Children - what happens if you/your partner decide to go home.....

[whopperdaisy]

Pommyoz, you hit on something very important... the effect this has on your family back in the UK. This situation is very hard on my family, not only because they want to be a part of my child's life but also because they are very limited in the help they can offer, it distresses them to know I am stuck here against my wishes, having to deal with and leave my child with someone who, well, that's another story but it is not good. Even if your child has been harmed, the Australian courts do not necessarily believe it is in your child's best interests to leave with you. Far from it.

[Guest guest22466]

Pommyoz, you hit on something very important... the effect this has on your family back in the UK. This situation is very hard on my family, not only because they want to be a part of my child's life but also because they are very limited in the help they can offer, it distresses them to know I am stuck here against my wishes, having to deal with and leave my child with someone who, well, that's another story but it is not good. Even if your child has been harmed, the Australian courts do not necessarily believe it is in your child's best interests to leave with you. Far from it.

 

Whopperdaisy ....love the username by the way... Yes the courts did not believe me either and you have to have real evidence which is very hard to get. My ex said in court that he would not go back to the UK to visit his son if he was returned.....however I said I would stay with my son regardless of which country I lived in ....was not hard for the judge really..........

 

My parents are 74 and 84 and not in good health ...dad is now unable to talk so I cant even chat on the phone to hime anymore and all that puts a huge strain on top of what you have to deal with here on your own but will stop the wingeing pom now and have to get on with it ..........FOR NOW lol

 

Keep strong whopperdaisy and take care...

[2tigers]

This thread pulls me back again and again, I hate reading about people in this situation, yet feel I need to give my experience on here in case it helps someone.

 

For me, when I was asked if I would stay in the country with my children, I was that depressed my reaction was being afraid I would hurt myself. I was that depressed I often had suicidal thoughts. The Psychiatrist who took our case reported that my thoughts were to be taken seriously. I truly believe that if I had not been able to come home I would have lost my children completely, I would either not be here at all, or I would be in a ward to protect myself. That is such a scary thought, but the situation I was in was out of control.

 

I've been home over a year now, I am such a different person. I'm stronger and in a position where depression was a distant memory.

 

I feel so deeply for those stuck in Australia against their will, keep strong. I hope that one day Immigration will pop in a little leaflet explaining what would happen if it didn't work out. Thats all it would take to make people aware, some kind of check list, encouraging people to discuss things before the move.

[Guest guest22466]

This thread pulls me back again and again, I hate reading about people in this situation, yet feel I need to give my experience on here in case it helps someone.

 

For me, when I was asked if I would stay in the country with my children, I was that depressed my reaction was being afraid I would hurt myself. I was that depressed I often had suicidal thoughts. The Psychiatrist who took our case reported that my thoughts were to be taken seriously. I truly believe that if I had not been able to come home I would have lost my children completely, I would either not be here at all, or I would be in a ward to protect myself. That is such a scary thought, but the situation I was in was out of control.

 

I've been home over a year now, I am such a different person. I'm stronger and in a position where depression was a distant memory.

 

I feel so deeply for those stuck in Australia against their will, keep strong. I hope that one day Immigration will pop in a little leaflet explaining what would happen if it didn't work out. Thats all it would take to make people aware, some kind of check list, encouraging people to discuss things before the move.

 

 

2tigers your so right until you have gone through all this no one can really understand until your in that situation. I was depressed too and can understand how you can get further down that spiral there were days if im honest when I could have just got on a plane and got away from it all without my son but then I snapped back into it ...all from talks from family members and medication. Your thoughts and actions when put in this situation is beyond imagination you feel so lost and life seems totally out of your control. Getting hit from all sides is how I felt and the day to day struggle was sometimes just too much to bare on your own.

 

Yes I have felt stronger over the years but only for survival purposes. Do I still have days when I want to go home yes every day but this is how it is for NOW. I would love to see that leaflet in the migration forms but I cant see it happening somehow its not a great advertisement for migration.

 

It is good to know of outcomes like yourself but it is sad that parents and children have to suffer in the process when maybe if the information of the Hague Convention Laws would have been presented to us at the time of migration then we too could have put legal documents in place to help of our return home. I still had a house in the UK as we had agreed if oz it was not for us we would return but that promise was broken and only verbal not legal.

 

I know what you mean about posting on here you want to forget the situation but at the same time want to warn others of what could be.

 

Take Care 2 tigers glad to see all is well.....im sure this post will help someone make better choices xx

[whopperdaisy]

I think this would make such a good story for one or other of the UK magazines or better newspapers. If they wrote about this situation existing, would you be willing to talk with a writer?

[Guest guest22466]

I think this would make such a good story for one or other of the UK magazines or better newspapers. If they wrote about this situation existing, would you be willing to talk with a writer?

 

I would be willing to talk to a writer but not put my name to it due to the ex and his family here giving us more grief than we already get here in OZ. I think if my ex found that I had helped with the article (as he has still lotsof family in the UK ) it would put a strain on the relationship when my son went to his fathers. I can handle my ex but my son can not...well not at his age right now. Yes I would be willing to help with making people aware but on a no names situation. Knowing my ex and his family they would have me back in court for the article......and cant afford that right now lol just getting over the relocation fees of $60,000...but yes would like to help for sure.

[2tigers]

I think this would make such a good story for one or other of the UK magazines or better newspapers. If they wrote about this situation existing, would you be willing to talk with a writer?

 

I'd definitely consider giving my story but not our names.

 

It really should be exposed more, its as though they don't want people to know about what could happen, only the good is advertised.

[whopperdaisy]

That is a part of the problem with it not getting publicised isn't it? It is so hard to talk openly when you, or worse, your children, are likely to be penalised for it. I will have a think about what publications this might suit.

[Guest Guest31881]

That is a part of the problem with it not getting publicised isn't it? It is so hard to talk openly when you, or worse, your children, are likely to be penalised for it. I will have a think about what publications this might suit.

 

 

If you tell your story for Publication, the names will be changed, also ensure you keep the copywrite for the story, this ensures you know where it is being published or if it is sold on to another magazine. remember if you allow publication it could be sold on years later, if you retain the copywrite then you still get paid for story and you know where it is being published.

 

I know money may not be the prime reason for having story published. but it can be useful if you are in a legal fight, now or in the future.

[Guest guest22466]

That is a part of the problem with it not getting publicised isn't it? It is so hard to talk openly when you, or worse, your children, are likely to be penalised for it. I will have a think about what publications this might suit.

 

I would like to see the Hague Convention Laws be publicised on migration web sites and migration forms all over the world as this is not just a situation for moving from the UK to Australia but is present in many countries. Australia is so far away from the UK so it does make it harder to even return home for holidays (eg expensive fares...long flights with children and elders ) and for visitors to come and see you ..maybe that is why the impact seems bigger moving from the UK to Australia.

 

A lady on here did have our situations publicised in an Australian paper a few years back it was in one of the major papers too but nothing seemed to come of it. As you say maybe in a major paper back in the UK ...before you get here....or four corners tv something like that....i dont know .....

 

Better still a hand book that goes into the migration papers BEFORE you apply would be the best at hitting the people that really NEED to know about the Hague Convention Laws and what it all really means in reality not just on paper or in the courts of the UK and Australia.

 

Call me stupid but I had no idea of the impact of moving to another country with children and if things did not work out here and what it would do to our family and our lives...it has been huge.........as in regrets you will never imagine unitil placed in these situations yourself.

[Guest china]

Wow I have just read the whole of this thread - I am so sorry for al the people who have been affected by this heartbreaking situation. I am applying for PR at the moment, and don't have children yet, but iti is definitely on the cards for the future. This has really given me pase for thought, and down teh line (like if we ever get a visa!) it is definitely something we will eb discussing with each other and a lawyer.

 

Thank you for sharing your stories. Stay strong. x

[Guest guest22466]

Wow I have just read the whole of this thread - I am so sorry for al the people who have been affected by this heartbreaking situation. I am applying for PR at the moment, and don't have children yet, but iti is definitely on the cards for the future. This has really given me pase for thought, and down teh line (like if we ever get a visa!) it is definitely something we will eb discussing with each other and a lawyer.

 

Thank you for sharing your stories. Stay strong. x

 

Yes china do everything you can to ensure that you have a legal document that states you both agree that if things dont work out here in Australia for whatever reasons you will be allowed to return home with your children for help and support .It is not set in stone if this document will help due to the Hague Convention Laws but I see the document as an agreement in writing...our agreement was verbal and we still had our house in the UK but that didnt make any difference once in court here and we had only been in Australia 18 months.

 

When you get to court it does depend on the judge on that day and how good your sols and barrister is? Bring lots of money with you too if you want to fight it in the courts like $60,000 per person and be prepared to lose your home, money,freedom, family and friends all in one swoop. We were all born in the UK and all have more family in the UK than Australia that means nothing .......in the eyes of the court the child has the right to see both parents and they dont like to see the child taken away from either parent which you can understand.

 

The other parent in my case was not seen to continue his contact with his son if I was returned home to the UK and he did not want to return to the Uk as he was so much better off money wise here and I can tell you we are so much worse off for living here on our own. He laughs in our faces with his child support payments he got the house in Australia to live in while my son and I now rent . I cannot move out of Sydney which is one expensive place to live.

 

I came on a temp visa too at first and I was then told that I had to get a perm visa otherwise I would return home without my son as my son was a citizen through his father being both a uk and Australian citizen.

 

My sons father has had me in and out of court so many times that last time the judge told him if he does not stop doing this to me he will allow me to take my son back home to the UK this has been going on for 7 years and he still continues to this day.Its a nightmare and his family over here fuel his fire while he enjoys payings $6 per week in childsupport payments while being self employed cash in hand jobs, rent his home out and lives with his mum rent free...its a joke. I earn more than he does. My sons father has reduced his time with his son to just 4 days a month and complains that he has to pick him up for contact......

 

So yes if things go good its great but they dont it can ruin lives forever,not just yours and your childrens but your family back home who want to help you but cant.

 

They dont tell you all this when you apply to migrate they just think people know and I for sure didnt know all this when I came even on a temp visa.

 

I hope things DO NOT go pear shaped for anyone applying to migrate as it is a nightmare and would not wish this situation on anyone. A leaflet on the Hauge Convention Laws on children should be sent out with the migration application forms.

[whopperdaisy]

I will add in case it wasn't obvious from Pommyoz's post that the outcomes can be very different in family court here in terms of custody arrangements compared to in the UK. There is an assumption that just because a parent is shown to be abusive towards the other parent, it does not mean he or she is likely to abuse the child. This is statistically incorrect. Going through the courts is terrifying, it feels as bad as the original abuse a lot of the time. One of the judge's response when informed that abuse had occurred: "Get over it!"

[Guest guest22466]

I will add in case it wasn't obvious from Pommyoz's post that the outcomes can be very different in family court here in terms of custody arrangements compared to in the UK. There is an assumption that just because a parent is shown to be abusive towards the other parent, it does not mean he or she is likely to abuse the child. This is statistically incorrect. Going through the courts is terrifying, it feels as bad as the original abuse a lot of the time. One of the judge's response when informed that abuse had occurred: "Get over it!"

 

Whopperdaisy I was advised that just because I had left my ex due to his abuse to drinking and drink driving that I was unable to prove anyway that the courts do not see my son is in danger. The barrister said on the way out of the court after I had lost the relocation case if he turns up and he has been drinking just dont let him take your son and we cant do anything until your son ends up on a slab in the hospital....lovely hey

 

I asked to have an order that my ex not drink while he has our son in his care and the barrister laughed in my face and said sorry very hard to do that....WHY?????

 

After school care have already rang me say that my ex smelt of drink when he came to pick my son up and that he was nasty to them and they would not tolerate that from him and next time they will call the police.........honestly....i could scream at times and dealing with all this on your own takes a toll on life for everyone parent and children. When my son calls his dad he can hardly put a sentance together as his dad is so drunk....

 

So just beware the court system here is not the same as the UK and can be a bit WHATEVER!!!!!! GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!LIVE with it and you have to.

[2tigers]

Must also add, in Australia, if you split up and are happy (or not for a lot of cases) to stay in Australia, you can not even move state without the Fathers consent. You have to stay close to the Father so he can have access to his children if he wants to. BUT HE can move state or country if he wants to, you don't have a leg to stand on if you want him to stay in your child's life. Its all backwards, this law needs revisiting and updating!

 

The bottom line is this, if you are thinking of going to live in AU or you live there now, and have children or want children, just speak to each other about this law and come to an agreement of what would happen if you split up. Get it in writing with a Lawyer. Protect your future and your child's just as you do when you write a will. Relationships can get so bitter when they crumble.

[Phoenix16]

I find this whole thread difficult yet compelling reading and my heart goes out you all of you who are here in this situation.

 

I'm here with Hubby and daughter, I had no idea about this legislation and definitely didn't have 'the discussion' or get anything in writing. I feel confident that if we split he would let me return to UK with my daughter but I suspect you all felt the same and think I'm being somewhat naive.

 

We are happy and no prospects of splitting but This thread makes me think about what if..and what I'd do, it makes me go into 'cunning' mode and I've never drawn my husbands attention to this law and I think I'd be off home before a solicitor had chance to put him in the know. Yup I suspect I'm being naive again.

 

Anyway, wish you all the very best and just want to say that there are some strong, awesome women posting their stories on this thread - much respect to you xxx

[Parley]

This is obviously a very emotive area.

The Australia Family law is actually very progressive in that it is intended to allow a child to have an ongoing meaningful relationship with both parents.

 

It is strongly believed that in most cases it is in the child's best interests to have an ongoing relationship with both parents.

This may theoretically mean equal access with both parents (50% with each).

 

Although in practice this doesn't usually happen (50/50 shared care), the courts take the view that shared access is very beneficial as the starting assumption.

[Quoll]

This is obviously a very emotive area.

The Australia Family law is actually very progressive in that it is intended to allow a child to have an ongoing meaningful relationship with both parents.

 

It is strongly believed that in most cases it is in the child's best interests to have an ongoing relationship with both parents.

This may theoretically mean equal access with both parents (50% with each).

 

Although in practice this doesn't usually happen (50/50 shared care), the courts take the view that shared access is very beneficial as the starting assumption.

 

Sadly, it has turned out to be one of those progressive laws which have really unpalatable unintended consequences for some. When you see custodial parents who are effectively trapped and isolated because some drop kick of a partner has said they want access to their kid (and whilst it usually is the woman who is unable to access her natural support network that isnt always the case) then you do wonder whether that is really in the best interest of any child. (Have worked with kids where one parent had been found to be abusive and yet refused to allow the other parent to move out of the jurisdiction with the child to just another state where there was more extended family support)

 

In theory the 50/50 is lovely but in practice it rarely occurs and in some cases where parents have been really amicable about their split and have taken the 50/50 literally you have kids who dont know whether they are Arthur or Martha (I worked with a kid once who did day and day about - talk about living in chaos poor little thing).

 

At least there seems to be the capacity for families in UK to make a case to court that a child's needs would be better met elsewhere and the court will decide on the compromise situation - that seems a better option to me.

[Guest guest22466]

Just to add insult to injury my sons father has ONLY just put his last 3 years tax returns in and now I have a child support debt of over $1,000 just for xmas ...as he does not declare what he earns and what he gets from rental property. I earn more than he does ...he is about $60,000 down on his gross per year. If my sons father really wanted his son to stay in this country my questions are why when we stepped out of court did he reduce his time and financial support for his son....oh yes because he can ......the systems in place in Australia allow him to. First he fools the courts , then the ATO and the CSA and cheats his son of a better life.....sometimes its not about the child its about wining and control of the other parent and in some cases who is better off living in which country. It benefits my sons father to live in Australia but not my son and I. So just think twice about bringing your children and if things go wrong that are beyond your control. In my case we both have more family and friends in the UK so why coulndt he move back to see his son as I did to come here. Even though im the one with full custody he seems to be the one that dictates where we live and I cant move more than 65kms from my sons father and Sydney is not a cheap place to live on your own with a child while he lives in a nice wealthy suburb with his family here ...his son and I do not.

 

His CSA payments were ONLY $6 per week then upto $20 per week its a joke and the answer is well we dont have the staff to check into them all. Yes the systems are very backwards here and they dont seem too care much about the parent left with the child to care for on their own and how they manage.

 

Ive all on gettng my son to go once every 2 weeks to his dads let alone 50/50 custody. Plus my sons father didnt want 50/50 custody ............he cant look after himself let alone anyone else.....

[Guest guest22466]

Must also add, in Australia, if you split up and are happy (or not for a lot of cases) to stay in Australia, you can not even move state without the Fathers consent. You have to stay close to the Father so he can have access to his children if he wants to. BUT HE can move state or country if he wants to, you don't have a leg to stand on if you want him to stay in your child's life. Its all backwards, this law needs revisiting and updating!

 

The bottom line is this, if you are thinking of going to live in AU or you live there now, and have children or want children, just speak to each other about this law and come to an agreement of what would happen if you split up. Get it in writing with a Lawyer. Protect your future and your child's just as you do when you write a will. Relationships can get so bitter when they crumble.

 

Tigers2 bet your glad you got away from all this..honest it never ever ends and this is 7 years on . Its funny what some people see as the bests interests of the child when they are not living it and only see the child once a blue moon and have all the help and support of family and friends themselves.

 

Just how important is it for parents to know about this information....its priceless information that I wish I would have known before entering Australia on a temp visa.

 

Hope your still all good and well..Have a great xmas xx

[Parley]

Many fathers of course do the right thing, pay their full child support obligations and want to have a great relationship with their kids.

 

I'm sorry this hasn't been your experience.

[Guest guest22466]

Many fathers of course do the right thing, pay their full child support obligations and want to have a great relationship with their kids.

 

I'm sorry this hasn't been your experience.

 

You are so right parleycross there are many fathers who do the right thing by their children and so they should .

 

However when the parent does not do the right thing then you may look forward to some of the above systems in place .... hence why this link is very informative for the ones who are migrating with children.

[whopperdaisy]

I was chatting with a child psychologist recently and she told me the bulk of her clients are people caught up in the fallout of the shared care assumption. She also mentioned there is more recent research that suggests that assumption is a disaster for children, but that it takes a very long time to adjust accordingly.

 

The reality is, each case should be taken on its merits because each child and family is different. There are other guidelines that seem to be often ignored, such as not putting a parent and child at risk from the other parent where domestic violence is a factor. Factors such as addiction and mental disorders, drug use, alcoholism should IMO be taken far more into account. Note I am careful to say parent because it certainly can be either parent who has these issues. Should there still be an assumption of shared care where one parent is a frequent drug user, where one parent been abusive to the other over the child's head, made threats of abduction, etc.

OK, rant over.

[Quoll]

I was chatting with a child psychologist recently and she told me the bulk of her clients are people caught up in the fallout of the shared care assumption. She also mentioned there is more recent research that suggests that assumption is a disaster for children, but that it takes a very long time to adjust accordingly.

 

The reality is, each case should be taken on its merits because each child and family is different. There are other guidelines that seem to be often ignored, such as not putting a parent and child at risk from the other parent where domestic violence is a factor. Factors such as addiction and mental disorders, drug use, alcoholism should IMO be taken far more into account. Note I am careful to say parent because it certainly can be either parent who has these issues. Should there still be an assumption of shared care where one parent is a frequent drug user, where one parent been abusive to the other over the child's head, made threats of abduction, etc.

OK, rant over.

 

 

That would largely be my experience as well. I would also venture to say that some kids never quite manage it and adjust. I guess I admit to some jaundice in this regard having seen some abominations of shared care - if only the kids could sue the judiciary down the track!!!

[whopperdaisy]

I guess I am a bit jaded as well because one of the problems is the assumption that each parent has the child's welfare as a high priority and that is not always the case unfortunately. I do my utmost to make things as easy as I can on little one, do not criticise LO's father to her (the opposite in fact, probably overcompensate) only to have a confused little one coming home saying "Daddy says you're bad and mean and this isn't my home any more."