the bottler Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]33724[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommie Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 For those looking to Greece and thinking the EU is heading into bankruptcy and therefore we need to get out.... There is a flaw to this logic. The debt of an individual country (Greece for example) has no bearing on the free trade zone or free travel aspects of the EU. Of course, the more prosperous other countries are, then by default you could assume they will buy more of your export products, but the EU commission is not reliant on a sound financial health of any individual countries. Greece's problem is quite simple that its people don't pay tax... and at the same time it has a ludicrously socialist welfare system (for example, anyone deemed to have a hard job gets to retire at 50 - a baker for example)... and therefore the government is naturally spending more than it collects. I would't bail Greece out, simply because it needs to fix its own problems, as we in Britain or Australia have to. But, this has no bearing on EU membership or to that matter the health of the EU project. I think Britain achieve good economic benefits for Britain within the EU. Our workers have had a lot more protection given to them than the UK government would naturally do. Richard Branson dit a really good article today on life before and the benefits of the EU. In a nut shell he was Pro EU in a big way and talked about how difficult it was to trade with Europe before we were within the EU... The Daily Mail is backing Brexit - the Editor is married to Michael Gove, hence there is quite a bit of boas comes into there stories.... So they published this online and quickly dropped it from the feed... I've copied the link below... its a good read.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3648663/If-vote-Leave-won-t-kick-establishment-b-s-ll-shoot-foot-RICHARD-BRANSON-s-voting-Remain.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooba Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I would't bail Greece out Neither would I. But we don't decide that do we.. the EU does. If I'm not mistaken, Britain paid that last demand from the EU despite the PM saying they wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommie Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 The EU didn;t bail out Greece... individual countries from the Euro (currency) and the IMF loaned them money... Its not from the EU Commission... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooba Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Then what was is that Cameron feverishly said we will not pay, but paid anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommie Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Then what was is that Cameron feverishly said we will not pay, but paid anyway? Paying into the EU budget, even if its contributing to a budget overspend isn't the same as bailing out Greece.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooba Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Paying into the EU budget, even if its contributing to a budget overspend isn't the same as bailing out Greece.... That is one weak ass argument. If the EU demands extra money, the UK has to pay. Just because it goes through some sort of intermediary department or is given a different name it's the same thing. When there's another Greek bailout there will be additional "budget shortfalls". The hands will put dipping into our pockets again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 In the past 20 years, Welsh urban centres have benefited from £4bn from Brussels, particularly in the Valleys and Cardiff. The poorest areas of Wales qualify for EU regional funding, with £1.8bn of European Structural Funds investment expected for the 2014-2020 period. According to the Welsh Government: “Since 2007, EU projects have created 11,925 enterprises and 36,970 (gross) jobs, assisted 72,700 people into work, 229,110 to gain qualifications, and 56,055 into further learning.” The Wales Governance Centre claims that “Wales’ net benefit from the EU equated to around £79 per head in 2014.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the bottler Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]33727[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooba Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Well if the Washington Post thinks it's a mistake, clearly we're all wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Leave campaigners say that they want power returned to the UK. Have any of them stopped to wonder why then the current and every former prime minister of the UK wants to Remain? Why would they not want this power? Have you wondered why Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP want an independent Scotland to be in the EU? Is it a remote possibility that they all think that the country that they govern is better off in the EU? The only politicians supporting Leave are on the fringe and would have limited chance of influencing anything other than by persuading people to vote Leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]33727[/ATTACH] Do they farm trout in rivers and lakes? The thing is, sometimes people are so busy looking for faults they can't see the truth. The EU is far from perfect and needs reform. That is without question. But so does the UK . Should we succeed from that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 What it boils down to is this. Are you British or a traitor. Yes, I use the word traitor because that is what it amounts to. You want to give sovereignty to a foreign power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 What it boils down to is this. Are you British or a traitor. Yes, I use the word traitor because that is what it amounts to. You want to give sovereignty to a foreign power. The EU is not a sovereign entity so what 'foreign power' do you feel that Britain is ceding sovereignty to? It is this sort of emotive language that has already led to the death of an MP and mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher1 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 In Manchester, England. My son lives there, near the Uni and says it is dreadful - looks like Calais. However, the occupants are mainly Lithuanians and other Eastern Europeans.[ATTACH=CONFIG]33665[/ATTACH] It has also been a feature in newspapers and on TV. The last time I saw homeless people living in tents was in the park near Central Station in Sydney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amibovered Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I wonder which Nation will be next to have a referendum? Italy maybe, 5 Star seem to be going great guns there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amibovered Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Leave campaigners say that they want power returned to the UK. Have any of them stopped to wonder why then the current and every former prime minister of the UK wants to Remain? Why would they not want this power? Have you wondered why Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP want an independent Scotland to be in the EU? Is it a remote possibility that they all think that the country that they govern is better off in the EU? The only politicians supporting Leave are on the fringe and would have limited chance of influencing anything other than by persuading people to vote Leave. Because their mates at the big multinationals don't want the cheap labour cut off, or any restrictions on trade, you don't think the E.U is for the benefit of the people do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Because their mates at the big multinationals don't want the cheap labour cut off, or any restrictions on trade, you don't think the E.U is for the benefit of the people do you? The EU does benefit ordinary people in many ways. Multinationals can just relocate to where the cheap labour is if that is their prime motivation. Make no mistake, the rich and powerful can just move their wealth, it is the man in the street who will suffer the consequences of Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 What it boils down to is this. Are you British or a traitor. Yes, I use the word traitor because that is what it amounts to. You want to give sovereignty to a foreign power. Sovereignty infers a regal autocracy, I am sure that most Europeans see themselves as part of a democracy which they control, they give power to their elected leaders, here in the UK Power is in the hands of an elite who control our access to it and that is why there is so much dislike by these right wingers, the EU is loosening the elites stranglehold on power and they are fighting tooth and nail to take that power back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 What it boils down to is this. Are you British or a traitor. Yes, I use the word traitor because that is what it amounts to. You want to give sovereignty to a foreign power. It is this kind of emotive language which has inflamed and radicalised people with little understanding of the complexities of the problems posed by globalisation and international capitalism, there are no simple answers any more and to pretend that there are leads one into totalitarianism. Tyrants throughout history have played the populist simple message and have always collapsed because either the world around them realised that the simple message didn't deal with the problem or because their henchmen found it impossible to impose the simple message and make the complexities go away, but what is an e enduring reality is that it is always the little people who have to make the sacrifices when the simply message and the simple solutions simply do not work and that is true from the ancient civilisations to the war on Communism in Asia to China's great leap forward, to the war on drugs and self defence with guns in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the bottler Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]33730[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 [ATTACH=CONFIG]33730[/ATTACH] Democracy, you mean what passes for democracy in the UK, a govt elected by just over a third of voters now gets to tell the other 66% how their country will be run, now that's real democracy for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 The people can have some semblance of their own government, as long as that government behaves within the frame imposed upon it. They can even pass some local regulations, as long as those regulations are in no way what so ever in contravention of the higher power. The majority of the people go along with it, many even finding it not overly oppressive and the leaders at the local level relatively benign. Some, even assist the new power and most are at best reluctant to help any force to take back control for fear of the possible negative outcomes that all may suffer. For many, things don't seem too bad, or at least not as bad as many fear things could get if people didn't go along with it. They are fed a lot of lies in the form of so called news, many of course know and can recognise the lies. Though some seem to believe them. Most knew that at best, their attitude was unethical and it was certainly the case that a significant number of them were committing treason. This is a paraphrase from a book I am currently reading. Does it sound familiar? Its actually not about the EU. It is about the occupation of the channel islands in the second world war. So sorry, the word traitor, may be a emotive word. But, it does not stop it being correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher1 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 The people can have some semblance of their own government, as long as that government behaves within the frame imposed upon it. They can even pass some local regulations, as long as those regulations are in no way what so ever in contravention of the higher power. The majority of the people go along with it, many even finding it not overly oppressive and the leaders at the local level relatively benign. Some, even assist the new power and most are at best reluctant to help any force to take back control for fear of the possible negative outcomes that all may suffer. For many, things don't seem too bad, or at least not as bad as many fear things could get if people didn't go along with it. They are fed a lot of lies in the form of so called news, many of course know and can recognise the lies. Though some seem to believe them. Most knew that at best, their attitude was unethical and it was certainly the case that a significant number of them were committing treason. This is a paraphrase from a book I am currently reading. Does it sound familiar? Its actually not about the EU. It is about the occupation of the channel islands in the second world war. So sorry, the word traitor, may be a emotive word. But, it does not stop it being correct. Poor argument, very poor defence. 1. Where is the reference for this book about the occupation of the Channel Islands? 2. A quote from an unknown author stating that in her/his opinion a significant number of residents of the Channel Islands committed treason during the occupation in WW2 has a link with the current situation which is tenuous at best. 3. An accepted way of supporting your argument (still not proving it) would be to seek evidence from more than one reliable source. Simply saying it does not make it so. Neither does citing the comments of another unidentified individual. Even if those comments are in print. The word traitor remains offensive. It is also both incorrect and inappropriate. What a shame you have continued to pull down the tone of what was a decent discussion on the whole. Who moderates the moderators please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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