newjez Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) He is technically correct that most Indians do still live in poverty. But with a population that is 15 times that of the UK they're still able to have an affluent middle class that exceeds the population of the UK (just to be clear that exceeds the whole population of the UK not the affluent middle class of the UK).Numbers vary - but it's big and getting bigger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_India But some people find this hard to cope with and prefer the thought of the third world scrabbling around in the dirt. I know my parents take exception to non white people that have more money than them, and have even moved suburbs when people of ethnic origin have moved into the area and bought lavish houses. Edited January 27, 2017 by newjez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Horses and carts? Rickets? What are you talking about? I moved to Leicester in the early 90's - so not exactly centuries ago - the place had hundreds of textile factories. On my walk home from uni I would go past literally hundreds of signs for "Overlockers Wanted". I know many people who worked in them as I had a girlfriend at the time who was a local girl and got to make friends with many outside of uni. The factories have all gone now. The overlockers who if any good could make a pretty decent wage are now all doing minimum wage zero hour contracts. Though I have heard in the last couple of years there has been a bit of a resurgence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 What are you talking about? I moved to Leicester in the early 90's - so not exactly centuries ago - the place had hundreds of textile factories. On my walk home from uni I would go past literally hundreds of signs for "Overlockers Wanted". I know many people who worked in them as I had a girlfriend at the time who was a local girl and got to make friends with many outside of uni. The factories have all gone now. The overlockers who if any good could make a pretty decent wage are now all doing minimum wage zero hour contracts. Though I have heard in the last couple of years there has been a bit of a resurgence The problem with you VS is you are a Zebra siding with the lions - or a Turkey voting for Xmas. Brexit is the free trade revolution. The demise you have seen is nothing compared to what the Tories want to happen. China and India destroyed the textile industry, not Europe. You've voted for more of the same. More fool you. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2118427/Is-ANYTHING-youre-wearing-Britain.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Well obviously those masters of truth, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express and the Telegraph, never mind that all 3 are will print anything to sell papers as thy stagger to the knackers yard, they can hardly put a reporter into the field today as their readers die off and editors cut staff every which way. As opposed to the Guardian and Indi? The later is now just a repeater station for what ever stories they can copy from other news sites - usually without even fact checking. They often make me laugh with pieces. They ran a stunner the other weekend of the must visit restaurants of 2017 without bothering to check that 2 closed months ago. Or the Guardian, which is just a propaganda rag which runs around trying to find someone such as an economist that agrees with a pre made story and then reports it as news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 As opposed to the Guardian and Indi? The later is now just a repeater station for what ever stories they can copy from other news sites - usually without even fact checking. They often make me laugh with pieces. They ran a stunner the other weekend of the must visit restaurants of 2017 without bothering to check that 2 closed months ago. Or the Guardian, which is just a propaganda rag which runs around trying to find someone such as an economist that agrees with a pre made story and the youn reports it as news. The world seems to appear topsy turvy to you, even you must realise that there is a stark difference between the quality of reporting in the Guardian and that in the Mail, the Guardian I admit has a left analysis but it does use statistics that can be verified whereas the Mail and the Telegraph presents opinion as fact in many instances and also much of that opinion is denigrating and abusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 The world seems to appear topsy turvy to you, even you must realise that there is a stark difference between the quality of reporting in the Guardian and that in the Mail, the Guardian I admit has a left analysis but it does use statistics that can be verified whereas the Mail and the Telegraph presents opinion as fact in many instances and also much of that opinion is denigrating and abusive. I would generally agree with the Mail, though it actually does some good investigative journalism. The guardian no. I read it every day on line and it the one thing that makes me laugh most is that it has ran lots of pieces about post truth in recent times, yet it is the biggest culprit. it offers such a biased service that you might be better getting news from the Sunday Sport. All papers / news sources are biased of course. As a result, I read all the broad sheets daily, as well as the BBC and a mix of international ones in order to try to piece together what might actually be happening. But the Guardian is by far the most politically biased. It doesn't even publish news that doesn't fit its view or at best spins it to its view. It commentary is ridiculous to the extent that it makes the mail seem balanced. I have on numerous occasions commented in articles that they have totally misrepresented something or mis quoted or even clear,y lied, only to find the comment deleted. When asked for why, a standard answer is given as "policy" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I would generally agree with the Mail, though it actually does some good investigative journalism. The guardian no. I read it every day on line and it the one thing that makes me laugh most is that it has ran lots of pieces about post truth in recent times, yet it is the biggest culprit. it offers such a biased service that you might be better getting news from the Sunday Sport. All papers / news sources are biased of course. As a result, I read all the broad sheets daily, as well as the BBC and a mix of international ones in order to try to piece together what might actually be happening. But the Guardian is by far the most politically biased. It doesn't even publish news that doesn't fit its view or at best spins it to its view. It commentary is ridiculous to the extent that it makes the mail seem balanced. I have on numerous occasions commented in articles that they have totally misrepresented something or mis quoted or even clear,y lied, only to find the comment deleted. When asked for why, a standard answer is given as "policy" :biglaugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 All the broadsheet papers have good (and not so good) journalism but they are all victims of their editorial policy unfortunately. I remember the launch of the Independent, a paper that promised editorial independence. Whether or not it achieved that in the early days I can't say but it certainly is no longer the case. I find it amusing VS that you challenge the Guardian editorially but not the Mail. It probably just means that we are all guilty of accepting more readily information that accords with our existing view and we place our own slant on the facts regardless of their accuracy. But the move to a complete 'post-truth' era is a real worry. Propoganda is a tool used to control the masses often with evil motives and this tool is being widely used by groups with very extreme views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 The mail is by far the worse...it is a pathetic rag and anyone who believes anything they publish is IMO a thick prat,,,mods this is not aimed at anyone, just a general comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 The mail is by far the worse...it is a pathetic rag and anyone who believes anything they publish is IMO a thick prat,,,mods this is not aimed at anyone, just a general comment. The main issue for me with the Mail is their strong racist, homophobic editorial bias. They would argue that they are merely reflecting the view of their readers but I would counter that they are helping to promote prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) The main issue for me with the Mail is their strong racist, homophobic editorial bias. They would argue that they are merely reflecting the view of their readers but I would counter that they are helping to promote prejudice. Exactly, my beef with the right wing papers and unfortunately this now includes The Times is how censorious and denigrating they are towards any viewpoint of which they disapprove. Edited January 28, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 All the broadsheet papers have good (and not so good) journalism but they are all victims of their editorial policy unfortunately. I remember the launch of the Independent, a paper that promised editorial independence. Whether or not it achieved that in the early days I can't say but it certainly is no longer the case. I find it amusing VS that you challenge the Guardian editorially but not the Mail. It probably just means that we are all guilty of accepting more readily information that accords with our existing view and we place our own slant on the facts regardless of their accuracy. But the move to a complete 'post-truth' era is a real worry. Propoganda is a tool used to control the masses often with evil motives and this tool is being widely used by groups with very extreme views. I challenge the mail and a lot of what it reports is total tosh. The point is, so do the others. The worst offenders are often the left papers. I have just read a piece in the Indi about Trump. They have actually doctored the words in one of his executive orders to make it sound very different. The Guardian did a similar thing last week on a piece about a speech Boris made and they deliberately misquoted him - I listened to the speech so picked up on it. I posted in the comments that I had spotted it and the comment was deleted by the paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 The levels of your ignorance are astounding. Half my office has been imported from India. We have enough Indians now that we honour all their religious celebrations (the food is top notch). All of the Indians I work with are very affluent. They have a high standard of living here and at home. You knowledge of European immigrants is also amazingly biased. Do you know any? I know several. Great people, living their lives pretty much as we do. Only real difference is they tend to speak with a slight accent. We are discussing the sudden influx of millions of Indians if the UK does a trade deal with India.....not the current Indian population......3/4 of the population live in rural areas most under or on the poverty line.....their middle class live off $10 to $20 a day.....not a lot of change to save for the flight to the UK.....not quite as easy as hopping in a car for destination "Dover"? Yes they do have a rich elite and that was the point I made regarding those coming to this country to "learn a bit and live a bit".......not be a drain on our society.....following the recent Brexit vote I doubt it would go down very well.....eh.....what do you think? Yes I know lots of Eastern Europeans.....I would be so bold as to say, a lot more than you.....I employ a few.....I buy from a few.....I have quite a few as customers......I also know and have known lots that have been and gone with just one intention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 We are discussing the sudden influx of millions of Indians if the UK does a trade deal with India.....not the current Indian population......3/4 of the population live in rural areas most under or on the poverty line.....their middle class live off $10 to $20 a day.....not a lot of change to save for the flight to the UK.....not quite as easy as hopping in a car for destination "Dover"? Yes they do have a rich elite and that was the point I made regarding those coming to this country to "learn a bit and live a bit".......not be a drain on our society.....following the recent Brexit vote I doubt it would go down very well.....eh.....what do you think? Yes I know lots of Eastern Europeans.....I would be so bold as to say, a lot more than you.....I employ a few.....I buy from a few.....I have quite a few as customers......I also know and have known lots that have been and gone with just one intention. you think the Indian government wants their fruit pickers and cleaners to gain experience from the UK? You think this is important enough to build into a trade deal. Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) We are discussing the sudden influx of millions of Indians if the UK does a trade deal with India.....not the current Indian population......3/4 of the population live in rural areas most under or on the poverty line.....their middle class live off $10 to $20 a day.....not a lot of change to save for the flight to the UK.....not quite as easy as hopping in a car for destination "Dover"? Yes they do have a rich elite and that was the point I made regarding those coming to this country to "learn a bit and live a bit".......not be a drain on our society.....following the recent Brexit vote I doubt it would go down very well.....eh.....what do you think? Yes I know lots of Eastern Europeans.....I would be so bold as to say, a lot more than you.....I employ a few.....I buy from a few.....I have quite a few as customers......I also know and have known lots that have been and gone with just one intention. Well you can either have white immigrants or you can have brown immigrants and cheap home grown food or you can have high priced produce picked by home labour or redundant farmers and imported produce, take your pick. I don't think you are aware of how far the old colony's have moved on from the days of the empire. Edited January 28, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Well you can either have white immigrants or you can have brown immigrants and cheap home grown food or you can have high priced produce picked by home labour or redundant farmers and imported produce, take your pick.I don't think you are aware of how far the old colony's have moved on from the days of the empire. Ah yes, the entire population of the U.K. lived on rock until 5 years ago. People have forgotten that years ago until we had massive influxes of migrant labour the Lake District was higher than Everest. But, we ate it all. Ah, I suppose we will all have to go back to chewing them mountainsides again. Mind you, I know many that prefer granite to sprouts, so it's not all bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 you think the Indian government wants their fruit pickers and cleaners to gain experience from the UK? You think this is important enough to build into a trade deal. Really? What pomsinoz website are you reading? All I have done is question someones suggestion that we would be inundated with Indian migrants if we do deals with them just like we have been inundated with eastern european migrants because we are in the EU.....I base this on eastern europe being a few hundred miles away by land rather than a few thousand by air and the fact your average Indian does not have a pot to p#ss in so getting here would be very very hard.....much harder than jumping in car in Poland with 3 mates sharing the petrol to the UK......do you get it now......who mentioned fruit pickers and cleaners.......... you know you and the other 2 that frequent this thread are not the "knowledge" of this subject......even if you do read broad sheet news papers, dabble in stocks and shares and are fully paid up members of "momentum.....doesn't make you the brexit genius's....the levels of your arrogance are embarrassing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Well you can either have white immigrants or you can have brown immigrants and cheap home grown food or you can have high priced produce picked by home labour or redundant farmers and imported produce, take your pick.I don't think you are aware of how far the old colony's have moved on from the days of the empire. Oh, and we must not forget poor old Australia. Never haven being a member of the EU it has only ever known the rock diet. So, it has eaten its way know towards the middle, leaving this last big chunk in the middle near Alice Springs. Though, I have heard that there are these new discoveries called the Blue Mountains. I am guessing they taste like blue cheese. Yum. I suppose that is why Sydney house prices are high as Blue cheese tasting rock is a big plus. Must be better than New Zealand any way as they obviously have no farming being the as far from the EU as possible, though I here there are lots of mountains to eat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 What pomsinoz website are you reading? All I have done is question someones suggestion that we would be inundated with Indian migrants if we do deals with them just like we have been inundated with eastern european migrants because we are in the EU.....I base this on eastern europe being a few hundred miles away by land rather than a few thousand by air and the fact your average Indian does not have a pot to p#ss in so getting here would be very very hard.....much harder than jumping in car in Poland with 3 mates sharing the petrol to the UK......do you get it now......who mentioned fruit pickers and cleaners.......... you know you and the other 2 that frequent this thread are not the "knowledge" of this subject......even if you do read broad sheet news papers, dabble in stocks and shares and are fully paid up members of "momentum.....doesn't make you the brexit genius's....the levels of your arrogance are embarrassing..... even under our current visa system India and China feature heavily. After brexit they will easily fill the gap. Look at the numbers. Apart from Poland eastern Europeans aren't that high. Free up entry a little and we will easily fill up with Indians and Chinese. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11622718/Immigration-nation-where-are-the-Britains-migrants-coming-from-and-why.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) Ah yes, the entire population of the U.K. lived on rock until 5 years ago. People have forgotten that years ago until we had massive influxes of migrant labour the Lake District was higher than Everest. But, we ate it all. Ah, I suppose we will all have to go back to chewing them mountainsides again. Mind you, I know many that prefer granite to sprouts, so it's not all bad.we can close our borders but things will cost more and we will have less. I personally don't think this is a bad thing. We have been indoctrinated to believe we need so much which we don't. The latest car, the latest phone, latest clothes. We live in a throwaway society. I am with you mate. But good luck convincing the other sixty million. Especially the brexit free traders, who want to expand on it, not close it down. You're on the wrong side. Thanks to you we will say bye bye to many more industries. Edited January 28, 2017 by newjez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Oh, and we must not forget poor old Australia. Never haven being a member of the EU it has only ever known the rock diet. So, it has eaten its way know towards the middle, leaving this last big chunk in the middle near Alice Springs. Though, I have heard that there are these new discoveries called the Blue Mountains. I am guessing they taste like blue cheese. Yum. I suppose that is why Sydney house prices are high as Blue cheese tasting rock is a big plus. Must be better than New Zealand any way as they obviously have no farming being the as far from the EU as possible, though I here there are lots of mountains to eat. The allegory you are using is hard to unpick but comparing UK agriculture with Australian agriculture (which is what I am guessing you are doing) is flawed. Australian fresh produce is often picked by backpacker labour, something that the UK really does not have. Despite being relatively poorly paid it is still better paid than immigrant farm labour in the UK. Hence fresh home grown produce is currently more expensive to buy in Australia than it is in the UK. If you stop migrant farm labour from Eastern Europe the UK consumer will either have to pay more for homegrown produce or switch to potentially cheaper imported produce putting UK agriculture in jeopardy. Though the devalued pound has made cheap imported food less cheap so either way prices will rise. Of course the UK government could increase farming subsidies but if the price of leaving the EU is lower corporate tax and massive farm subsidies then it is starting to look very costly. Tax rises will surely follow for all but the wealthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 What pomsinoz website are you reading? All I have done is question someones suggestion that we would be inundated with Indian migrants if we do deals with them just like we have been inundated with eastern european migrants because we are in the EU.....I base this on eastern europe being a few hundred miles away by land rather than a few thousand by air and the fact your average Indian does not have a pot to p#ss in so getting here would be very very hard.....much harder than jumping in car in Poland with 3 mates sharing the petrol to the UK......do you get it now......who mentioned fruit pickers and cleaners.......... you know you and the other 2 that frequent this thread are not the "knowledge" of this subject......even if you do read broad sheet news papers, dabble in stocks and shares and are fully paid up members of "momentum.....doesn't make you the brexit genius's....the levels of your arrogance are embarrassing..... No but do you realise that their are thousands of untouchables working in the UK, they are the lowest caste in India, doing the cleaning of toilets and the dirtiest jobs in India, they used to not be fed by families they worked for on plates that were used by the family, but they borrow money and get on a plane and make it here. Your view of Indians is based on a very prejudiced view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 even under our current visa system India and China feature heavily. After brexit they will easily fill the gap. Look at the numbers. Apart from Poland eastern Europeans aren't that high. Free up entry a little and we will easily fill up with Indians and Chinese. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11622718/Immigration-nation-where-are-the-Britains-migrants-coming-from-and-why.html the ones you know about...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 the ones you know about...... Are you implying that people who presently have the right to enter the UK legally sneak in illegally instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Are you implying that people who presently have the right to enter the UK legally sneak in illegally instead? It's not a matter of when they entered but (because of the almost complete lack of UK border controls) it's a matter of did they leave or not? The UK publishes "statistics" but they're really just estimates. When somebody from the Eastern Europe enters the UK nobody knows if they've left or not until the next time they enter the country. So who knows if they're in the UK or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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