Jeremy Corbyn, thoughts?

[Harpodom]

I hear now he wants to reopen the coal mines!!!

I smell BS

[VERYSTORMY]

I smell BS

 

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/labour-leadership-contender-jeremy-corbyn-9817411

 

In a range of other press as well including some of the nationals

[Quinkla]

I hear now he wants to reopen the coal mines!!!

You can't reopen a coal mine once you've turned the pumps off. The mine fills with water and the cost of emptying it would be exorbitant and the structure of the mine would have been destabilised.

 

Even the NUM knew that and during their year long dispute, the one thing they consistently pleaded for was to not turn off the pumps.

[VERYSTORMY]

He'll have a big job on his hands there. All the people that might have been able to make it happen would have retired or died long ago. Never know VS, if he gets his way there might be loads of jobs for geos.:wink:

 

Loads of jobs for pump attendants - where I am working we have just reopened an underground mine. Tiny compared to UK coal mines. It has taken 2 years of pumping to dewater it

[Chortlepuss]

I am quite excited by Jeremy Corbyn, although don't know enough to be a follower yet. Anyone who had the potential to be a credible alternative to the Tories and Tory-Lite (AKA new Labour) can fuel badly needed alternative way of thinking. It's pretty scary that a large proportion of the electorate have been seduced into thinking there is no alternative to austerity, despite there being no evidence that it has worked anywhere. Focusing on punishing the very few people who are abusing the system and demonizing the Polish immigrants may win votes but it doesn't sort the UK's wider problems out. I don't see any evidence that privatization of the NHS is saving money or bringing benefits (worked for a long time in NHS). I think the way the young are being screwed over in terms of lack of opportunity, runaway housing costs, and the commercialization of university education in a race to the bottom is a disgrace. Yet somehow the message has been communicated that these changes are inevitable in order to 'balance the books'. Strong, radical alternative thinking is what we need with some decent policies to address the pressing need of ever increasing inequality. I actually don't give a stuff about leaders being from wealthy backgrounds if they are clever enough, understand priorities and needs of the whole population (not just supporting capitalists) and have sensible policies. I thought Tony Benn made a lot of sense and what drove him was huge intelligence but mostly integrity. Who cares if he was loaded? I think even Thatcher had more integrity than Cameron and the current shower. At least she didn't pretend that she wasn't screwing people over. OK if you've been poor you've had the life experience, but the poorer my mates are, the more likely they are to be raving Tories and blame immigrants, bludgers etc for the fact that houses are expensive and it costs 50 grand to get an education (of diminishing value now 80% of graduates get firsts or upper second). I've been pretty poor and now I'm comfortably off (Thanks to free university education for poor but bright people when I was younger). I think an awful lot of people of my age (50's) would wish that today's youngsters had the opportunities that they had, and I don't know why we should just assume that is not achievable given the right leadership and a drive to address inequality.

[VERYSTORMY]

You can't reopen a coal mine once you've turned the pumps off. The mine fills with water and the cost of emptying it would be exorbitant and the structure of the mine would have been destabilised.

 

Even the NUM knew that and during their year long dispute, the one thing they consistently pleaded for was to not turn off the pumps.

 

Of course - that is why I commented. You can pump it out, but the costs of pumping would outweigh massively the value of the resource. Couple that with the fact the majority of the coal is low quality.

 

The mines were sub economic before they closed - the reason they closed was nothing to do directly with Thatcher, she simply refused further subsidies.

[Quinkla]

The mines were sub economic before they closed - the reason they closed was nothing to do directly with Thatcher, she simply refused further subsidies.

The NUM claimed that they had no objection to closing pits that were genuinely uneconomical but that viable pits were being lumped into the proposed list of closures. They argue that this was a battle based on political grounds (principally because the previous miners' strike had brought down the Heath government) and the Tories wanted to punish the NUM and its members. This is borne out by the Nottinghamshire mines which, as soon as they declared independence from the NUM (setting up the rival UDM) were suddenly all viable.

[flag of convenience]

The NUM claimed that they had no objection to closing pits that were genuinely uneconomical but that viable pits were being lumped into the proposed list of closures. They argue that this was a battle based on political grounds (principally because the previous miners' strike had brought down the Heath government) and the Tories wanted to punish the NUM and its members. This is borne out by the Nottinghamshire mines which, as soon as they declared independence from the NUM (setting up the rival UDM) were suddenly all viable.

 

Yes it was far more than a pure economic measure. It was more ideology and Maggies determination to frame herself as tough. Possibly a little to show her least like Tory, Teddy Heath how it could have been done as well.

[VERYSTORMY]

The NUM claimed that they had no objection to closing pits that were genuinely uneconomical but that viable pits were being lumped into the proposed list of closures. They argue that this was a battle based on political grounds (principally because the previous miners' strike had brought down the Heath government) and the Tories wanted to punish the NUM and its members. This is borne out by the Nottinghamshire mines which, as soon as they declared independence from the NUM (setting up the rival UDM) were suddenly all viable.

 

I think it is clear there was "some" political element. But only in as far as the government were willing to take a hard line and break the unions down.

 

The Nottingham mines stayed open because Nottingham mines never went on strike. The county was and still is famous for that. There are still big debates as to why. But the why is for the academics. This is what saved them. Not unlike today - including in Australia - individual mines have contracts with individual customers. This is also what killed the other mines.

 

In 1984, 6 mines which were costing significant money to subsidise were flagged for closure. The subsidy was over 3 pounds per tonne and international coal, including shipping costs was 25% cheaper. In response to the planned closures the miners went on strike. The problem with this is that many of the mines customers were able to tear up contracts and source coal from elsewhere on the international market. So, now, instead of only 6 pits being sub economic, lots of pits were as they no longer had customers to take sufficient tonnages. Mining is all about tonnage - mines are designed from day one to produce a certain amount of tonnes per day to make the economics work best - in the industry we call it optimisation. Now, the economics were out for lots and little hope of getting it back without huge subsidy.

 

Many of their customers were actually very pleased about the strike as it allowed them to get out of contracts that were now very unfavourable.

 

What has always annoyed me about the entire episode is that the miners and the NUM were warned of this - it was always clear how the economics would pan out across the industry if they went on strike

[Gbye grey sky]

Yes it was far more than a pure economic measure. It was more ideology and Maggies determination to frame herself as tough. Possibly a little to show her least like Tory, Teddy Heath how it could have been done as well.

I love the way that everyone assumes it was Maggie and the Tories taking on the miners when it was more like Arthur Scargill and his union cronies trying to topple a democratically elected government. The Trade Union leaders thought that they should run the country despite being unelected and heading up seriously undemocratic organisations full of thugs and bully boys. You can rewrite history if you want but the unions then were run by some of the nastiest people for their own ends.

[amibovered]

The Conservatives must be pinching themselves, the Lib Dems are ruined, Labour are about to make themselves unelectable, it's a Tory wet dream.

[Quinkla]

The Conservatives must be pinching themselves, the Lib Dems are ruined, Labour are about to make themselves unelectable, it's a Tory wet dream.

The only cloud on the horizon is the growing antipathy towards the union in Scotland. If Scotland secedes from the Union, that's England's bank balance buggered up well and truly.

[Harpodom]

The Conservatives must be pinching themselves, the Lib Dems are ruined, Labour are about to make themselves unelectable, it's a Tory wet dream.

This seems to be the received wisdom, but it doesn't fit with the enthusiasm being shown by the electorate at a real alternative to the tory b'stards.

 

I'm sure the Murdocratic MSM are doing their utmost to monster Corbachev.

[Guest51810]

The only cloud on the horizon is the growing antipathy towards the union in Scotland. If Scotland secedes from the Union, that's England's bank balance buggered up well and truly.

 

Noooo we're all delighted about this Tory wet dream

[flag of convenience]

The Conservatives must be pinching themselves, the Lib Dems are ruined, Labour are about to make themselves unelectable, it's a Tory wet dream.

 

There again it could as likely be a combination of forces running a scare campaign against Corbyn, who for the first time in a long time offers a clear alternative. The issue of getting enough of Middle England on board may well prove over whelming. But UK does not need more of the same. Scotland has made that clear.

[flag of convenience]

Noooo we're all delighted about this Tory wet dream

 

Especially if the dream turns into a Tory nightmare and real change south of the border is voted in.

[amibovered]

This seems to be the received wisdom, but it doesn't fit with the enthusiasm being shown by the electorate at a real alternative to the tory b'stards.

 

I'm sure the Murdocratic MSM are doing their utmost to monster Corbachev.

 

I can't say I'm seeing much enthusiasm amongst the electorate, only a small but vocal part of it, I'll be very interested in the polls in a year or so, interesting times.

[Harpodom]

I can't say I'm seeing much enthusiasm amongst the electorate, only a small but vocal part of it, I'll be very interested in the polls in a year or so, interesting times.

Well, you are there I suppose, I only read the 'chatter' on FB and stuff.

 

I do get the impression that voters are sick of Labour as it now is, thanks to Blair. As Mozza rightly said, 'The English are sick to death of Labour and tories....'

[amibovered]

Well, you are there I suppose, I only read the 'chatter' on FB and stuff.

 

I do get the impression that voters are sick of Labour as it now is, thanks to Blair. As Mozza rightly said, 'The English are sick to death of Labour and tories....'

 

Here, pick the bones out of this

http://comres.co.uk/polls/sunday-mirror-independent-on-sunday-august-poll/

 

I'd be interested what folk think about the findings

my findings are it gave me a headache and I need a lie down.

[flag of convenience]

I love the way that everyone assumes it was Maggie and the Tories taking on the miners when it was more like Arthur Scargill and his union cronies trying to topple a democratically elected government. The Trade Union leaders thought that they should run the country despite being unelected and heading up seriously undemocratic organisations full of thugs and bully boys. You can rewrite history if you want but the unions then were run by some of the nastiest people for their own ends.

 

Nasties on both sides and not rewriting history but it was an ideological struggle of epic proportions. The union leaders sense of timing was absolutely absurd if their desire was to bring down the government.

[Harpodom]

Here, pick the bones out of this

http://comres.co.uk/polls/sunday-mirror-independent-on-sunday-august-poll/

 

I'd be interested what folk think about the findings

my findings are it gave me a headache and I need a lie down.

 

yeah, dunno. I do fear for his sanity if he does become leader. Methinks he'll be torn limb from limb, metaphorically speaking, by the right wing press

[amibovered]

yeah, dunno. I do fear for his sanity if he does become leader. Methinks he'll be torn limb from limb, metaphorically speaking, by the right wing press

 

Agreed, and I've a feeling the Labour party could turn on itself in the style of Rudd and Gillard.

[Guest51810]

He's quite tough to continue I think! Don't think he'll have a easy time if he wins. I don't know much about the other ones.

 

We we kezia dugdale as ours now :dull:

[Gbye grey sky]

Nasties on both sides and not rewriting history but it was an ideological struggle of epic proportions. The union leaders sense of timing was absolutely absurd if their desire was to bring down the government.

 

They had brought down governments of Heath and Callaghan in the 70s. I suspect that they would have succeeded in bringing down Thatcher too had the Argies not invaded the Falklands. The resulting conflict swept Thatcher back into No10. Too many posters on here are too young to know or realise just how nasty much of the trade union movement had become by the 1980s and received wisdom was that to take on these thugs was political suicide. As someone around at that time and involved in the Trades Unions in the 1970s and 1980s I recognise the important contribution Thatcher made in this regard. That honest, hard-working people suffered greatly cannot be doubted but they were seriously misled by the thugs and demagogues who controlled the Union Movement with an iron fist.

[Quinkla]

They had brought down governments of Heath and Callaghan in the 70s. I suspect that they would have succeeded in bringing down Thatcher too had the Argies not invaded the Falklands. The resulting conflict swept Thatcher back into No10.

In fact, the Falklands War was in 1982. It enabled the Tories to win the 1983 General election with a landslide. The Miners' Strike ran from 1984-85. So your sequencing and cause/effect is not right.

 

I agree that the timing of the strike would have been odd if it had been of the NUM's choosing and intended to bring down the Government. Instead, the timing was the choice of the Government, looking to destroy the miners in the wake of a resounding re-election to power and with enormous stock-piles of coal to ensure that the strike could continue indefinitely without causing any supply shortage.