Quoll Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Well this is certainly food for thought and thank you so much for bringing it to my attention. Due to come over to Darwin late next year on my DH's 457 visa. He is a very reasonable man and an excellent father and husband, however, he'll be the first to admit he can be very selfish when it comes to his work. The plan is to come over for the 4 years and then if all goes well, apply for PR. He knows I am very unsure about this move and have agreed to it, so my daughter can have more quality time with him and we can be a family again after him working away most of our married life (13 years). Our daughter will be 12 when we move and I would like to err on the side of caution and cover my back if something was to go wrong. Is this necessary at her age or would a court listen if she said, I want to go back to the UK with my mum? Obviously if she said she wanted to stay out there and I wanted to come back then I would stay for her, I just don't want to end up in the position of both of us having no choice should hubby decide that life in Oz is for him and I don't. I have to reiterate how important this thread is and how shocked I was when I stumbled on to it. Thank you all for bringing this to our attention. If in doubt, cover your back! If you have any doubts at all then get this tied up with a concrete agreement, although how an Aus court would view it is another matter altogether, I dont know whether anyone has ever had the foresight to get an agreement in writing which has then been presented to an Aus court in case of a dispute of custody. Coming back with your daughter at 16 if it all goes pear shaped is going to be a very difficult proposition for her given the GCSE roundabout and all its timings. Good luck with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylowe Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 hi thats good to no but what age does the goverment stop calling them children? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 hi thats good to no but what age does the goverment stop calling them children? Generally 16 for care and protection purposes but they will ask a child's opinion when they get into their teens - doesnt stop the family court making their 50/50 decision though. My comment about GCSEs was more to do with education than a child's wishes about who to reside with and you are planning on being away for the period which would impact their education significantly if you stayed the entire time in Aus and then planned to return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylowe Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 my son is 16 and wants to join the Australian army when we move to melbourne on a 457 visa will this be possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazinga Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 http://www.defence.gov.au/adfa/links_resources/faqs.html Have a look here that seems to be for officers. This for the rest - http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/ This is the best page - http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitmentCentre/canIJoin/default.aspx Minimum age is 17. "You must be an Australian citizen or have permanent residency status and be eligible for citizenship" This explains it a bit better - http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitmentCentre/canIJoin/citizenship/ Training also seems to be in Canberra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylowe Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 cheers for the links and info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazinga Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 No worries. Power of google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ligs Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 and you are planning on being away for the period which would impact their education significantly if you stayed the entire time in Aus and then planned to return. This was one of the reasons I ask, I will know within a couple of years if I want to make it permanent, if not I need to get her back to the UK in time for her to continue at her current school for her GCSEs. Don't want hubby putting a spanner in the works if he decides to stay. In all honesty, I wouldn't mind him staying on and we go out for all her school holidays, which should cause less of a problem with hubby re her going back. The joys of being a contractor's wife for years leads to a little too much of an independent lifestyle methinks :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 my son is 16 and wants to join the Australian army when we move to melbourne on a 457 visa will this be possible Nope, not an option unfortunately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockDr Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 In all honesty, if your daughter is likely to go to uni, it would be possible to come back to the UK at 16, ready to slot into the two years of a-levels. Not having GCSEs in this circumstance would not jeopardise uni entrance, and once you're at uni, GCSEs are irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still-a-dream! Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I have read this thread many time over the last 9 months. And am very concerned about it all. The situation is, Me and Partner are moving to QLD with our 2 daughters in Nov 2011 on a temp visa with his job. Basically in the current situation we are happy and looking forward to our new life in Oz together as a family. But are realistic and know something may happen down the line...we may (hopefully not) split up for whatever reason. We are wanting to know what we can actually have drawn up...as this thread is pre-warning people, but we are wondering what we can actually do to be prepared. OH has stated that he knows he would want the children to stay with me in whichever country I chose to reside in...the choice being mine. But also agrees if down the line things got heated he may not see this so clearly...if and when etc, so would also want something drawing up to support me in whatever I choose to do, this being in the best interests of the children and also so I feel secure in the move. Hope this makes sense. So basically wondering, what people have had drawn up by a solicitor here in the Uk in relation to the Hague Convention and Child Abduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tigers Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 I have read this thread many time over the last 9 months. And am very concerned about it all. The situation is, Me and Partner are moving to QLD with our 2 daughters in Nov 2011 on a temp visa with his job. Basically in the current situation we are happy and looking forward to our new life in Oz together as a family. But are realistic and know something may happen down the line...we may (hopefully not) split up for whatever reason. We are wanting to know what we can actually have drawn up...as this thread is pre-warning people, but we are wondering what we can actually do to be prepared. OH has stated that he knows he would want the children to stay with me in whichever country I chose to reside in...the choice being mine. But also agrees if down the line things got heated he may not see this so clearly...if and when etc, so would also want something drawing up to support me in whatever I choose to do, this being in the best interests of the children and also so I feel secure in the move. Hope this makes sense. So basically wondering, what people have had drawn up by a solicitor here in the Uk in relation to the Hague Convention and Child Abduction. Hi there, I am glad the post is making people aware, you are being very wise in discussing the 'what if' with your partner. If I was you, to put your mind at rest, I would make an appointment with a solicitor who specialises in family law. Ask for it to be put in writing that he gives you permission to return to the UK with the children, and any future children to permanently relocate if you so wish (or however you wanted it wording). I have never done this, and I am not legally trained, but I do know that if you were both already in Australia and he put it in writing that you could leave with the children permanently, that this is seen as giving his permission. So for him to write it before you leave one would say it makes sense for the courts to take that into consideration. BUT I am not legally trained, I am just one who has been through this and it was the worst time of my life, I am one of the few who was able to return home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still-a-dream! Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Hi there, I am glad the post is making people aware, you are being very wise in discussing the 'what if' with your partner. If I was you, to put your mind at rest, I would make an appointment with a solicitor who specialises in family law. Ask for it to be put in writing that he gives you permission to return to the UK with the children, and any future children to permanently relocate if you so wish (or however you wanted it wording). I have never done this, and I am not legally trained, but I do know that if you were both already in Australia and he put it in writing that you could leave with the children permanently, that this is seen as giving his permission. So for him to write it before you leave one would say it makes sense for the courts to take that into consideration. BUT I am not legally trained, I am just one who has been through this and it was the worst time of my life, I am one of the few who was able to return home. Thanks 2Tigers, it is something I am very worried about as children mean everything to you. Im glad things have worked out for you as it must have been such an awful ordeal for you. I have spoken to a family law solicitor and he has looked into it but just thinks that with relation to the Hague convention the only wording you can put is to state that it is the wishes of both parents to have any future legal proceedings with relation to the children to be dealt with in a UK court. That you cant really state that one parent can leave with children...as this is against the Hague convention. And even this may not stand in an Australian jurisdiction. I wish I knew what people had drawn up to protect them completely against it ever going to court...to simply have the freedom to do so. On the other hand I do understand the reason for the Hague convention.:chatterbox: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tigers Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Thanks 2Tigers, it is something I am very worried about as children mean everything to you. Im glad things have worked out for you as it must have been such an awful ordeal for you. I have spoken to a family law solicitor and he has looked into it but just thinks that with relation to the Hague convention the only wording you can put is to state that it is the wishes of both parents to have any future legal proceedings with relation to the children to be dealt with in a UK court. That you cant really state that one parent can leave with children...as this is against the Hague convention. And even this may not stand in an Australian jurisdiction. I wish I knew what people had drawn up to protect them completely against it ever going to court...to simply have the freedom to do so. On the other hand I do understand the reason for the Hague convention.:chatterbox: Your very welcome, there are many people on this site that will assist whenever they can. Just a little note, the Hague Convention and International Relocation are two separate cases in a court. The HC only ever comes into play if a parent takes the children out of the country they are residing in without the other parents permission. There are LOTS of family law solicitors that are not well versed at all in the HC, thats both in the UK and Australia, its quite scary some of the advice that I was given initially, and when that solicitor was called into court the judge asked him if he understood the HC and scarily his reaction was 'yeah, kind of'....... if you wanted to get in touch with a solicitor who specialises in relocation and the HC then the best base for you is to look at this website - http://www.reunite.org/ Reunite were my saviour, they are a free organisation with a wealth of experience with relocations and the HC, they will be able to give you a list of solicitors in the UK, as most give the first 30-60 mins free, this would hopefully be enough time to direct you the right way. Good luck, I hope you never need to reflect back on this thread though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brokenhearted Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I have read this thread many time over the last 9 months. And am very concerned about it all. The situation is, Me and Partner are moving to QLD with our 2 daughters in Nov 2011 on a temp visa with his job. Basically in the current situation we are happy and looking forward to our new life in Oz together as a family. But are realistic and know something may happen down the line...we may (hopefully not) split up for whatever reason. We are wanting to know what we can actually have drawn up...as this thread is pre-warning people, but we are wondering what we can actually do to be prepared. OH has stated that he knows he would want the children to stay with me in whichever country I chose to reside in...the choice being mine. But also agrees if down the line things got heated he may not see this so clearly...if and when etc, so would also want something drawing up to support me in whatever I choose to do, this being in the best interests of the children and also so I feel secure in the move. Hope this makes sense. So basically wondering, what people have had drawn up by a solicitor here in the Uk in relation to the Hague Convention and Child Abduction. It's a good sign that your partner and you are able to communicate about this and that you have his support. I looked into the possibility of having an agreement drawn up to say that I would be able to leave Australia with the children without the father's permission (and I was happy for him to do the same, i.e. without my permission, thereby 'forcing' me to come home), but I was told by solicitors that it would not be worth the paper it was written on. It would only show his intention at the time of writing, and he could withdraw this permission at any time. The courts might take the agreement into consideration, but it would not be legally binding. Another thing to think about is that it may not be considered to be in the best interests of the children to live where you solely decide in the future, if they are happily settled in Australia and at school, and do not want to return to UK, or leave their father. Is there anything else that might make you feel more secure? Would he agree to return to the UK after trying Aus for an agreed number of years? i don't want to put ideas into your head but if you were already thinking about it, marriage might make you feel more secure. But look at your relationship. If he is kind and considerate, you trust him and are happy, then that goes a long way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brokenhearted Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Thanks 2Tigers, it is something I am very worried about as children mean everything to you. Im glad things have worked out for you as it must have been such an awful ordeal for you. I have spoken to a family law solicitor and he has looked into it but just thinks that with relation to the Hague convention the only wording you can put is to state that it is the wishes of both parents to have any future legal proceedings with relation to the children to be dealt with in a UK court. That you cant really state that one parent can leave with children...as this is against the Hague convention. And even this may not stand in an Australian jurisdiction. I wish I knew what people had drawn up to protect them completely against it ever going to court...to simply have the freedom to do so. On the other hand I do understand the reason for the Hague convention.:chatterbox: I am not a solicitor so you might want to look into this again, but I would have said that the Hague Convention decrees that any issues over custody be dealt with in the country in which the child is currently residing, which would be Australia if you lived there in the future. I think that therefore the case would only proceed in a British court if both parents at the time of the dispute wished it. Each country has it's own family laws and there are some examples on the web as to how Australia's laws come into play in custody battles. They are very strict, and in one case it seemed that a father in jail was better than no dad at all, and the mother and the child were required to remain residing in Australia. There are very few cases in Australia whereby a parent is allowed to relocate with a child without the permission of the other parent. In the UK, if the situation were reversed, it seems there is a significantly greater likelihood of being allowed to return. I'm not sure that many people have drawn up an agreement. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has, but I would be quite surprised, due to what I said in a previous post about it not being legally binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still-a-dream! Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Thanks Brokenhearted and 2Tigers for your responses and suggestions. I do think its a bit of a grey area as the solicitor had to really look into the HC even though he is a very good and long established solicitor. I cant understand the one you mentioned with the father in jail... as you would think where there is extended family back in the UK to support the mother and child surely that would be better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brokenhearted Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I agree, you would think being with extended family back in the UK in such a scenario would be better. Maybe they are now, this is just one case I noted when I was looking into it in, in early 2010. I have just noticed you are leaving for Australia next month. Sorry, did not mean to put the frighteners on you! Wishing you all the best in preparing for the big move :smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still-a-dream! Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I agree, you would think being with extended family back in the UK in such a scenario would be better. Maybe they are now, this is just one case I noted when I was looking into it in, in early 2010. I have just noticed you are leaving for Australia next month. Sorry, did not mean to put the frighteners on you! Wishing you all the best in preparing for the big move :smile: Sorry just seen your message. Thanks! Yes leaving on Nov 8th..... So the name 'Still-a-dream!' is not so appropriate now! Will just hope for the best :-), hopefully it will be everything we want, for our sakes and the children Hope you dont think Im Miss Negative...just trying to be practical and careful :cute: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brokenhearted Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 No, I don't think you're Miss Negative, not at all! If anyone, that was me, too frightened of not being able to return to the UK to give it a go. But if my ex-partner had been reliable, I would have been there like a shot. It's good to think ahead, but hopefully you will all love it there. Such an exciting time - best of luck with everything :smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whopperdaisy Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 One thing people should also consider.... it may not be just that you can't relocate completely back to the UK... you may also not be able to even go back for visits unless you either leave your children behind or else pay to go through court to ask permission for a holiday - and there is no guarantee it will be granted. Unfortunately there are parents who will continue to use their bit of 'power' in this way, no matter how much a child may wish to see grandparents etc. It may sound obvious but, if you have concerns about your relationship in the UK, don't expect moving to Australia to make things better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 One thing people should also consider.... it may not be just that you can't relocate completely back to the UK... you may also not be able to even go back for visits unless you either leave your children behind or else pay to go through court to ask permission for a holiday - and there is no guarantee it will be granted. Unfortunately there are parents who will continue to use their bit of 'power' in this way, no matter how much a child may wish to see grandparents etc. It may sound obvious but, if you have concerns about your relationship in the UK, don't expect moving to Australia to make things better. It's even more restrictive than that - you may not be able to leave the jurisdiction so, as in the case of some women who have been on here, they have been unable to leave the small town they live in (often with the spouse's family and friendship network) because of the spouse's connection to the child. That really is a prison sentence if you arent able to move beyond the town limits and find a life somewhere else in the state even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tigers Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 It's even more restrictive than that - you may not be able to leave the jurisdiction so, as in the case of some women who have been on here, they have been unable to leave the small town they live in (often with the spouse's family and friendship network) because of the spouse's connection to the child. That really is a prison sentence if you arent able to move beyond the town limits and find a life somewhere else in the state even. This is all so true, I am so fortunate I was able to relocate back home........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yes I guess its intended to stop those women who would not come back again despite saying they were only going for a holiday. Presumably that was happening and why they introduced the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tigers Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Yes I guess its intended to stop those women who would not come back again despite saying they were only going for a holiday.Presumably that was happening and why they introduced the law. No, in fact its quite different. When I have more time later I will try to find the history or something more factual based, or maybe someone reading this who is interested could? My Lawyer told me the history but I would prefer some facts to back it up before I posted it really. Basically, from what I recall - its only over recent years where international relationships are more common; where the mother is known to relocate to the fathers country to bring the child up rather than the father relocate to the mothers land, that this type of 'abduction' is common. Many many years ago, (I was told) it was brought about to prevent men abducting a child abroad from the mother, never to be seen again. Not the other way around. As we know in history, its always been the mother who has had full parental responsibility, a child would always stay with the mother. As time has moved on, fathers have more rights and the HC, regardless of how old the law is, caters for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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