Guest Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I don't see why citizenship should be forced on anyone. Pr holders contribute just as much as a citizen it should be as it is now a choice. Many older immigrants who have been as in this mans case here fifty plus years and don't feel the need to become citizens it doesn't mean they are wrong or bad. In some cases they don't have the finance to do it either. If they stick to the rules and don't break the law they are quite safe in regards to their status. I do however see an irony here in regards to migrant children and how easy it is for them to be given habitual residency in Hague cases though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabelj28 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 If he wanted to be considered an Australian Citizen why did he never apply to become one, during all those 50 years ? He can vote. Permanent residents who were here before a certain time can vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabelj28 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 He can vote. Permanent residents who were here before a certain time can vote. Apologies. That was meant for gbye grey sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Well we made sure our babies became citizens along with us many years ago. Couldn't have a family with half and half for one ( 2 were born here). It shows a lack of commitment not to take out citizenship and I have no sympathy whatsoever for this bloke. Of course he knew- you have to produce your citizenship cert all the time, especially for Centrelink, medicare etc. Hope he enjoys his life in the UK, bit harder to start fires there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Well we made sure our babies became citizens along with us many years ago. Couldn't have a family with half and half for one ( 2 were born here). It shows a lack of commitment not to take out citizenship and I have no sympathy whatsoever for this bloke. Of course he knew- you have to produce your citizenship cert all the time, especially for Centrelink, medicare etc. Hope he enjoys his life in the UK, bit harder to start fires there. Excuse me never been asked to prove citizenship at centrelink ever. Besides pr holders are entitled to centrelink. How exactly is thirty plus years living in a country showing lack of commitment. For various reason people choose not take up citizenship it's hardly lack of commitment to live in a country,work,pay taxes and do community work ie coach a sports team all without citizenship. I do however agree with you on no sympathy for the man here getting deported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Well we made sure our babies became citizens along with us many years ago. Couldn't have a family with half and half for one ( 2 were born here). It shows a lack of commitment not to take out citizenship and I have no sympathy whatsoever for this bloke. Of course he knew- you have to produce your citizenship cert all the time, especially for Centrelink, medicare etc. Hope he enjoys his life in the UK, bit harder to start fires there. Why would you have to produce a citizenship certificate for Centrelink or medicare as a matter of interest. I don't have much truck with this guy but, at the end of the day, citizenship is really just a piece of paper. I was born and bred and lived for 55 years in the UK but within 4 years I can be (and expect to apply to be) a citizen. Many posters on here literally stay just long enough to get the piece of paper and then return "home" as they put it often with little or no intention to return. Why, on the back of this, Australia would grant greater rights to people such as them and myself compared with someone who quite literally has lived their entire life in Australia and so is culturally totally Australian potentially with no family or anyone in the country of their birth. Indeed it is likely that if married their spouse would not be able to leave with them. It doesn't seem to be the way that a civilised country should act and I say this really reluctantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Why would you have to produce a citizenship certificate for Centrelink or medicare as a matter of interest. I don't have much truck with this guy but, at the end of the day, citizenship is really just a piece of paper. I was born and bred and lived for 55 years in the UK but within 4 years I can be (and expect to apply to be) a citizen. Many posters on here literally stay just long enough to get the piece of paper and then return "home" as they put it often with little or no intention to return. Why, on the back of this, Australia would grant greater rights to people such as them and myself compared with someone who quite literally has lived their entire life in Australia and so is culturally totally Australian potentially with no family or anyone in the country of their birth. Indeed it is likely that if married their spouse would not be able to leave with them. It doesn't seem to be the way that a civilised country should act and I say this really reluctantly. One doesn't have to provide evidence of citizenship and agree entirely with this post. This is far from the first case where intelligence failed to prevail. Only thing in the case of the person being deported is at least he is being sent to a country that speaks English. Others have been less fortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Well we made sure our babies became citizens along with us many years ago. Couldn't have a family with half and half for one ( 2 were born here). It shows a lack of commitment not to take out citizenship and I have no sympathy whatsoever for this bloke. Of course he knew- you have to produce your citizenship cert all the time, especially for Centrelink, medicare etc. Hope he enjoys his life in the UK, bit harder to start fires there. No you do not. Other forms of evidence would have ben ample. As if everyone in the country has a passport. Brit's were famously reticent in previous years in obtaining Australian citizenship. It is not hard to see that someone who never travels wouldn't give the matter a second thought. It is a free choice after all. There is no compulsory order to become a citizen. In fact a number don't due to the fact they'll lose their original citizenship. When Australia starts deporting obvious Aussies it is a matter of some concern or should be to us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie2012 Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 Well we made sure our babies became citizens along with us many years ago. Couldn't have a family with half and half for one ( 2 were born here). It shows a lack of commitment not to take out citizenship and I have no sympathy whatsoever for this bloke. Of course he knew- you have to produce your citizenship cert all the time, especially for Centrelink, medicare etc. Hope he enjoys his life in the UK, bit harder to start fires there. for whatever reason he did not get his citizenship sorted we do not know, regardless he has an Australian family, not a UK one. So I assume it is okay to send him back and wreck his family? It is not easy to start a life in a new country at age 50 and you can start a bush fire by accident also..he was caught and prosecuted for it. I have hard time believing that at age 50 anyone would want to became a criminal. But that is not the point while the UK allows dual citizenship, many countries still don't and even prosecute people upon return - believe it or not. Could have been a person from one of those countries. Would that make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 for whatever reason he did not get his citizenship sorted we do not know, regardless he has an Australian family, not a UK one. So I assume it is okay to send him back and wreck his family? It is not easy to start a life in a new country at age 50 and you can start a bush fire by accident also..he was caught and prosecuted for it. I have hard time believing that at age 50 anyone would want to became a criminal. But that is not the point while the UK allows dual citizenship, many countries still don't and even prosecute people upon return - believe it or not. Could have been a person from one of those countries. Would that make a difference? No it wouldn't quite a few have already been deported to non English speaking countries (where the person being deported doesn't even speak the language). Two cases spring to mind the bikie fellow sent back to Malta and another man sent back to Switzerland (although in both those cases they had a long criminal history). There was also a rapist not too long ago sent back the UK. The point is behave don't break the law and get locked up and you're safe from being deported. Like you i have a hard time believing that age fifty someone suddenly decides to light a fire? Why? Perhaps he's done it before but not been caught? He should've thought about his family before he commited the crime. I do of course feel sorry for his family as none of this is their fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 The point is behave don't break the law and get locked up and you're safe from being deported. A quote right out of 18th century England. One of the things that troubles me is that the way this legislation is framed it is quite regressive harking back to less civilised times. And supporters often portray themselves as so self-righteous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 For various reasons people choose not take up citizenship What reasons? These are the only ones I can think of: 1. You can't afford it (though that's no excuse for older people who've been here a long time, it used to cost peanuts); 2. You come from a country that requires you to give up your citizenship to become an Aussie. Other possible reasons: 3. Laziness; 4. A bloody-minded dislike for authority; 5. No sense of belonging ("I was born a Croat and I'll always be a Croat!) - in which case, what are they doing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 The point is behave don't break the law and get locked up and you're safe from being deported. Like you i have a hard time believing that age fifty someone suddenly decides to light a fire? Why? Perhaps he's done it before but not been caught? He should've thought about his family before he commited the crime. Even in a world where miscarriages of justice never happen, this misses the point. People do break the law. We wish they wouldn't, but they do. We might also wish that long term residents might apply for citizenship, but some don't. Given that, how should we proceed? Nobody thinks fire-raising is acceptable and that's why there are criminal penalties for those who start them. The issue is what you do with people once they have served their sentence. Are they Australia's problem or are they someone else's problem. I have no problem with deciding that recent migrants or visitors should be someone else’s problem. These people don’t really belong to Australia. But someone who has lived in Australia for many years, or who migrated as a child or infant, very much belongs to Australia and if he or she transgresses, serves a jail sentence, then he or she should be allowed (and expected) to continue his or her life in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silencio Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 We all assume that this British chap didn't take out Australian citizenship for some (or even no) reason. But what about the assumption that he hasn't been eligible to apply for Australian citizenship at all? The report doesn't say anything about previous convictions and he probably failed the character test long time ago. That's what I'm guessing as obtaining citizenship used to be easy-peasy in those days. Anyway, I don't have any sympathy for arsonists in a country where bush fires are the order of the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Fortunately England doesn't have a lot of bush. So hopefully he doesn't cause too much damage. I think though the people who start fires are addicted to the thrill they get from it and tend to reoffend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It is interesting to here today, that the riot taking place on Christmas Island, the ABC has reported that witnesses say the fires and violence was started by New Zealanders who are there after having there visas cancelled. Maybe this indicates that there is very good reason for Australia to get rid of these people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Anyway, I don't have any sympathy for arsonists in a country where bush fires are the order of the day! Agreed. Over 560 people have died in bushfires in Australia. It's a most horrendous way to die. In the Australian context with its potential for death and destruction, anyone who starts a bushfire is a terrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It is interesting to here today, that the riot taking place on Christmas Island, the ABC has reported that witnesses say the fires and violence was started by New Zealanders who are there after having there visas cancelled. Maybe this indicates that there is very good reason for Australia to get rid of these people Or that there was a bloody good reason for the riot. Conditions in Australian government processing areas are nothing short of inhumane. If I was in those centres, there's a good chance I would riot too. Also, I've been reading the ABC and nothing I've read assigns blame to anyone. They just mention that some NZ citizens are present in the centres. They also mention that some people have blockaded themselves in their cells in terror. Should they be blamed for the riots? Should Serco, who seem to have abandoned their posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckleface Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I don't have any sympathy for this man regardless of how long he has been a guest in Aust. They sooner they deport him, and those like him, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robfromdublin Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Agreed. Over 560 people have died in bushfires in Australia. It's a most horrendous way to die. In the Australian context with its potential for death and destruction, anyone who starts a bushfire is a terrorist. A terrorist? How do you figure that? About 1300 people a year die in car accidents. Does that mean someone driving dangerously or drunk should be labelled a terrorist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 A terrorist? How do you figure that? About 1300 people a year die in car accidents. Does that mean someone driving dangerously or drunk should be labelled a terrorist? Don't be silly. A bushfire is effectively a weapon of mass destruction so the terrorist label fits. Read up on the Black Saturday bushfires in Victoria. Some fires deliberately lit killed scores of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Read this and you might change your mind. http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/black-saturday-arsonist-jailed-for-17-years-20120427-1xptl.html At least I hope you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 A bushfire is effectively a weapon of mass destruction so the terrorist label fits. Exactly so. Not only human lives but the suffering of stock and native animals and the destruction of buildings, infrastructure and livelihoods is immeasurable. It's bad enough that bushfires can be caused by natural causes or accident. Anyone who deliberately starts one deserves no sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Or that there was a bloody good reason for the riot. Conditions in Australian government processing areas are nothing short of inhumane. If I was in those centres, there's a good chance I would riot too. Also, I've been reading the ABC and nothing I've read assigns blame to anyone. They just mention that some NZ citizens are present in the centres. They also mention that some people have blockaded themselves in their cells in terror. Should they be blamed for the riots? Should Serco, who seem to have abandoned their posts? A bloody good reason as suggested. Although the asylum seekers have even more reason to have rioted I'd suspect than New Zealand citizens whom have served their time. The two groups don't mix and violence and stand over tactics have ben directed at asylum seekers by the potential deportees. There was warnings I believe a few weeks ago that it and/or another centre on the mainland may go off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Anyway, I don't have any sympathy for arsonists in a country where bush fires are the order of the day! I think you are being disingenuous to imply that those who disagree with deporting this chap have sympathy for him. My reasoning is based on morality and procedural fairness. If we have a problem with fire raisers, we should jail them in accordance with the law. But deporting one just because he happened to be born overseas looks to me like being punished twice when someone else would be punished only once. Plus, it has the potential to break families apart. Plus, it is not fair on the country to which the person is deported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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