So Brexit now needs parliamentary approval?

[BacktoDemocracy]

privatisation and foreign students are another argument. But it does seem to be the favourite topic of the 'geriatric old daily mail reader' that the kids of today are not educated as well as the previous generation. A levels aren't as hard as they were twenty years ago. The intention of a levels is to compare students today. Not to compare students today with students twenty years ago. Whether an exam is harder or not than another year is irrelevant. An exam is designed to create a spread so universities can differentiate students. This is the only concern for exams. There is also a difference between exams and the course material being examined. If the course has been taught, how hard the exam is neither here nor there.

 

As I said I am not bothered where the students come from I am pointing out that the expansion of the Universities is based around a commercialisation of higher education which concentrates resources into one sector at the expense of others and this is having a perverse effect on education, aided and abetted by increasing privatisation of education, with a one size fits all approach by OFSTE.D

[newjez]

 

 

As I said I am not bothered where the students come from I am pointing out that the expansion of the Universities is based around a commercialisation of higher education which concentrates resources into one sector at the expense of others and this is having a perverse effect on education, aided and abetted by increasing privatisation of education, with a one size fits all approach by OFSTE.D

university education is certainly a different thing now than it was when I was at university.

[Keith and Linda]

Actually there are over 46 million registered voters in the UK. 52% of them did not vote leave. People aged over 50 are actually much more likely to turn up and vote than younger people.

 

Anyway, not all over 50s voted Leave but as every politician knows, you ignore the grey voters at your peril.

 

I thought 52% voted to leave or are you, in order to bolster your view, making a very big assumption of including those that did not vote would have voted to remain? the only safe assumption which can be made about those that did not vote is that they were not bothered which way it went thus agreeing with whatever the final result and thus in effect voting by default in favour of the winner! I will let you work out the %'s on that but I do know, using the reverse of your assumption it will be a lot higher than 52%!

[Keith and Linda]

Just reading Private Eye, some interesting statistics.

 

70% of grain exports to EU

 

90% of Lamb exports go to EU worth 300m, 40% of total production, if subjected to EU tariffs, once we leave EU, it would add 2689 pounds per tonne to price in EU.

 

At present large scale sales of milk to Ireland for cheese production would also be subject to tariffs making the trade uneconomic.

 

Whilst in EU tariffs imposed on imports such as beef, 2622 pounds per tonne and butter, 1635pounds per tonne, keep low cost food exporting countries such as Canada, Australia, USA, China, New Zealand from dumping low cost food into our market.

 

Which countries is the UK trying to tempt into trade deals, all of the above and what will be at the top of their free trade deal with the UK, access for their cheap agricultural producers.

 

What will be the options open to the UK, subsidise our farmers, massive cost to taxpayers, allow farming to naturally whither away like the manufacturing towns across the Midlands and North of England, with all the knock on effects of unemployment and social decline well at least it solves two problems , no need to worry about immigrants to do any harvesting. Bo Boom!!!! and where do we build all these houses everybody wants, ta dah!!!

 

All based on one side of a two letter word!

[Gbye grey sky]

I thought 52% voted to leave or are you, in order to bolster your view, making a very big assumption of including those that did not vote would have voted to remain? the only safe assumption which can be made about those that did not vote is that they were not bothered which way it went thus agreeing with whatever the final result and thus in effect voting by default in favour of the winner! I will let you work out the %'s on that but I do know, using the reverse of your assumption it will be a lot higher than 52%!

 

I was not making any assumption about the people who did not vote. I agree that the people who did not vote most likely had not formed an opinion either way which is hardly surprising given the misinformation put out by both sides.

 

I was simply making the valid point that older people tend to be more diligent in general about exercising their right to vote than younger people. This is why coming up to general elections the grey voter is assiduously courted by all parties.

[newjez]

Just reading Private Eye, some interesting statistics.

 

70% of grain exports to EU

 

90% of Lamb exports go to EU worth 300m, 40% of total production, if subjected to EU tariffs, once we leave EU, it would add 2689 pounds per tonne to price in EU.

 

At present large scale sales of milk to Ireland for cheese production would also be subject to tariffs making the trade uneconomic.

 

Whilst in EU tariffs imposed on imports such as beef, 2622 pounds per tonne and butter, 1635pounds per tonne, keep low cost food exporting countries such as Canada, Australia, USA, China, New Zealand from dumping low cost food into our market.

 

Which countries is the UK trying to tempt into trade deals, all of the above and what will be at the top of their free trade deal with the UK, access for their cheap agricultural producers.

 

What will be the options open to the UK, subsidise our farmers, massive cost to taxpayers, allow farming to naturally whither away like the manufacturing towns across the Midlands and North of England, with all the knock on effects of unemployment and social decline well at least it solves two problems , no need to worry about immigrants to do any harvesting. Bo Boom!!!! and where do we build all these houses everybody wants, ta dah!!!

I think tarrif are just the icing on the cake. There are other factors that aren't being considered. The low pound is driving the Vauxhall situation. But immigration is the key. I've already seen reports that immigration is falling significantly. Careful what you wish for they say. I look forward with dread when low immigration Britain raises it's ugly face. If we ever hit the tens of thousands mark, then tarrifs will be the least of our worries.

[Keith and Linda]

I was not making any assumption about the people who did not vote. I agree that the people who did not vote most likely had not formed an opinion either way which is hardly surprising given the misinformation put out by both sides.

 

I was simply making the valid point that older people tend to be more diligent in general about exercising their right to vote than younger people. This is why coming up to general elections the grey voter is assiduously courted by all parties.

 

I am confused, but them I am slightly older than yourself! Have you not said before that the out voters (the majority by all accounts being the grey ones) were duped by the all the doom and gloom and lies from the pro Brexit group, yet now you say they are assiduously courted by all parties! surely then with such courtship from all parties they must make informed decisions? and were able to do so even with all the misinformation and more readily able to do so than the younger ones. Whoops sorry but then I forgot that the older exit voters are uneducated aren't hey!! :wink:

From your post it would appear obvious that you need to stop blaming the older voter and start blaming the younger non voter for the exit result.

[newjez]

I am confused, but them I am slightly older than yourself! Have you not said before that the out voters (the majority by all accounts being the grey ones) were duped by the all the doom and gloom and lies from the pro Brexit group, yet now you say they are assiduously courted by all parties! surely then with such courtship from all parties they must make informed decisions? and were able to do so even with all the misinformation and more readily able to do so than the younger ones. Whoops sorry but then I forgot that the older exit voters are uneducated aren't hey!! :wink:

From your post it would appear obvious that you need to stop blaming the older voter and start blaming the younger non voter for the exit result.

I don't think we can make informed decisions even eight months after the vote.

[Perthbum]

 

 

privatisation and foreign students are another argument. But it does seem to be the favourite topic of the 'geriatric old daily mail reader' that the kids of today are not educated as well as the previous generation. A levels aren't as hard as they were twenty years ago. The intention of a levels is to compare students today. Not to compare students today with students twenty years ago. Whether an exam is harder or not than another year is irrelevant. An exam is designed to create a spread so universities can differentiate students. This is the only concern for exams. There is also a difference between exams and the course material being examined. If the course has been taught, how hard the exam is neither here nor there.

You don't understand, easier exams mean students of lesser ability can get an A as the exam and the way teachers almost give the answers means schools have 95% to 100% pass rates....harder exams means only say 35% will get an A it ain't rocket science.

[Ken]

Just reading Private Eye, some interesting statistics.

 

70% of grain exports to EU

 

90% of Lamb exports go to EU worth 300m, 40% of total production, if subjected to EU tariffs, once we leave EU, it would add 2689 pounds per tonne to price in EU.

 

At present large scale sales of milk to Ireland for cheese production would also be subject to tariffs making the trade uneconomic.

 

Whilst in EU tariffs imposed on imports such as beef, 2622 pounds per tonne and butter, 1635pounds per tonne, keep low cost food exporting countries such as Canada, Australia, USA, China, New Zealand from dumping low cost food into our market.

 

Which countries is the UK trying to tempt into trade deals, all of the above and what will be at the top of their free trade deal with the UK, access for their cheap agricultural producers.

 

What will be the options open to the UK, subsidise our farmers, massive cost to taxpayers, allow farming to naturally whither away like the manufacturing towns across the Midlands and North of England, with all the knock on effects of unemployment and social decline well at least it solves two problems , no need to worry about immigrants to do any harvesting. Bo Boom!!!! and where do we build all these houses everybody wants, ta dah!!!

 

You have to take into account the fact that the tariffs will also apply to UK imports from the EU. Certain farming sectors will be hard hit but the opportunities are there to switch production to other produce. Imports from outside of the EU to the UK will also replace EU produce more than they will UK produce as that is what will have shot up in price.

[Gbye grey sky]

I am confused, but them I am slightly older than yourself! Have you not said before that the out voters (the majority by all accounts being the grey ones) were duped by the all the doom and gloom and lies from the pro Brexit group, yet now you say they are assiduously courted by all parties! surely then with such courtship from all parties they must make informed decisions? and were able to do so even with all the misinformation and more readily able to do so than the younger ones. Whoops sorry but then I forgot that the older exit voters are uneducated aren't hey!! :wink:

From your post it would appear obvious that you need to stop blaming the older voter and start blaming the younger non voter for the exit result.

 

I feel you have jumped in half way through hence your confusion. The discussion here was based on a survey of voters and not my personal views. The survey highlighted voter demographics. Blame does not come into it though you seem somewhat obsessed about blaming people for some reason.

 

I would definitely be counted as an older uneducated voter fwiw.

 

I said that grey voters are courted in general elections. I also pointed out that both sides arguments produced more heat than light.

[BacktoDemocracy]

 

All based on one side of a two letter word!

And why won't they be subject to EU tariffs, all other agricultural exports to the the EU from non EU countries are subject to tariffs and we are leaving the single market and the customs union so we will not be EU members or do you think they are going to make an exception for the UK.

[BacktoDemocracy]

You don't understand, easier exams mean students of lesser ability can get an A as the exam and the way teachers almost give the answers means schools have 95% to 100% pass rates....harder exams means only say 35% will get an A it ain't rocket science.

It ain't rocket science to realise that if you don't have students getting pass grades to go to uni then the whole edifice falls over, the govt, for one, can't claim that schools are continously improving because of their policies, so they make sure that the syllabi are dumbed down and the syllabus is the only thing that is taught and teachers are measured simply on exam success so of course they are encouraged to spend time on exam prep because they are provided with examplary questions and answers by the exam boards because the exam boards are retained simply on how many schools use their exams and you get more schools when more students pass.

 

Simple isn't it once you introduce the profit motive into any social undertaking it becomes debased from its primary objective.

[BacktoDemocracy]

You have to take into account the fact that the tariffs will also apply to UK imports from the EU. Certain farming sectors will be hard hit but the opportunities are there to switch production to other produce. Imports from outside of the EU to the UK will also replace EU produce more than they will UK produce as that is what will have shot up in price.

 

Yes but surely the problem will be that whoever we do trade deals with will want to have low tariff access for their low production cost produce, for a number of countries with giant land masses that will be agricultural products and for countries like India that will be people and textiles?

I don’t see what much of the land used for lamb and dairy production could be switched to producing which could be produced at a low enough cost to make it attractively priced for export.

 

This is what grey sky keeps on making a point about with his concern about how complex free trade deals are.

 

My point also is that we are not going to be negotiating these deals from a position of strength, we will not be in a position to protect all of our trade sectors, I don't believe, and agriculture seems particularly exposed, it has received lots of EU subsidies as has all of the EU's agriculture simply to keep all of it operating.

 

Our farmers have by and large been operating in a highly protected market and now we are going to be outside of that protective wall which was put their by the EU to protect their farmers.

[newjez]

It ain't rocket science to realise that if you don't have students getting pass grades to go to uni then the whole edifice falls over, the govt, for one, can't claim that schools are continously improving because of their policies, so they make sure that the syllabi are dumbed down and the syllabus is the only thing that is taught and teachers are measured simply on exam success so of course they are encouraged to spend time on exam prep because they are provided with examplary questions and answers by the exam boards because the exam boards are retained simply on how many schools use their exams and you get more schools when more students pass.

 

Simple isn't it once you introduce the profit motive into any social undertaking it becomes debased from its primary objective.

I doubt the syllabus is dumbed down. But exams are easier because they are made for a different purpose than 1950. I imagine in 1950 10℅ went to uni, so the intent was to separate the 10℅ from the chaff. Now, they want a more even distribution of the middle, so the exams are structured differently. Having easier exams doesn't imply the syllabus is easier.

[BacktoDemocracy]

I doubt the syllabus is dumbed down. But exams are easier because they are made for a different purpose than 1950. I imagine in 1950 10℅ went to uni, so the intent was to separate the 10℅ from the chaff. Now, they want a more even distribution of the middle, so the exams are structured differently. Having easier exams doesn't imply the syllabus is easier.

 

I am unsure, talking to a mother with twin boys of 12, one high achiever, one struggling academically but extremely perceptive, academic one copes with academic syllabus but other doesn't and questions relevance of syllabus, but point is that the syllabus and teacher insist that their is only one way of reaching the answer required because that is the required outcome laid down for teaching the subject.

That to me is dumbing down and is not about education it is about teaching by rote learning, ensures the kids get thro the exams and ensures you have an army of unquestioning uni students who never question, I thought it was a right of passage as a student to question received wisdom now all they do is beaver away at producing stuff to get the internship with the biggest and best.

[caramac]

I am unsure, talking to a mother with twin boys of 12, one high achiever, one struggling academically but extremely perceptive, academic one copes with academic syllabus but other doesn't and questions relevance of syllabus, but point is that the syllabus and teacher insist that their is only one way of reaching the answer required because that is the required outcome laid down for teaching the subject.

That to me is dumbing down and is not about education it is about teaching by rote learning, ensures the kids get thro the exams and ensures you have an army of unquestioning uni students who never question, I thought it was a right of passage as a student to question received wisdom now all they do is beaver away at producing stuff to get the internship with the biggest and best.

 

 

Two of my daughters are at university and they'd agree that there are students on their courses who have been taught 'to the textbook' and never question anything. They expect to be spoonfed all the necessary information (which is impossible in the four hours contact time my middle one gets each week). There are more who can think critically and have been taught to question - they're the ones currently sitting on high grades and I'm sure future employers can spot the difference, just as they're aware that degrees awarded from different universities have different 'value'.

Sadly, Mr Gove's changes to the education system are going to do nothing to help the next generation become more thinking, critical learners. Apparently, children are just receptacles to be filled with facts.

[Perthbum]

 

 

I think tarrif are just the icing on the cake. There are other factors that aren't being considered. The low pound is driving the Vauxhall situation. But immigration is the key. I've already seen reports that immigration is falling significantly. Careful what you wish for they say. I look forward with dread when low immigration Britain raises it's ugly face. If we ever hit the tens of thousands mark, then tarrifs will be the least of our worries.

You got a link?

[newjez]

I am unsure, talking to a mother with twin boys of 12, one high achiever, one struggling academically but extremely perceptive, academic one copes with academic syllabus but other doesn't and questions relevance of syllabus, but point is that the syllabus and teacher insist that their is only one way of reaching the answer required because that is the required outcome laid down for teaching the subject.

That to me is dumbing down and is not about education it is about teaching by rote learning, ensures the kids get thro the exams and ensures you have an army of unquestioning uni students who never question, I thought it was a right of passage as a student to question received wisdom now all they do is beaver away at producing stuff to get the internship with the biggest and best.

again that is a different subject. Teaching to a curriculum has advantages and disadvantages. It takes creativity away from teachers. But it does ensure the same standards. I'm not a teacher but I'm married to one, and the word Gove is not spoken in our household.

[VERYSTORMY]

I doubt the syllabus is dumbed down. But exams are easier because they are made for a different purpose than 1950. I imagine in 1950 10℅ went to uni, so the intent was to separate the 10℅ from the chaff. Now, they want a more even distribution of the middle, so the exams are structured differently. Having easier exams doesn't imply the syllabus is easier.

 

Actually, the syllabus is massively dumbed down. For example, in math, advanced trig, advanced mechanics and even complex number theory or not touched on in A level math. I commenced astrophysics at uni via a mature student foundation year that was based on what the A level syllabus used to be. We covered all of these. Today, students are put into a remedial math course they have to complete out of term time hours.

 

I have found the the same with other sciences - chemistry, physics and biology.

 

I undertook the A levels in some twice as I was not confident in remembering a lot over the years, but was very shocked.

[VERYSTORMY]

As for critical thinking, I was very lucky as we had staff who expressed it well in a lecture on my first day which I will never forget. The deputy head of department stated "Everything you are about to learn for the next three years is almost certainly wrong. Your job, will be, in the future to prove we are wrong. Our job is to give you the skills to do so".

[BacktoDemocracy]

again that is a different subject. Teaching to a curriculum has advantages and disadvantages. It takes creativity away from teachers. But it does ensure the same standards. I'm not a teacher but I'm married to one, and the word Gove is not spoken in our household.

 

Yes agreed, but what that produces is well functioning drones, no criticism of teachers intended, but the ideas did come from places like S korea, china and Singapore where people are seen as a factor of production who you do not want to ever question there position in the hierarchy and it fits the Tories belief in that approach whilst they maintain their public schools for their own elite who will run the system,

 

A bleak view but wasn't that what 1984 and A Brave New World were alluding to.

Edited February 16, 2017 by BacktoDemocracy

[newjez]

I was actually talking about GCSEs but hey.

 

But as for a level

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35632198

Edited February 16, 2017 by newjez

[Keith and Linda]

I don't think we can make informed decisions even eight months after the vote.

 

So voters went with their own ideals/preferences/dreams/gut feeling? nothing much wrong with that, and we can now see where the majority stands!

[Gbye grey sky]

Yes but surely the problem will be that whoever we do trade deals with will want to have low tariff access for their low production cost produce, for a number of countries with giant land masses that will be agricultural products and for countries like India that will be people and textiles?

I don’t see what much of the land used for lamb and dairy production could be switched to producing which could be produced at a low enough cost to make it attractively priced for export.

 

This is what grey sky keeps on making a point about with his concern about how complex free trade deals are.

 

My point also is that we are not going to be negotiating these deals from a position of strength, we will not be in a position to protect all of our trade sectors, I don't believe, and agriculture seems particularly exposed, it has received lots of EU subsidies as has all of the EU's agriculture simply to keep all of it operating.

 

Our farmers have by and large been operating in a highly protected market and now we are going to be outside of that protective wall which was put their by the EU to protect their farmers.

 

Agree fully. May and her Brexit team are stuck between a rock and a hard place on trade. Either you are a free trade advocate and willing to allow sectors such as agriculture to be virtually wiped out by cheap imports or you protect sectors with tariffs and/or subsidies in which case that is not 'free trade'.

 

To use the USA as an example, Trump is going to be delighted with a free trade deal with the UK as it opens up a market for US producers and manufacturers which was protected within the EU. What does the UK produce that is cheaper than the USA that could undercut American producers? Obama was a global free trade advocate but this became so unpopular in the US even Hillary ended up distances herself from this. America now equates global free trade with losing jobs.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Gbye grey sky