Jeremy Corbyn, thoughts?

[Skyba]

Corporations such as Vodafone, Starbucks, Amazon etc can threaten to leave the country resulting in not only HMRC getting zero corporation tax but also losing the VAT, personal income tax & NI their presence generates and thousands of people on the dole. They really hold all the cards and for the government to do anger them would be like cutting their nose off to spite their face. The principle might not be for be fair but I prefer it to the alternative which would be to increase taxes on those who cannot avoid it, ie 'normal' people.

 

 

 

This argument is so flawed it's unreal.....

 

 

Vodafone aren't going to lose £££Bn in profit by leaving the country if you make the changes to the tax loopholes necessary to stop them from registering themselves to a tax haven, if Starbucks want to go let them, take their properties as payment for unpaid taxes, as I said above Costa would happily take their place and pay tax if not sell the property off to a local business owner at a cut rate as long as they promise to employ at least 2 people on a LIVING wage. You can't live in fear that these companies will go because of it carries on non of the large multinationals will ever pay their fair share of tax and it will get even more out of control than it is now.

 

These we companies are driven by money, given the choice of making £100bn profit and paying their tax or losing their market share in the UK economy they will tKe the cut in their profit and paying taxes. The only people who think the scare mongering idea that they will all run away are the Tories who will believe anything to justify cuts to the most vulnerable over getting what's owed by law from the big guys.

 

You say we'd see tax rises for the "normal" people, what do you think we are seeing right now because they aren't paying their tax??? Tax credits for working families have been cut which is effectively a tax rise on the people who need it most and a VAT rise that can never get reversed, we'll see people being pushed into poverty and further benefit cuts that will leave children hungry and 18-22 year olds unable to get the help with housing and tax credits that they need because the country is being run by these companies that not only avoid tax but only employ people on zero hour contracts and minimum wage!!

[Gbye grey sky]

This argument is so flawed it's unreal.....

 

 

Vodafone aren't going to lose £££Bn in profit by leaving the country if you make the changes to the tax loopholes necessary to stop them from registering themselves to a tax haven, if Starbucks want to go let them, take their properties as payment for unpaid taxes, as I said above Costa would happily take their place and pay tax if not sell the property off to a local business owner at a cut rate as long as they promise to employ at least 2 people on a LIVING wage. You can't live in fear that these companies will go because of it carries on non of the large multinationals will ever pay their fair share of tax and it will get even more out of control than it is now.

 

These we companies are driven by money, given the choice of making £100bn profit and paying their tax or losing their market share in the UK economy they will tKe the cut in their profit and paying taxes. The only people who think the scare mongering idea that they will all run away are the Tories who will believe anything to justify cuts to the most vulnerable over getting what's owed by law from the big guys.

 

You say we'd see tax rises for the "normal" people, what do you think we are seeing right now because they aren't paying their tax??? Tax credits for working families have been cut which is effectively a tax rise on the people who need it most and a VAT rise that can never get reversed, we'll see people being pushed into poverty and further benefit cuts that will leave children hungry and 18-22 year olds unable to get the help with housing and tax credits that they need because the country is being run by these companies that not only avoid tax but only employ people on zero hour contracts and minimum wage!!

 

I do not disagree with your underlying argument but I believe that you seriously underestimate the strength and power of these multi-national companies and their teams of expensive lawyers and accountants. It is not only the Tories and the UK who have failed to bring companies to heel with tax. If you take them on you have to be prepared to spend millions in legal fees and years in the courts with no guarantee of success.

[grahamffc]

Vodafone probably does make a lot from the UK but unless you are an expert analyst of the global telecoms industry (given you think retailers such as Starbucks own their stores I'm guessing not) we don't know they get a better return than they would by moving their investment to India, Brazil, or Africa.

 

Tax credits are subsidising low wages, remove/reduce them and benefits (ie not working at all) may seem

like a financially better alternative initially, employers them need to increase wages if they want anyone to work for them. Which assuming your point about them wanting to make money is true they will be have to do. The trouble with intervening in any market is that it's impossible to get it right and know when to stop. Benefits (for able bodied people), minimum wages, tax credits, living wages which will need to defer from one town to the next all need to be balanced and constantly changed depending on many variables. Or you could just let the market find its own ever changing equilibrium.

[grahamffc]

I do not disagree with your underlying argument but I believe that you seriously underestimate the strength and power of these multi-national companies and their teams of expensive lawyers and accountants. It is not only the Tories and the UK who have failed to bring companies to heel with tax. If you take them on you have to be prepared to spend millions in legal fees and years in the courts with no guarantee of success.

 

Michael Hessletine said recently in question time that when he was in Government they tried to get countries like the Cayman Islands and Monaco to agree to bilateral tax treaties but unsurprisingly they weren't interested. Governments before tried and the Governments since will have too. There is essentially nothing HMRC can do to force a company registered there to pay corporation tax in the UK. Only a retired MP would dare to be so honest because it's not what the public wants to hear.

[Skyba]

I do not disagree with your underlying argument but I believe that you seriously underestimate the strength and power of these multi-national companies and their teams of expensive lawyers and accountants. It is not only the Tories and the UK who have failed to bring companies to heel with tax. If you take them on you have to be prepared to spend millions in legal fees and years in the courts with no guarantee of success.

 

 

 

I think you are vastly underestimating the HMRC really.

 

This is the British government, we create our laws, yes if the Tories allow this international court especially for multinationals to become a thing then we may have a problem but right here right now we make our own laws and if the country wanted to take thee companies for what they have we not only have the law but we have the government and an entire country backing us up.

 

If the uk government say look you owe £Xxxbn in tax you pay or we take your assets and In future you pay your tax. Change the law so non doms aren't a thing and any company earning money in the UK pays its taxes in the UK, no employees are allowed to be paying tax in another country, if they want to they also have to pay UK tax on top. This is still our country and we still make the laws not the business leaders. Their lawyers don't have any laws to draw from when the laws are made by the people in charge and if they wanted to they could make them robust enough so that there was no way around them.

[Skyba]

Vodafone probably does make a lot from the UK but unless you are an expert analyst of the global telecoms industry (given you think retailers such as Starbucks own their stores I'm guessing not) we don't know they get a better return than they would by moving their investment to India, Brazil, or Africa.

 

Tax credits are subsidising low wages, remove/reduce them and benefits (ie not working at all) may seem

like a financially better alternative initially, employers them need to increase wages if they want anyone to work for them. Which assuming your point about them wanting to make money is true they will be have to do. The trouble with intervening in any market is that it's impossible to get it right and know when to stop. Benefits (for able bodied people), minimum wages, tax credits, living wages which will need to defer from one town to the next all need to be balanced and constantly changed depending on many variables. Or you could just let the market find its own ever changing equilibrium.

 

 

No what happens is the people who can't afford to live when they get their benefits taken still work in the low paid jobs and have to move back in with family members or live in crowded flat shares in sub standard conditions, or worse still the can't afford that and have no family and will be jobless and homeless, the Tories don't care about this because it doesn't effect them and theirs:

 

Mia's for Vodafone moving to another market feck em let them go!! Who cares whether they are getting their mobile deal from Vodafone or giff gaff??? If one company leaves another will move into its place and will work under the rules set out because it will see if it tries it on it will lose its place in the market and become the next Vodafone trying to make money in Africa!

[Skyba]

Michael Hessletine said recently in question time that when he was in Government they tried to get countries like the Cayman Islands and Monaco to agree to bilateral tax treaties but unsurprisingly they weren't interested. Governments before tried and the Governments since will have too. There is essentially nothing HMRC can do to force a company registered there to pay corporation tax in the UK. Only a retired MP would dare to be so honest because it's not what the public wants to hear.

 

 

 

Yes there is but they don't want to becUse it would probably harm their pockets of the pockets of their pals, they're all corrupt high is exactly why corbyn is and will be so popular.

 

If the HMRC said right any company earning money in this country will pay 20% on all of its earnings on a monthly basis regardless of where it's registered or be shut down there is absolutely nothing the company could do but comply..

 

I have a Ltd company that I use to work as an electric sub contractor and I HAVE TO pay via CIS to ensure that my tax is paid and whatever I claim at the end of the year will be refunded to me, each year HMRC Will pick a trade to look into and they will shaft anyone who has over claimed or will send a letter first saying confess now and we will only ask you to pay what's unpaid. Now think of the man hours that takes for such a small Return, how many large scale companies are there in the UK who are really taking the piss in terms of billions in unpaid tax?? Not that many, you could easily have a small team of people who monitor such companies to ensure they are paying their tax.

 

beside all of that though you are assuming that it's only tax loopholes that's leading to he unpaid tax! The £8bn Vodafone owed was a genuine tax bill that was legally owed not money that was being lost via a loophole and they still got away with it

[grahamffc]

I think you are vastly underestimating the HMRC really.

 

This is the British government, we create our laws, yes if the Tories allow this international court especially for multinationals to become a thing then we may have a problem but right here right now we make our own laws and if the country wanted to take thee companies for what they have we not only have the law but we have the government and an entire country backing us up.

 

If the uk government say look you owe £Xxxbn in tax you pay or we take your assets and In future you pay your tax. Change the law so non doms aren't a thing and any company earning money in the UK pays its taxes in the UK, no employees are allowed to be paying tax in another country, if they want to they also have to pay UK tax on top. This is still our country and we still make the laws not the business leaders. Their lawyers don't have any laws to draw from when the laws are made by the people in charge and if they wanted to they could make them robust enough so that there was no way around them.

 

These are more or less the exact reasons multinationals don't go near many countries in the world, I think the UK benefits by not being on the list of countries that are considered politically unpredictable and risky. Agree fully on the non-doms, although I've never understood why if it has been around for centuries and always this tenuous not government, including some genuine left wing post war, has not done anything about it.

[flag of convenience]

Some of that is true. I worked fior RM and hated seeing it sold off so cheaply though wasnt it a Lib Democrat minister who was responsible for RM? And there was nothing to stop little guys from buying shares. I imagine RM shareholders include pension funds so we'all have an interest in RM doing well.

 

I don't like the rorts any more than you do but many companies register themselves in tax havens like Jersey.

 

Are you saying that ALL big corporations evade their tax responsiblities and HMRC is instructed by the Tories to leave them alone and concentrate on working class tax dodgers?

 

We have Labour govts too. Why don't they put a stop to the evil big corporations and their rorts?

 

And you continue to justify little guy fiddles on the basis that if big guys get away with it, it's only right that little guys do too.

 

I don't recall any response to my adhominem charge either.

 

Why doesn't Labour/ALP go after the big tax dodgers that create havoc in our society? Well take the propaganda and well directed spin outburst when ALP in Australia attempted to get miners to pay a fair share?

With so much of the media supporting big business on issues as thus, it is very difficult to create the narrative to carry the people along with such policy. Business are champions at defending their privileged position and government tends to shy away.

[flag of convenience]

Why bother with fares and tickets?

 

Get cars off the road and create a better urban ambiance. Free metro transport the way to go.

[Gbye grey sky]

I think you are vastly underestimating the HMRC really.

 

This is the British government, we create our laws, yes if the Tories allow this international court especially for multinationals to become a thing then we may have a problem but right here right now we make our own laws and if the country wanted to take thee companies for what they have we not only have the law but we have the government and an entire country backing us up.

 

If the uk government say look you owe £Xxxbn in tax you pay or we take your assets and In future you pay your tax. Change the law so non doms aren't a thing and any company earning money in the UK pays its taxes in the UK, no employees are allowed to be paying tax in another country, if they want to they also have to pay UK tax on top. This is still our country and we still make the laws not the business leaders. Their lawyers don't have any laws to draw from when the laws are made by the people in charge and if they wanted to they could make them robust enough so that there was no way around them.

 

Not really as I worked for the Inland Revenue/HMRC for 35 years so have a reasonable insight into their limitations especially when taking on the big guns.

 

All taxes have loopholes and often these are created deliberately in order to encourage business investment or whatever. I do not want to make this a partisan argument but Labour are much keener on complexity in the tax system than are the Tories. Where there is complexity there is ambiguity and arguments such as the 'intention' of legislation which take years to resolve in the courts.

 

I believe that every government in the world would love to secure a fairer tax take from the multi-nationals as it would be a far easier sell than benefit cuts; it really is not easy to achieve without a root and branch change in the tax system where there would be winners and losers across the board.

[MARYROSE02]

Why doesn't Labour/ALP go after the big tax dodgers that create havoc in our society? Well take the propaganda and well directed spin outburst when ALP in Australia attempted to get miners to pay a fair share?

With so much of the media supporting big business on issues as thus, it is very difficult to create the narrative to carry the people along with such policy. Business are champions at defending their privileged position and government tends to shy away.

 

You keep on about the 'right wing media' but Fairfax, The Guardian, and The ABC are all on the ALP's 'side'. If the ALP wins power, and can control the Senate, then they have a mandate to pass whatever laws they want, but usually they are more interested in looking after their union mates.

 

Yes, big corporations have the power to pay for the best legal firms to fight their corner, but neither the ATO, nor HMRC, are toothless.

 

I really must Google the amount of company tax paid in Australia and the UK, because if NO tax was paid by them, we really would be stuffed.

 

The truth is, capitalism, allied with democracy, is the best way!

[flag of convenience]

You keep on about the 'right wing media' but Fairfax, The Guardian, and The ABC are all on the ALP's 'side'. If the ALP wins power, and can control the Senate, then they have a mandate to pass whatever laws they want, but usually they are more interested in looking after their union mates.

 

Yes, big corporations have the power to pay for the best legal firms to fight their corner, but neither the ATO, nor HMRC, are toothless.

 

I really must Google the amount of company tax paid in Australia and the UK, because if NO tax was paid by them, we really would be stuffed.

 

The truth is, capitalism, allied with democracy, is the best way!

 

The truth being the longer term sustainability of capitalism if it continues on its present path. ABC has been shown in no uncertain terms to tread with care. The big boys are difficult to contain.

Better off to Google the rate of tax paid by big corporations on the profits they make rather than the sum of taxation paid.

[Quinkla]

You keep on about the 'right wing media' but Fairfax, The Guardian, and The ABC are all on the ALP's 'side'.

Fairfax and The Guardian do, indeed, support a loosely left-wing agenda. But they are more than outgunned by the Murdoch stable which also has TV channels at its disposal.

 

The ABC is not partisan, despite LNP assertions. They just criticise bad policy and bad government. Given that the current Government is LNP, the LNP feel got at. But when the ALP were in Government, the ABC seemed to fire plenty of salvos their way.

[Paul1Perth]

Saw him on the news a couple of nights ago. Never heard of him or seen him before and he certainly didn't look like leadership material. I know you shouldn't judge people like that but this is real life where it happens all the time.

[flag of convenience]

Saw him on the news a couple of nights ago. Never heard of him or seen him before and he certainly didn't look like leadership material. I know you shouldn't judge people like that but this is real life where it happens all the time.

 

After so long of PR executive types in the role, I find his low key style refreshing. Whether it will captivate the great unwashed public, I've no idea. Early signs though do look promising.

[Skyba]

After so long of PR executive types in the role, I find his low key style refreshing. Whether it will captivate the great unwashed public, I've no idea. Early signs though do look promising.

 

 

 

there was a poll the other day that had him winning with 54% of the vote and the next closest rival was yvette cooper with 26%. There was a Twitter poll taken on the last leg the other day with is obviously not the most unbiased poll but he won that with 84%

[bristolman]

there was a poll the other day that had him winning with 54% of the vote and the next closest rival was yvette cooper with 26%. There was a Twitter poll taken on the last leg the other day with is obviously not the most unbiased poll but he won that with 84%

 

I think that shows what a sorry state Labour is in, long may it continue.

[VERYSTORMY]

I hear now he wants to reopen the coal mines!!!

[bristolman]

I hear now he wants to reopen the coal mines!!!

 

He doesn't have a clue, it would be back to the bad old days of Labour in the unlikely event he ever got into Government. Fortunately the voting public is a little more savvy than they were in days gone by.

[The Fisheys]

Undoubtedly Comrade Corbyn would be the candidate of choice of the Tory Party.

This would be bad for the UK.

Democracy needs a strong, credible, nay plausible Opposition to function.

That would not be the case under Corbyn.

Beware.

[srg73]

Living in Brisbane and reading everything from a distance, I think the whole affair is really interesting. Really society and the Conservative party should be asking why this is happening with the Labour Party. There are obviously growing sections of society who are tired of the status quo and want change. Corbin gives people the chance to protest and be given a mouth piece. If you sat down seriously and in a controlled manner, I'm guessing most supporters of Corbin don't support all of his policies but do support the idea of change.

 

The Conservatives will be rubbing their hands and to be honest none of the Labour candidates are strong. The country does not need a Blair or even a Borris, what it needs is ideas and plans for the long term future and the ability to stand up for unpopular policies.....this is where Cameron has been good, putting up with the bad headlines not being influenced too much by them.

 

Best of luck Labour in which ever leader you choose, stick with them and maybe some interesting ideas and policies will develop. I do think it maybe a tough few years ahead though, as the saying goes, nobody likes change.

 

S

[Peccavi]

Corbyn will return the Labour Party to a Labour Party. Deal with it.

 

You don't like it, then he loses an election and the leader is changed to a conservative wannabe, making it much easier to vote for the real McCoy and not a cheap plastic 'Labour' substitute conservatives like Blair and his ilk.

 

.....so the Conservatives can't lose. Dinna fret yersel.

 

(To eliminate any doubt-I do back Corbyn to the bl..dy hilt).

 

One off post.

[Bungo]

Corbyn will return the Labour Party to a Labour Party. Deal with it.

 

You don't like it, then he loses an election and the leader is changed to a conservative wannabe, making it much easier to vote for the real McCoy and not a cheap plastic 'Labour' substitute conservatives like Blair and his ilk.

 

.....so the Conservatives can't lose. Dinna fret yersel.

 

(To eliminate any doubt-I do back Corbyn to the bl..dy hilt).

 

One off post.

 

And by and large that is how it will turn out. A trouncing in 2020 and then Labour will return to more central ground.

[Paul1Perth]

I hear now he wants to reopen the coal mines!!!

 

He'll have a big job on his hands there. All the people that might have been able to make it happen would have retired or died long ago. Never know VS, if he gets his way there might be loads of jobs for geos.:wink: