I have said on here many times...what are the Saudis ,Qatar ,Bahrain and many other middle eastern countries doing for these poor oppressed people ..

**** all that's what

They have the money and the space ..

But they just turn their backs ,as they have with the Palestinian issue

As I said prejudice, rumour and scare mongering, no women raped in Cologne only sexual assault, the rest seemed to be a complete rant of prejudice.

The arab countries you mention are of the same form of Islam that has spawned Isil

[T22row]

Way too late the uk is full of refugees, immigrants who can't speak English and don't have skills taking all our jobs houses claiming our benefits. Might as well have a sign on entry welcome all

[Quinkla]

Way too late the uk is full of refugees, immigrants who can't speak English and don't have skills taking all our jobs houses claiming our benefits. Might as well have a sign on entry welcome all

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if they can't speak English and have no skills, how are they taking all "your" jobs, and if they have taken all "your" jobs, how are they eligible for housing benefit?

[jodipodi]

:laugh::laugh: ffs

[bunbury61]

As I said prejudice, rumour and scare mongering, no women raped in Cologne only sexual assault, the rest seemed to be a complete rant of prejudice.

The arab countries you mention are of the same form of Islam that has spawned Isil

 

There were actually 2 rapes and sexual assaults in cologne .

Not only incidents in cologne ,but also Hamburg and other German cities.

Is this acceptable ?.....even if there were no rapes,is that acceptable behaviour .

A top Jordanian representative has just been on the radio.

Jordan has taken over a million refugees ,now making up over 20% of the population.

He was complaining about the numbers ,but about the west doing nothing to financially ,and that other old chestnut " security "

 

Iam sure he was scaremongering and over reacting about ISIS infiltrating his country .

 

Lets wait for the next round of suicide bombings ,or another attack on a western city ,probably in the next few days ...its all scaremongering and propaganda you know

 

And don't use the word ISIL please ....the L stands for levante ,which geographically includes the land of Israel ,that will never happen .

[bunbury61]

There were actually 2 rapes and sexual assaults in cologne .

Not only incidents in cologne ,but also Hamburg and other German cities.

Is this acceptable ?.....even if there were no rapes,is that acceptable behaviour .

A top Jordanian representative has just been on the radio.

Jordan has taken over a million refugees ,now making up over 20% of the population.

He was complaining about the numbers ,but about the west doing nothing to financially ,and that other old chestnut " security "

 

Iam sure he was scaremongering and over reacting about ISIS infiltrating his country .

 

Lets wait for the next round of suicide bombings ,or another attack on a western city ,probably in the next few days ...its all scaremongering and propaganda you know

 

And don't use the word ISIL please ....the L stands for levante ,which geographically includes the land of Israel ,that will never happen .

 

 

3 alleged rapes and 1500 sexual.assaults across Germany on new years eve .....and you call that scaremongering .....that is indefensible...those women could be your wife or daughter ...disgraceful.

[T22row]

Don't need to speak English to to farming flower picking etc and they're earning a pittance so claim benefits why pay an Englishman min wage when you can get a foreigner doing cash on hand for half the price

[amibovered]

After today's "historic" announcement it looks like we'll be heading out.

[Thom]

Dreadful deal achieved by Cameron, not worth the paper it's written on.

 

Get us out now.

[Quinkla]

Do Tory Eurosceptics never wonder why Tory leaders think it is so important to remain within the EU despite having used anti-European rhetoric to get elected? Thatcher wanted to remain in Europe - so too John Major, William Hague, IDS, Michael Hecht and now David Cameron. Every one of them thinks being in the EU is better than being out of it.

 

Labour leaders too. And Liberals. And the SNP. In fact, despite the posturing, you have across the board consensus from all political leaders for the past 30 years that being in the EU is a good thing.

 

But I suppose it is possible that you and your mate down the pub who heard about the rapes in Germany might know best...

[Guest]

The EU is great for big business. It seems weird that Tory's want to leave and not Labour. Labour voters would gain the most from being outside the EU.

[northshorepom]

I can just see the whole thing festering until the "UK out" supporters get their way

 

But even then they still won't be happy. Because most of what really bothers them isn't driven affected that much by being part of the EU. I strongly believe most "UK out" supporters are driven by a general desire to have less foreigners in the UK, and/or a feeling that the UK was in a better place when it was an Imperial Power rather than part of Europe.

 

But if the UK leaves, there will still be foreigners there. And the clock won't be turned back. So they still won't be happy, but I expect they will carry on blaming the EU and saying how good life could have been, if only we hadn't wasted 50 years being in it. But we have been, that's an immutable fact

 

It won't settle anything, in other words. And personally I think it would be risky, a leap into the dark driven by emotion and gut feel. I'm glad I'll be on the other side of the world

 

(BTW, same goes for break up of the UK union in my mind, so from my perspective it's not a party political thing: I think that would be an act of folly that's driven by emotion, and most of that negative - ie anti-English, rather than pro-Scottish)

[Quinkla]

(BTW, same goes for break up of the UK union in my mind, so from my perspective it's not a party political thing: I think that would be an act of folly that's driven by emotion, and most of that negative - ie anti-English, rather than pro-Scottish)

20 years ago, I would have agreed with you. But since devolution, I think one of the main changes has been the growth of a positive Scottish identity rather than simply having an anti-English mentality. Increasingly, Scots don't know or care what happens south of the border - they are building a new and vibrant Scotland that embraces migrants from all countries including England, building a strong economy with a strong social conscience. I think this positivity is what is leading to greater support for independence.

[Keith and Linda]

I can just see the whole thing festering until the "UK out" supporters get their way

 

But even then they still won't be happy. Because most of what really bothers them isn't driven affected that much by being part of the EU. I strongly believe most "UK out" supporters are driven by a general desire to have less foreigners in the UK, and/or a feeling that the UK was in a better place when it was an Imperial Power rather than part of Europe.

 

But if the UK leaves, there will still be foreigners there. And the clock won't be turned back. So they still won't be happy, but I expect they will carry on blaming the EU and saying how good life could have been, if only we hadn't wasted 50 years being in it. But we have been, that's an immutable fact

 

It won't settle anything, in other words. And personally I think it would be risky, a leap into the dark driven by emotion and gut feel. I'm glad I'll be on the other side of the world

 

(BTW, same goes for break up of the UK union in my mind, so from my perspective it's not a party political thing: I think that would be an act of folly that's driven by emotion, and most of that negative - ie anti-English, rather than pro-Scottish)

 

I can not see there being too many people about these days that were about and enjoying when Britain was an Imperial power! and also a very blinkered view of folk if you think they only want less foreigners, I think they deserve more credit than you give them.

[Wooba]

I can just see the whole thing festering until the "UK out" supporters get their way

 

But even then they still won't be happy. Because most of what really bothers them isn't driven affected that much by being part of the EU. I strongly believe most "UK out" supporters are driven by a general desire to have less foreigners in the UK, and/or a feeling that the UK was in a better place when it was an Imperial Power rather than part of Europe.

 

But if the UK leaves, there will still be foreigners there. And the clock won't be turned back. So they still won't be happy, but I expect they will carry on blaming the EU and saying how good life could have been, if only we hadn't wasted 50 years being in it. But we have been, that's an immutable fact

 

 

I don't agree. It's about being able to control your destiny. Politicians that British people didn't vote for are making laws for them. It's another level of government that's extremely expensive and unnecessary. Red tape on another level.

No matter how good it sounds, it's impossible to get multiple societies with different values, interests and languages to work together under one government. What does a politician from Finland know about the needs of people from Portugal for example?

 

I live in Canada where part of the country is French. The political differences and the threat of breaking up the country is something that just never goes away. We can't resolve something with 2 languages/cultures. There's no way it can work with a couple of dozen.

 

There's many people across Europe, not just the UK who can see what a colossal failure the EU is. I can't see the EU being able to do anything to change the minds of most of those people. How can a union of this type work when such a significant portion of people resent it? Long term is destined to fail. Be trading partners absolutely, but run your own countries. Norway and Switzerland were smart to do just that.

[Quinkla]

I don't agree. It's about being able to control your destiny. Politicians that British people didn't vote for are making laws for them.

Then it's surprising that the politicians you do vote for are not up in arms about it. Quite the contrary - it seems to be the elected politicians who are most in favour of Project Europe. Don't you ever wonder why that might be?

[Guest]

Because a lot of politicians follow the party line for career progression? it's not surprising the eurosceptics are on the back benches. Also more Government jobs are created for their party. I would happily sit in a cushy MEP job.

[Quinkla]

But you would expect that the closer a politician came to the seat of power, the more he or she would resent any loss of sovereignty. David Cameron is not going to support the EU because it creates roles for Tory MEPs. The fact that he supports the EU indicates to me that the EU must be helpful to the Government he leads.

 

Eurosceptics on all sides are sent to the back benches - mostly because their line is so divorced from common sense that it's the only place for them. Labour used to oppose the EEC but this was a policy they moved away from because it became untenable. The prime movers for change were the Labour leadership under Neil Kinnock who, at the time, would have harboured real ambitions to be Prime Minister.

[Guest]

David Cameron will do what his party donors want him to do generally. Sorry i'm pretty sceptical of politicians.

 

It was only a week or so again Goldman Sachs were shoveling money into the pro EU camp. They obviously think the EU is good for them

[Gbye grey sky]

The EU is great for big business. It seems weird that Tory's want to leave and not Labour. Labour voters would gain the most from being outside the EU.

 

If the EU was great for big business it would have the whole-hearted support of Murdoch's papers and the Tory press generally and it most certainly doesn't. This is a misconception really and one that has been carefully manipulated by the right. The EU creates regulations (principally favouring citizens over Corporations and heavy handed government legislation) and nothing irritates Murdoch and his right wing capitalist friends like regulation.