newjez Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) It's not a matter of when they entered but (because of the almost complete lack of UK border controls) it's a matter of did they leave or not? The UK publishes "statistics" but they're really just estimates. When somebody from the Eastern Europe enters the UK nobody knows if they've left or not until the next time they enter the country. So who knows if they're in the UK or not?last time I entered or left the UK I had to show my passport. Why wouldn't the figures be accurate? These people are legal. Why wouldn't they register for benefits? Edited January 29, 2017 by newjez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 This would have been preferable to brexit. Back to a tight knit group of equal powers, and drop all the crappy club med and eastern European countries. Well, maybe they will let us re join after they restructure. Mr Stark said Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Germany “plus Austria and Finland” could form the core of a system with “staggered integration” for other countries such as Italy and Greece. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/01/29/eurozone-destruction-necessary-countries-thrive-warns-former/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Are you implying that people who presently have the right to enter the UK legally sneak in illegally instead? If I were you I would try and loose that smart ar#e persona you give off......I am implying that we do not know how many immigrants we have......plenty of illegals enter the country.....plenty of legals from the EU will make multiple fraudulent benefit applications using false Id's ......you are delusional if you think all of those coming to this country do not take advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) If I were you I would try and loose that smart ar#e persona you give off......I am implying that we do not know how many immigrants we have......plenty of illegals enter the country.....plenty of legals from the EU will make multiple fraudulent benefit applications using false Id's ......you are delusional if you think all of those coming to this country do not take advantage.Plenty more UK residents will make multiple fraudulent benefit applications. Most migrants come here to work hard and get a better life. They tend to get exploited by the British if anything. That's were we should have been concentrating our efforts - making sure they live in suitable housing and weren't exploited. But that would have reduced the profits that the rich scrapped off the top. None of you seem to be addressing the elephant in the room, as to why the governments over the last twenty years have encouraged immigration, and May is on that list. I know you are a hater and a daily mail reader but try and keep it real mate. Edited February 3, 2017 by newjez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Plenty more UK residents will make multiple fraudulent benefit applications. Most migrants come here to work hard and get a better life. They tend to get exploited by the British if anything. That's were we should have been concentrating our efforts - making sure they live in suitable housing and weren't exploited. But that would have reduced the profits that the rich scrapped off the top. None of you seem to be addressing the elephant in the room, as to why the governments over the last twenty years have encouraged immigration, and May is on that list. I know you are a hater and a daily mail reader but try and keep it real mate. Couldn't have framed a response any better. The UK economy has benefited hugely from immigration. That is not to say that it has been beneficial for all ordinary people in the UK though which is probably the crux of the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Plenty more UK residents will make multiple fraudulent benefit applications. Most migrants come here to work hard and get a better life. They tend to get exploited by the British if anything. That's were we should have been concentrating our efforts - making sure they live in suitable housing and weren't exploited. But that would have reduced the profits that the rich scrapped off the top. None of you seem to be addressing the elephant in the room, as to why the governments over the last twenty years have encouraged immigration, and May is on that list. I know you are a hater and a daily mail reader but try and keep it real mate. agree for once with you, most do come to work, its the ones from outside the EU who are a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 last time I entered or left the UK I had to show my passport. Why wouldn't the figures be accurate? These people are legal. Why wouldn't they register for benefits? The last time I left the UK (and all the times before that) I had to show that I had a passport but no one recorded the details, there was no departure card (not even a landing card for British and other EU citizens). They may have changed all that (it's been 4 years) but even if they've started doing that the gaping whole in the data will take decades to work it's way out of the figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Plenty more UK residents will make multiple fraudulent benefit applications. Most migrants come here to work hard and get a better life. They tend to get exploited by the British if anything. That's were we should have been concentrating our efforts - making sure they live in suitable housing and weren't exploited. But that would have reduced the profits that the rich scrapped off the top. None of you seem to be addressing the elephant in the room, as to why the governments over the last twenty years have encouraged immigration, and May is on that list. I know you are a hater and a daily mail reader but try and keep it real mate. Ahhhh the spin doctors on overtime.......you need to follow the thread and stop putting your own spin on things......no one has mentioned the comparison between UK and EU benefit claims......it has nothing whasoever to do with the point I am making.......are you saying that no EU immigrants or Illegal immigrants enter into any dodgy claims or fraudulent benefit applications? just how do you know I am a "hater" as you call it? I am intrigued to know where you get this info from?......I would not dream of trying to make such ridiculous claims as these without having any firm knowledge/proof.....maybe thats the difference between us......I stick to the facts......you....... How do you know what paper I read? have you been playing with your crystal ball again......do tell..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 The last time I left the UK (and all the times before that) I had to show that I had a passport but no one recorded the details, there was no departure card (not even a landing card for British and other EU citizens). They may have changed all that (it's been 4 years) but even if they've started doing that the gaping whole in the data will take decades to work it's way out of the figures.How big is the black labour market then? If it is as substantial as people suggest - maybe we should be putting some resources into chasing these people down. I can't believe it is a significant percentage who are working cash in hand. Illegals sure - I get that. But EU nationals entitled to all rights and benefits? On one thread we have all immigrants taking out all possible benefits available from the UK and bleeding it dry, and then on another they are all living under the radar living cash in hand. I think the reality is much more normal. People like my wife's surgeon, from Poland. People like my dentist, originally from Iran, educated in Sweden, legally running a practice in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) Ahhhh the spin doctors on overtime.......you need to follow the thread and stop putting your own spin on things......no one has mentioned the comparison between UK and EU benefit claims......it has nothing whasoever to do with the point I am making.......are you saying that no EU immigrants or Illegal immigrants enter into any dodgy claims or fraudulent benefit applications? just how do you know I am a "hater" as you call it? I am intrigued to know where you get this info from?......I would not dream of trying to make such ridiculous claims as these without having any firm knowledge/proof.....maybe thats the difference between us......I stick to the facts......you....... How do you know what paper I read? have you been playing with your crystal ball again......do tell..... Many of the problems are agricultural gangmasters exploiting EU migrants by employing them on wages below the minimum, charging them for substandard accommodation, food and transport. The amount of official effort put into tracking these people down is laughable, the same with dodgy employment agencies, these are organisations run by English people and exploit eastern Europeans. A parliamentary investigation into immigration which held meetings this week in Bedford heard that applications for seasonal agricultural work are already 50% down on last year and that trying to recruit English workers to fill the gaps has not had any success, and that the European workers have a higher productivity anyway. D The fact that Theresa May is making immigration and taking back control of our law making ( despite it now being admitted that we could have introduced a legal 3 month deadline for migrants within which to get legal work and we were always free to make our own laws) as the central issue of brexit seems to be satisfying the majority of brexiteers and it is only just now dawning that the economy may be damaged irrevocably, altho it seems for some that they will only believe that when their payslip tells them it in 4 years time when it will all be too late. People are playing with lighted matches next to a bucket of petrol, the UK will have to have migrant labour to make the country work and we will have to get our heads around accepting that a percentage of our home population will either be physically or mentally unable to work effectively and with a ageing population and declining birth rate we need to be creaming off the best of the worlds surplus workforce to make the country successful and instead of giving in to the people who can't cope with that concept we are going to have to say that it is a financial imperative for the country in order for us to afford our NHS, our OAP and our aged care programme. Edited February 3, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) :biglaugh: Ahhhh the spin doctors on overtime.......you need to follow the thread and stop putting your own spin on things......no one has mentioned the comparison between UK and EU benefit claims......it has nothing whasoever to do with the point I am making.......are you saying that no EU immigrants or Illegal immigrants enter into any dodgy claims or fraudulent benefit applications? just how do you know I am a "hater" as you call it? I am intrigued to know where you get this info from?......I would not dream of trying to make such ridiculous claims as these without having any firm knowledge/proof.....maybe thats the difference between us......I stick to the facts......you....... How do you know what paper I read? have you been playing with your crystal ball again......do tell..... Because I read your posts - and stop being such a ****, it really doesn't achieve anything. You said 'all those coming from the EU ... ' and now just 1 will prove your point? Pffffff. You really need to try harder.:biglaugh: Edited February 3, 2017 by newjez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 How big is the black labour market then? If it is as substantial as people suggest - maybe we should be putting some resources into chasing these people down. I can't believe it is a significant percentage who are working cash in hand. Illegals sure - I get that. But EU nationals entitled to all rights and benefits? On one thread we have all immigrants taking out all possible benefits available from the UK and bleeding it dry, and then on another they are all living under the radar living cash in hand. I think the reality is much more normal. People like my wife's surgeon, from Poland. People like my dentist, originally from Iran, educated in Sweden, legally running a practice in the UK. Why do they need to be in the black labour market? My point is that the UK government does not know how many non-citizens there are living in the UK or what the net immigration figure is each year and can only estimate the number. It's a figure that varies widely depending on how it calculates the estimate. HMRC does not keep statistics on the citizenship of tax payers except where they are claiming non resident exemptions. It would presumably be possible to cross reference the citizenship they had when they first issued with a National Insurance number - but that isn't done. Statistics have been issued of the number of new National Insurance numbers issued to Eastern Europeans (and that's one source of the governments estimate of how many East Europeans there are in the UK) but there's no data as to how many of those NI numbers are in use. If they only have very low paid jobs their employers aren't even required to submit a year end return for them so HMRC wouldn't know about them even if they were asked to look. If they are being paid above the threshold their employer should be submitting P60 data to HMRC and if the government wanted to they could (theoretically) work out if they were still living in the UK from that - except they don't. Historically the Inland Revenue had a policy of non-cooperation with immigration and kept all their data secret from them because they wanted illegal immigrants to pay their taxes which they couldn't do if they got deported. Customs and Excise on the other hand had a much closer working relationship so with the formation of HMRC the old Inland Revenue attitude may well have changed - although it's equally possible that privacy laws (many of which came from EU regulations remember) still say the data can't be used for purposes other than what it was collected for. You may know your wife's surgeon is from Poland and your dentist is from Iran and Sweden but I very much doubt the UK government has that data to hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Why do they need to be in the black labour market? My point is that the UK government does not know how many non-citizens there are living in the UK or what the net immigration figure is each year and can only estimate the number. It's a figure that varies widely depending on how it calculates the estimate. HMRC does not keep statistics on the citizenship of tax payers except where they are claiming non resident exemptions. It would presumably be possible to cross reference the citizenship they had when they first issued with a National Insurance number - but that isn't done. Statistics have been issued of the number of new National Insurance numbers issued to Eastern Europeans (and that's one source of the governments estimate of how many East Europeans there are in the UK) but there's no data as to how many of those NI numbers are in use. If they only have very low paid jobs their employers aren't even required to submit a year end return for them so HMRC wouldn't know about them even if they were asked to look. If they are being paid above the threshold their employer should be submitting P60 data to HMRC and if the government wanted to they could (theoretically) work out if they were still living in the UK from that - except they don't. Historically the Inland Revenue had a policy of non-cooperation with immigration and kept all their data secret from them because they wanted illegal immigrants to pay their taxes which they couldn't do if they got deported. Customs and Excise on the other hand had a much closer working relationship so with the formation of HMRC the old Inland Revenue attitude may well have changed - although it's equally possible that privacy laws (many of which came from EU regulations remember) still say the data can't be used for purposes other than what it was collected for. You may know your wife's surgeon is from Poland and your dentist is from Iran and Sweden but I very much doubt the UK government has that data to hand. Good points. On such flimsy data government policy is being formulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Good points. On such flimsy data government policy is being formulated. Absolutely, so obsessed with cutting the civil service that any thought of running the country effectively is long gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 :biglaugh:Because I read your posts - and stop being such a ****, it really doesn't achieve anything. You said 'all those coming from the EU ... ' and now just 1 will prove your point? Pffffff. You really need to try harder.:biglaugh: You said I was a "hater".......you said I read the "daily mail" How do you know that? Rather than jump on someones post.....throw ludicrous assertions.....and name call.....wouldn't a calm sensible answer be more appropriate? I got involved because it was claimed the Indians would flood the country instead of the Poles (if we do a trade deal with them), I disagree with that statement because india is on the other side of the world.....much harder to get here from India than say Poland.....and most Indians do not have a pot to p#ss in....live on a couple of $ a day so have very little chance of affording the plane ticket. Is it not obvious to you why no one bothers much with this thread (or others like it) anymore.....it has you 3 economic experts on here preaching to anyone that dares dip their toe in the mix.....It seems it is not humanly possible that anyone else could possibly have an opinion on this topic without being labelled a racists.....hater....or daily mail reader lol unless they agree with you.....do you not get slightly bored of constantly bemoaning the state of the economy......our future prospects......or this tory government? .....anyway.....you 3 crack on.....you have made a good job of talking dribble for several months and you are still going strong......Incidentally has anything factual actually happened since the vote.....anything else you can get stuck into or are you still going over scenario after scenario until you cover all eventualities...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Why do they need to be in the black labour market? My point is that the UK government does not know how many non-citizens there are living in the UK or what the net immigration figure is each year and can only estimate the number. It's a figure that varies widely depending on how it calculates the estimate. HMRC does not keep statistics on the citizenship of tax payers except where they are claiming non resident exemptions. It would presumably be possible to cross reference the citizenship they had when they first issued with a National Insurance number - but that isn't done. Statistics have been issued of the number of new National Insurance numbers issued to Eastern Europeans (and that's one source of the governments estimate of how many East Europeans there are in the UK) but there's no data as to how many of those NI numbers are in use. If they only have very low paid jobs their employers aren't even required to submit a year end return for them so HMRC wouldn't know about them even if they were asked to look. If they are being paid above the threshold their employer should be submitting P60 data to HMRC and if the government wanted to they could (theoretically) work out if they were still living in the UK from that - except they don't. Historically the Inland Revenue had a policy of non-cooperation with immigration and kept all their data secret from them because they wanted illegal immigrants to pay their taxes which they couldn't do if they got deported. Customs and Excise on the other hand had a much closer working relationship so with the formation of HMRC the old Inland Revenue attitude may well have changed - although it's equally possible that privacy laws (many of which came from EU regulations remember) still say the data can't be used for purposes other than what it was collected for. You may know your wife's surgeon is from Poland and your dentist is from Iran and Sweden but I very much doubt the UK government has that data to hand. even so, to assume the figures are much greater than those quoted is biased. They could quite easily be less. I can only assume that it was in no ones interest to know the exact number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 You said I was a "hater".......you said I read the "daily mail" How do you know that? Rather than jump on someones post.....throw ludicrous assertions.....and name call.....wouldn't a calm sensible answer be more appropriate? I got involved because it was claimed the Indians would flood the country instead of the Poles (if we do a trade deal with them), I disagree with that statement because india is on the other side of the world.....much harder to get here from India than say Poland.....and most Indians do not have a pot to p#ss in....live on a couple of $ a day so have very little chance of affording the plane ticket. Is it not obvious to you why no one bothers much with this thread (or others like it) anymore.....it has you 3 economic experts on here preaching to anyone that dares dip their toe in the mix.....It seems it is not humanly possible that anyone else could possibly have an opinion on this topic without being labelled a racists.....hater....or daily mail reader lol unless they agree with you.....do you not get slightly bored of constantly bemoaning the state of the economy......our future prospects......or this tory government? .....anyway.....you 3 crack on.....you have made a good job of talking dribble for several months and you are still going strong......Incidentally has anything factual actually happened since the vote.....anything else you can get stuck into or are you still going over scenario after scenario until you cover all eventualities...... on the contrary. I'm in favour of leaving the EU. I just want it done in a responsible way for the right reasons. When you come out with red top quotes and assumptions it just makes you look like a fool. I don't mind if people voted to leave because they are racist. Be racist and proud I say. I just find it a bit sad when they try and back it up with 'real' reasons. Why wife voted to leave because she hates the banks and what they did with the GFC. Fair enough. Everyone has their reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 on the contrary. I'm in favour of leaving the EU. I just want it done in a responsible way for the right reasons. When you come out with red top quotes and assumptions it just makes you look like a fool. I don't mind if people voted to leave because they are racist. Be racist and proud I say. I just find it a bit sad when they try and back it up with 'real' reasons. Why wife voted to leave because she hates the banks and what they did with the GFC. Fair enough. Everyone has their reasons. I could not give a t#ss what you are in favour of.....makes no difference to me.....why not write to David Davies and let him know rather than spill your guts on here hour after hour ripping into anyone that says something you may not agree with? assumptions? ..... Red top Quotes? (what ever that is) I gave my opinion on the Indian v Pole migrant influx.....no assumption....just an opinion on what I think will or wont happen and I gave my reasons why. Assumption = something taken for granted. The assumptions are spewing from you....you assume I am a "hater" a "daily mail reader" a "racist" I am "ignorant" my knowledge of EU migrants is "biased" .......how do you know all of this?.....no seriously......how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I could not give a t#ss what you are in favour of.....makes no difference to me.....why not write to David Davies and let him know rather than spill your guts on here hour after hour ripping into anyone that says something you may not agree with? assumptions? ..... Red top Quotes? (what ever that is) I gave my opinion on the Indian v Pole migrant influx.....no assumption....just an opinion on what I think will or wont happen and I gave my reasons why. Assumption = something taken for granted. The assumptions are spewing from you....you assume I am a "hater" a "daily mail reader" a "racist" I am "ignorant" my knowledge of EU migrants is "biased" .......how do you know all of this?.....no seriously......how? whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Absolutely, so obsessed with cutting the civil service that any thought of running the country effectively is long gone.why do you have a problem with the UK becoming a tax haven, or the new Singapore as they are calling it. Are tax havens a bad place to live? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) why do you have a problem with the UK becoming a tax haven, or the new Singapore as they are calling it. Are tax havens a bad place to live? Singapore is run like a fiefdom, no one can step out of line, it runs on cheap labour and low cost housing, they build their infrastructure with imported labour from Bangladesh who live on site in very poor conditions, they do have democracy but it is hardly representative democracy, decisions are made that benefit the state not the populace, so comparisons with East Asian countries is, as always, rather misleading because the state very often treats its populace as factors of production rather than as citizens for whom the government acts in their best interest. At another level if companies receive govt subsidies and company taxation is reduced where will that reduction in tax income be made up from, there is only one remaining option and that is the working and buying man in the street, at the moment we are experiencing a period of unprecedented austerity as the govt tries to reduce the percentage of GDP spent on state functions and we are seeing those state functions either disappearing or investment into those remaining being reduced to the point where they are not functioning effectively. Without the tax receipts from industry and the finance sectors due to reductions in tax on them to simply keep them rooted here we will have to pay more and more or see social provision reduced to the bare minimum as in the US. Is this what the Tories are already planning with their unseemly haste to get into bed with Trump. Edited February 5, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Tax havens are good for any country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Tax havens are good for any country Point to one which gives its citizens a high standard of living with social provision which exceeds that enjoyed in the core countries of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perthbum Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Point to one which gives its citizens a high standard of living with social provision which exceeds that enjoyed in the core countries of the EU. Tax havens can be members of the EU....WISE UP FOR CHRISTS SAKE.. Germany Ireland jersey netherlands switzerland denmark austria Edited February 6, 2017 by Perthbum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Point to one which gives its citizens a high standard of living with social provision which exceeds that enjoyed in the core countries of the EU. channel islands? Luxembourg? Monaco? Edited February 6, 2017 by newjez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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