have you left Oz because of your job?

[Wellers and Whitehead]

Would you/have you, returned to the UK (left Australia) partly because your chosen career is very different in Australia? Can't get a job you have trained to do? you are losing your skills/knowledge because things are not as progressive in your career in Oz?

[fifi69]

Didnt come to Oz to enhance my career but struggling to get a decent permanent post. Have had two temp jobs and im thankful they were only temp cos i would have ended up leaving anyway.

 

I may have just been unlucky but hated the macho style of leadership and found the bullying culture totally unacceptable.

 

Also seems to be if there is a quick, efficient way of doing a task they have chosen to take the double up on work and make life more difficult route.

 

It was the norm to expect staff to work 10 hour days with only one 20min break

[VERYSTORMY]

Have just applied for a job in northern Europe. Will, if I get it, continue living in Oz and FIFO. My industry is on it's knees here now so not a lot of choice.

[Rupert]

MY OHs occupation is niche and is not so developed here. If there were no opportunities at all, then we would have to consider returning. As it is we are restricted to living in Sydney, there is nothing anywhere else.

[nicolac34]

My OH has been out of work 4 months now with nothing in the pipeline in Perth. We are going to look at Sydney or Melbourne after the New Year to see if anything comes up there, but if it goes another 6 months we'll have to seriously consider moving back to the UK.

[northshorepom]

When we go back it will probably be because of work. Partly because the market is too small here, hence more opportunities elsewhere, and partly because staying here too long carries a risk of falling behind in terms of skills

 

I work in developing and delivering major building & infrastructure projects - sometimes on the financing/development/client side, and sometimes on the delivery (design, construction, commissioning) as a project director. Coming out here, I was prepared for a smaller market but wasn't expecting one quite this small. There's just not the weight or momentum of development which is surprising given population increases and economic growth. There's much more work in London at the moment, for example - because it is at the heart of an economy of 60 million people and is one of the main centres of an economic region of 500 million people and it shows.

 

London's financial services sector and the procurement models adopted by the public sector in partnership with the private sector is also much more sophisticated. This is the major "falling behind" risk for me as I fear if I stay here too long, I will lose touch with the pace of change elsewhere. Practices here are somewhere between 10 and 15 years behind in most areas. Public sector clients here are still all about trying to dump risk into the private sector without appreciating the real costs of doing that (you end up spending more often, partly in increased prices and partly in litigation and dispute resolution afterwards)

 

On the delivery side, practices are also in most cases "backward" if you like to varying levels. Project management practices particularly but also safety management, assurance, design management. Environmental management, OTOH, is ahead here, certainly in NSW. The biggest problem facing the construction/development industry here (and possibly industry more widely) though, is productivity, especially cost productivity. Some of this is tied up in high exchange rates but more of it is about wage levels, waste in business processes and practices which mean you get not much more than half of what you might expect per manday in many trades.

 

Like many industries/sectors, construction here is quite oligopolistic (there are 2 big players who have more than 80% of the market wrapped up). This lack of competition is probably what has held back innovation, and the clients think they are being ripped off because in international terms they pay way too much for the output. The big 2 charge about 50% more gross margin than I'm used to internationally, but they still both lose money on straight construction - their overheads are too high, they get too much risk dumped on them by clients who think they are being robbed, and most of all their cost productivity, a function of output and wages, is really poor. Almost all the big construction companies only make money overall because mining contracting - a great low risk cashflow generator - subsidises the losses they take on some of their big jobs. It's not uncommmon here for construction companies turning over $5bn or so a year to take hits of $200m on ONE job - anywhere else in the world that level of loss would be a company breaker, your typical UK construction co. with revenue at that level only makes about $100m in operating profit in a year so one such hit would wipe out 2 years profits. It's a rum old deal

 

I enjoy my life here, it's easy to shine, and I'm well paid. In my company I'm at a level where I can make a difference in some of the above, but occasionally it's like pushing water uphill and it would be easy to get frustrated. I do prefer working in a larger market and in a more modern/innovative market, I have to say - I just love the business energy and dynamism it engenders. There are a couple of prospects that would keep me here long term but I'm not ready to put my feet up and take the cash towards retirement just yet and I fear if I stay here too long I would have burnt my bridges for getting back. Fortunately the UK market hasn't wised up yet to how modern the market over here isn't....partly because there are two or three big Aussie players that also operate in London who are well known over there for being innovative. Weirdly the parent companies over here in all respects, aren't. Can't work that one out

[Wellers and Whitehead]

Didnt come to Oz to enhance my career but struggling to get a decent permanent post. Have had two temp jobs and im thankful they were only temp cos i would have ended up leaving anyway.

 

I may have just been unlucky but hated the macho style of leadership and found the bullying culture totally unacceptable.

 

Also seems to be if there is a quick, efficient way of doing a task they have chosen to take the double up on work and make life more difficult ro.

 

It was the norm to expect staff to work 10 hour days with only one 20min break

Sooooooo very true! Micro management at its best in Australia aswell! is a bugger when you know more than your boss!! :-(

[Parley]

Have just applied for a job in northern Europe. Will, if I get it, continue living in Oz and FIFO. My industry is on it's knees here now so not a lot of choice.

 

That would be one heck of a commute.

[Paul1Perth]

Didnt come to Oz to enhance my career but struggling to get a decent permanent post. Have had two temp jobs and im thankful they were only temp cos i would have ended up leaving anyway.

 

I may have just been unlucky but hated the macho style of leadership and found the bullying culture totally unacceptable.

 

Also seems to be if there is a quick, efficient way of doing a task they have chosen to take the double up on work and make life more difficult route.

 

It was the norm to expect staff to work 10 hour days with only one 20min break

 

Jeez what job is that? Wouldn't go near it.

 

Didn't come to Aus thinking about what I would do for a job or enhance my career or anything like it tbh. We both gave up good jobs to come out here with no jobs to come to. We came for the weather, the lifestyle, the beaches. As far as work was concerned just thought I'll get something. Always did in the UK and couldn't see why it would be any different here. Was out of work 5 months when we first arrived but my missus is a nurse so got a job in a week. Since getting the first one never been out of work since.

 

Never been expected to work weekends on a regular basis but have done when I was project managing or away on site and stuff needed doing to get home earlier.

 

Not found work to be much different from the UK. Might just be the IT game but the people at our place are great. No-one checks what time anyone gets in or has for lunch or leaves. We have work to do and as long as it gets done everything's sweet. Some of the younger software engineers are big on gaming and stay up late at night. They don't come in till 11:00 ish sometimes but stay late if there is work to do.

 

At our main offices in Sydney the atmosphere there is totally different though. People don't seem to have so much of a laugh, it's got a feeling of most people being a bit too big for their boots and over-important. Maybe it's because it's a much bigger setup in a bigger City, where people seem to be a lot more competitive.

[Chortlepuss]

I'll probably be heading back to UK for a lot of reasons, but one is that I miss professional ICT environments. I am scraping around for any roles at the moment just to pay bills, but would prefer to be in a longer term role, with the ability to plan for holidays etc... I am frequently told that I am unsuitable for roles because I 'know more than the recruiter' which shouldn't be a problem (I'm not overly ambitious), but is a constraint in Brisbane where those in charge tend to have limited (or unrelated) experience and seem threatened by exerienced applicants. For some reason, ex services staff are favoured for ICT management roles, and with the nepostistic culture here, all adds up to a work environment where the bar is low, and command and control management style prevails. Hoping to give Melbourne a go before I return home - I've heard it's a lot more professional there, and initial contact with recruitment agencies is much more positive than I've experienced up here!

[Sara8]

Didnt come to Oz to enhance my career but struggling to get a decent permanent post. Have had two temp jobs and im thankful they were only temp cos i would have ended up leaving anyway.

 

I may have just been unlucky but hated the macho style of leadership and found the bullying culture totally unacceptable.

 

Also seems to be if there is a quick, efficient way of doing a task they have chosen to take the double up on work and make life more difficult route.

 

It was the norm to expect staff to work 10 hour days with only one 20min break

 

My hubby has experienced this too. The people he is working with atm are very sarcastic & think they can boss him around & talk down to him. Coming from a Military background he is finding it difficult to bite his tongue! However the boss himself is actually very good to him just the others who think they are superior to him which they are not. Luckily this is just part time work for the time being - need the pennies - he will be leaving as soon as he finds something more permenant! Oh he has been working stupid hours too inc weekends, hardly seen him not what we came here for was bad enough when he was in the forces!

[flag of convenience]

Lot of incompetance and bullying in certain sectors. If I was concerned for a career I wouldn't be in Australia. I'm beyond that. Accepted an out of court payout from my last position after after refusing to accept certain tactics. But then although stressfull I rather enjoy a battle and fought the organisation and won on my terms with only minimal compromise.

 

They're even not very good at defending their side.

[MARYROSE02]

It's funny how we all have different experiences. I was constantly bullied and harrassed by the yokels I worked with in the 1970's and I was terrified it would be so much worse in OZ, but it was so much better! I joke about it but it really was as if all the Aussie blokes cared about was whether I liked cricket, footie and beer, and that was enough for them.

 

I did go back to the UK because of work, indirectly, as I was made redundant and took the opportunity to go back and see my parents for an extended trip.

 

In the sort of work I do, data entry, clerical, it does not matter where I do it in the world, it's exactly the same. I did almost the same job for Australia Post last Xmas as I'd done with Royal Mail.

 

I've just about finished a six month contract with the ATO, and I never saw even a hint of bullying, harrassment there.

[VERYSTORMY]

That would be one heck of a commute.

 

Actually not too bad compared to when I was in Congo. A days travel, about 3 weeks on site, a couple of weeks off, a month working in Perth. Then repeat.

[VERYSTORMY]

Not seen bullying, though I am not the type who would easily be bullied. But do see lots of amazing incompetence. Also lots of nepotism in the extreme. Also a lot of top heavy management.

[Petals]

I think that those that say work is more advanced in Uk have to realise that the area of UK is slightly smaller than Victoria so the advantage is there for getting places quickly, its also a lot older country. The biggest problem I see with Australia is our State System, we are such a small population and then we come even smaller when the population is split up into states. Licences do not cross the border, education is different. Even if you serve liquor in Victoria you need a different certificate in NSW etc etc. This holds the nation back.

 

However that said the States aint going to disappear and of course being separate the governments will never adopt another governments idea.

 

My friend's oh has been working on a national education curriculum for a long while now but wonder how its going to work in the end.

 

So when it comes to building different rules, hairdressing different licence etc.

 

When we came to Aus my oh took a big pay cut but we wanted to live here and that was our main reason for coming so we did not regret the loss of cash. He was still well paid but not film star like he had been on.

[northshorepom]

Problem with that argument is that much of the same - young country, huge land area, different states with different legislation and regulation - applies to the US, and they are extremely innovative - perhaps consistently the most innovative country in the world economically, it is one of the reasons it grew so powerful in the first place and also one of the reasons they tend to be the first out of big recessions (OK there are loads of other reasons too). IME of working in the US, everyone's looking for a better mousetrap and that's what makes their economy so dynamic.

 

I think the issues in MY industry (I'm trying not to generalise about the nation as a whole, but I have to generalise to some extent about the part of it I see a lot of, ie my industry) are related to size of market, lack of competition, and corporate culture - not size of country, age, or legislatures

[Wellers and Whitehead]

Not seen bullying, though I am not the type who would easily be bullied. But do see lots of amazing incompetence. Also lots of nepotism in the extreme. Also a lot of top heavy management.

I've seen subtle and not so subtle manipulation/bullying from management/peers to colleagues. In some cases (most in fact) its a lack of experience and skills to be able to deal with staff.

[lozzachino]

I think e points about poor management and or bullying could apply anywhere in the world. Its not going to be worse or better just because you have moved countries, i have lived in south africa and england and have great bosses and terrible bosses in both countries.

 

I recently had a manager who had no idea what i did but told me i had had no prospects to ever progress in my role or in the dept and they wouldnt let me move to another dept as i was too valuable! Also not allowed to do any development as i only work part time. Last month a new manager took over and she knows what i do, and is determined that i should progress to the next pay grade above my current one by the end of next year. She wants me to develop and thinks experience around the other depts in the company would be valuable. so chalk and cheese from one month to the next.

[Wellers and Whitehead]

I think e points about poor management and or bullying could apply anywhere in the world. Its not going to be worse or better just because you have moved countries, i have lived in south africa and england and have great bosses and terrible bosses in both countries.

 

I recently had a manager who had no idea what i did but told me i had had no prospects to ever progress in my role or in the dept and they wouldnt let me move to another dept as i was too valuable! Also not allowed to do any development as i only work part time. Last month a new manager took over and she knows what i do, and is determined that i should progress to the next pay grade above my current one by the end of next year. She wants me to develop and thinks experience around the other depts in the company would be valuable. so chalk and cheese from one month to the next.

 

We will agree to disagree then, on the poor management /bullying can't be better or worse in different countries. Prior to moving to Oz I read lots of posts on here about bullying/micro management in my line of work. I didn't pay too much attention to it, partly because I didn't want to believe it but also because I didn't think it could happen as often/as much as people reported.

I can understand it now I have seen it for myself.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Wellers and Whitehead

[hardtochase]

In my first 3 months here, I definitely thought it would have to be short term, due to my job. But now I've fallen in love with the country/lifestyle and come to terms with the fact I am going to have to compromise on the job front. I definitely understand why people would want to leave though.

[Jackinabox]

Would you/have you, returned to the UK (left Australia) partly because your chosen career is very different in Australia? Can't get a job you have trained to do? you are losing your skills/knowledge because things are not as progressive in your career in Oz?

 

I suppose it depends entirely on what you can take and what area of expertise and employment you are in.

 

In my experience it is certainly a ‘do it our way’ thing…………which in my experience here isn’t always the correct way, right way and by no means the safest or cost effective way……despite the bluster of how good they are at what they do and the ‘we do it proper’ mentality. Often referred too as ‘the Aussieway, like it or lump it’ or Fit In or F Off’ mentality. With tongue in cheek and a role of the eyes I’m cool with that as I am ‘coaching them as they bluster their superiority’ .....and the money does compensate. Got used to the feeling of being treated/viewed as ‘being from another planet’ and ‘being born yesterday’ within a few weeks of landing and certainly after seeing for myself what the ‘standard’is actually like. My old trainer would say ‘could do better’.

 

If you are a tradie out here then expect to jump through hoops and spend some cash just to get ‘recognised’. TRA and Visa application is one thing…….Aussie employer mentality and legislative bureaucracy for a tradie once you are here is another. Have met plenty of British ‘tradies’who are aghast at what they have to do once here……often just to get a rung on the ‘dodgy’ ladder. Not surprised that some give up and go home. The lure and spending money and time getting here only to be met with the reality of the shortage of jobs, the 'standard' set and the “We don’t actually recognise your UK qualifications and 20+ years of experience so you will need to spend $1,000’s of dollars upgrading to our system and then wait for 5 months whilst we process your accreditations and we’ll see what we can do’. Hardly the ‘Australia needs you’ image.

 

Training/working environment in my area is about 15 years behind, the standard is often pathetic and unsafe yet the Aussie way is the only way. The Aussies are slowly catching up and the more Brits that are here teaching them the ways of the world the better. Although not intended, I know that those words will offend a few,…………. join the queue (have offended quite a few beefy and heavily tattooed tradies since being here due to the ‘standard’they hold so dearly), but reality sucks and they usually leave me much better for it.

 

Mining is said to be the backbone of the Australian economy and wealth yet the mining industry is currently on its belly, despite what the media or the mining sycophants say. Verystormy is getting out for a very good reason. It’s a vicious cycle at the moment. Those who left suburbia and the city for the money in the mines are now coming back to suburbia and the city due to the mines closing or slimming. They are predominantly Aussies. They have the local/family/employer contacts.They effectively have priority. They are moving back into the jobs that we Brits have been lured to. I know.......i am training many of them.

 

Canada is hiring though.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Jackinabox

[lozzachino]

Perhaps wellers you were just lucky with your uk bosses? I have had some particularly horrendous ones here and have just been speaking with family in Ireland having very similar issues, so from my experience its down to the people not the place. But will agree to disagree if you have found different, esp since we havent even arrived in oz yet so definitely cant comment on what its like there yet, but i will let u know!!

[Wellers and Whitehead]

Perhaps wellers you were just lucky with your uk bosses? I have had some particularly horrendous ones here and have just been speaking with family in Ireland having very similar issues, so from my experience its down to the people not the place. But will agree to disagree if you have found different, esp since we havent even arrived in oz yet so definitely cant comment on what its like there yet, but i will let u know!!

 

Perhaps I was lucky in the UK?? However nobody I know has had issues with bullying in the workplace by peers

/management, however in Oz every place I have worked has on some level had micro management (all jobs actually) /bullying etc. one place the director didn't trust his staff including his long serving staff running his business. He spied on, bullied, intimidated his staff, all of whom were very unhappy but the older people who had worked for him for years put up with his behaviour...until they handed in notice. He lost many staff by his behaviour, then when the people running the service left so did some of his customers.

Another job, due to lack of skills, wisdom, experience in the management many people have resigned due to serious micro management/lack of trust/ bullying tactics..and on it goes!

be interesting when you do come to Oz, how you find it.

[fish.01]

It is very hard to compare in my industry imo. The Brisbane IT company I work for is far more advanced than the jobs I had in the UK but that doesn't prove anything imo. You will always get some who are downgraded in the move. To get a country wide picture you would need to count up everyone and then do the same with people moving from Australia to the UK (heard lots of complaints that way as well) and see if the percentage is different. Like always it will often depend on the industry and the city you moved from and to.

Edited December 6, 2012 by fish.01