Tax Hike Disaster.

[The Fisheys]

The full, disastrous scale of the confiscatory 50p top tax rate is now becoming clear.

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs confirmed that for year 2009/2010 there were 16,000 people in the UK declaring an income of over £1,000,000 per year. Their top rate of income tax was 40%.

Once the ideologically driven, but economically illiterate 50p top rate was brought in, their numbers crashed to 6,000.

To paraphrase, "when the taxman gets tough, the rich get off!"

In cold, hard cash terms the annual loss to us all was an absolute minimum of £4 Billion Pounds a year.

This shortfall has had to be met by those people who couldn't relocate, the poor, people on benefit, pensioners, people on minimum wage, and students.

So next time Millipede and his cronies attempt to seduce you by blathering on about "tax handouts for the rich" just remember what the reality actually is.

There is a maximum amount you can squeeze out of anyone, and it is always the lowest income groups who suffer when taxes are high.

It may be currently fashionable to "Send in the Clowns," just remember the is one group of clowns you never want to let near the Treasury again..................and they wear red roses!

[pablo]

The full, disastrous scale of the confiscatory 50p top tax rate is now becoming clear.

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs confirmed that for year 2009/2010 there were 16,000 people in the UK declaring an income of over £1,000,000 per year. Their top rate of income tax was 40%.

Once the ideologically driven, but economically illiterate 50p top rate was brought in, their numbers crashed to 6,000.

To paraphrase, "when the taxman gets tough, the rich get off!"

In cold, hard cash terms the annual loss to us all was an absolute minimum of £4 Billion Pounds a year.

This shortfall has had to be met by those people who couldn't relocate, the poor, people on benefit, pensioners, people on minimum wage, and students.

So next time Millipede and his cronies attempt to seduce you by blathering on about "tax handouts for the rich" just remember what the reality actually is.

There is a maximum amount you can squeeze out of anyone, and it is always the lowest income groups who suffer when taxes are high.

It may be currently fashionable to "Send in the Clowns," just remember the is one group of clowns you never want to let near the Treasury again..................and they wear red roses!

 

Yes,but there was 300,00 thousand paying 50% tax,so maybe more revenue off those 300,000 thousand paying an extra 10% "might" make up for the loss of those 10,000 millionaires taxes?

Have you got any links to where it cost us 4 Billion a year minimum?

Have you got any links to show it was the "poor and needy" who made up the shortfall?

Just wondering thats all,because i know you take an unbiased stance,so i'd like to see any links on it,because you state it all as fact's

 

I knew about the 10 thousand disappearing millionaires a while back,not sure if i mentioned it on here tbh,i agree the poorest do suffer most when "some" taxes are high tho,like V.A.T...

 

Did you ever read the articles by Richard Murphy for Tax Research .org.uk? very interesting,loads of facts,have a look,it might interest you

 

Btw,ive an open mind on the 50% tax rate,open minds,theyre great......

[Perthbum]

The full, disastrous scale of the confiscatory 50p top tax rate is now becoming clear.

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs confirmed that for year 2009/2010 there were 16,000 people in the UK declaring an income of over £1,000,000 per year. Their top rate of income tax was 40%.

Once the ideologically driven, but economically illiterate 50p top rate was brought in, their numbers crashed to 6,000.

To paraphrase, "when the taxman gets tough, the rich get off!"

In cold, hard cash terms the annual loss to us all was an absolute minimum of £4 Billion Pounds a year.

This shortfall has had to be met by those people who couldn't relocate, the poor, people on benefit, pensioners, people on minimum wage, and students.

So next time Millipede and his cronies attempt to seduce you by blathering on about "tax handouts for the rich" just remember what the reality actually is.

There is a maximum amount you can squeeze out of anyone, and it is always the lowest income groups who suffer when taxes are high.

It may be currently fashionable to "Send in the Clowns," just remember the is one group of clowns you never want to let near the Treasury again..................and they wear red roses!

What a load of crap...your figures are just made up....bullshite......all this crap that people will leave is just rubbish that has been proven time and time again.

[noworriesmate]

What a load of crap...your figures are just made up....bullshite......all this crap that people will leave is just rubbish that has been proven time and time again.

 

LOL - people making up figures, whatever next!!

 

​NWM

[Perthbum]

LOL - people making up figures, whatever next!!

 

​NWM

I know it is annoying mate but it happens on all forums....cannot understand it myself.

[Love Shoes]

I know it is annoying mate but it happens on all forums....cannot understand it myself.

 

pot and kettle :wink: you should know, :wink: takes a joker to know a joker ( so to speak) :twitcy:

[VERYSTORMY]

I dont know the authenticity of the figures, but it would not surprise me at all. The average salary in my job is in excess of 100k a year and 150k is not unusual. Everyone i know jumped out of UK tax residence with the 50% band. Dont know anyone that has paid it. Everyone simply thought it was too much and tipped them over the edge of what was and was not worth the hassle of being non domicile for tax.

[The Fisheys]

What a load of crap...your figures are just made up....bullshite......all this crap that people will leave is just rubbish that has been proven time and time again.

 

I hope it's me you are saying made it up not Pablo, (on the post just above yours), coz he will be we'll cross with you!

I didn't say they will leave, I said they had, again, as he confirmed.

​

[jimmyay1]

What a load of crap...your figures are just made up....bullshite......all this crap that people will leave is just rubbish that has been proven time and time again.

 

I'm sure there are many that have done just that. Just the drip, drip of tax increases, the politically inspired fostering of jealously and denigration of success amongst the population, the little jbes, the class consciousness and the politics of envy.

 

It all just gets so tedious.

[newjez]

I think they would do much better at making individuals and companies pay the tax they currently should rather than looking at higher rates. It is very easy to dodge tax in the UK. The only downside is that it costs money to do so. So you have to weigh the gains against the costs.

 

​Close the loop holes - and they can start with google and amazon.

[The Fisheys]

Yes,but there was 300,00 thousand paying 50% tax,so maybe more revenue off those 300,000 thousand paying an extra 10% "might" make up for the loss of those 10,000 millionaires taxes?

Have you got any links to where it cost us 4 Billion a year minimum?

Have you got any links to show it was the "poor and needy" who made up the shortfall?

Just wondering thats all,because i know you take an unbiased stance,so i'd like to see any links on it,because you state it all as fact's

 

I knew about the 10 thousand disappearing millionaires a while back,not sure if i mentioned it on here tbh,i agree the poorest do suffer most when "some" taxes are high tho,like V.A.T...

 

Did you ever read the articles by Richard Murphy for Tax Research .org.uk? very interesting,loads of facts,have a look,it might interest you

 

Btw,ive an open mind on the 50% tax rate,open minds,theyre great......

 

 

OK I will partially cede the first point that by overcharging some, you make up for some / all the lost revenue from the absent millionaires. When the cut to 45p top rate was announced the Chancellor did claim that the top rate of 50p had led to a loss of income tax overall, (rather like the Carbon Tax in Australia), and his assertion was challenged on an ideological basis, not a factual, or economic basis.

 

The £4 Billion figure was arrived at by calculating the lost Income Tax and National Insurance from 10,000 people each previously declaring a taxable income of £1,000,000 each, then simple arithmetic to multiply that by 10,000 people. I did not account for the lost VAT they would pay on their purchases in the UK, which would be substantial, and also by assuming an income of only £1,000,000 I took no account of their actual average income; therefore the actual loss is far, far higher.

 

Given that overall public spending did not fall, but actually rose, then the shortfall has to have been met by the rest of the UK taxpayers, and that burden falls disproportionately on the lowest income groups, as you identified, VAT was hiked up.

 

With taxation policy it all boils down to whether you take an idealogical or pragmatic view of its purpose. I personally believe we should try to maximise the tax take, leaving the lowest income groups out of taxation altogether. Labour have moved in this direction in Australia, the tax free allowance is $18,000.

 

I would certainly abolish National Insurance, as it is charged disproportionately highly on lower incomes. I would also reduce Corporation Tax Rates to compete, look at the developing scandal with google. You cannot really blame a multinational company for not volunteering to pay excessive taxes when they have a choice, but you can certainly protest when a competitor EU country sets its Corporation Tax levels so low that they go bust, then go, cap in hand to the IMF and the EU for a bailout,...........underwritten by the UK taxpayers.

[Guest chris955]

Even without the evidence it is just commonsense that if you raise the tax rate unreasonably you will get increased tax avoidance and some will leave altogether, this happened, it isnt imaginary and I realise it probably annoys Labour supporters.

[Parley]

The worst tax in UK is death duties. Absolutely abhorrent.

 

Thank goodness we don't have that in Australia.

Although unluckily for me, my dad was English, living in UK.

Although luckily for me I did get an exchange rate of 2.55 to 1 back then.

[Paul1Perth]

I think they would do much better at making individuals and companies pay the tax they currently should rather than looking at higher rates. It is very easy to dodge tax in the UK. The only downside is that it costs money to do so. So you have to weigh the gains against the costs.

 

​Close the loop holes - and they can start with google and amazon.

 

I wrote on another thread about Rio Tinto here. They haven't paid hardly any of the super profits tax and the way they did it was move losses from Canada to Aus and make it look like they hadn't made anything in Aus. The more money you have, be that company or individual, the more you seem to be able to get away with.

 

I have a cousin who's husband works on a floating rig. Earns mega bucks and goes all over the world. They bought a house in France years ago and even though my Cousin still lives in Robin Hoods Bay she just gets a flight to France and meets him there when he gets time off.

[Parley]

Everyone pays as little tax as they are legally permitted to.

​Anyone who doesn't is stupid.

[pablo]

OK I will partially cede the first point that by overcharging some, you make up for some / all the lost revenue from the absent millionaires. When the cut to 45p top rate was announced the Chancellor did claim that the top rate of 50p had led to a loss of income tax overall, (rather like the Carbon Tax in Australia), and his assertion was challenged on an ideological basis, not a factual, or economic basis.

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# I honestly wont believe tax revenue's fell "because" of the 50% tax rate until i see tax revenue figures for the group that jumped from 45 to 50% tbh,does "anyone" have these btw?i dont know.

Plus,to use an old adage, he would say that wouldnt he?i honestly dont care if the high tax band is 30% or 60%,i just want whats best for uk plc,thats all#

 

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The £4 Billion figure was arrived at by calculating the lost Income Tax and National Insurance from 10,000 people each previously declaring a taxable income of £1,000,000 each, then simple arithmetic to multiply that by 10,000 people. I did not account for the lost VAT they would pay on their purchases in the UK, which would be substantial, and also by assuming an income of only £1,000,000 I took no account of their actual average income; therefore the actual loss is far, far higher.

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#Again tho,you havent included the "supposedly higher" revenue from the other 290 thou paying the higher rate, in your assertion that the uk has lost 4 billion#

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Given that overall public spending did not fall, but actually rose, then the shortfall has to have been met by the rest of the UK taxpayers, and that burden falls disproportionately on the lowest income groups, as you identified, VAT was hiked up.

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#Public spending as a figure will naturally rise every yr tho wont it? "but" as a % of gdp its been falling since 09/10,so im not sure tax hikes and vat rises were really justified #

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With taxation policy it all boils down to whether you take an idealogical or pragmatic view of its purpose. I personally believe we should try to maximise the tax take, leaving the lowest income groups out of taxation altogether. Labour have moved in this direction in Australia, the tax free allowance is $18,000.

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#Theres nothing idealogical in the way i think about taxation tbh,i wouldnt want to slaughter people just because they've made a few bob,like i say its just whats best for uk plc for me#

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I would certainly abolish National Insurance, as it is charged disproportionately highly on lower incomes. I would also reduce Corporation Tax Rates to compete, look at the developing scandal with google. You cannot really blame a multinational company for not volunteering to pay excessive taxes when they have a choice, but you can certainly protest when a competitor EU country sets its Corporation Tax levels so low that they go bust, then go, cap in hand to the IMF and the EU for a bailout,...........underwritten by the UK taxpayers.

 

No,i dont "blame" companies for using legal means to avoid tax,i find some of the miniscule figures paid on billions earned in this country morally repugnant tho,regardless whether its legal or not,ive said it before,let HMRC publish the names of these companies and then we have the choice to use them or not

 

Also,the thing is this,at "what" low rate do we stop being browbeaten by these companies?

Our rate isnt really high at 24%, compared to others like Germany(for instance) at nearly 30%,so say we drop it to 12.5% like Ireland,will they "still" avoid it by then going to the Channel Islands,or the I.O.M at 0%?

Theres only so far we can allow ourselves to be dictated to by these multi nationals,its time the gvnmt at least "tried" to make taxation laws less complex and with that the chance of more and more loop holes being created.

I dont begrudge them making billions at all,thats why they exist obviously,but come on ,,its not like you or i look at some of these companies tax contributions and say to ourselves "jesus thats "low" on what they earned"

Its more a case of looking at the revenues from some of them and saying" wtf!thats ridiculous,a "pittance",and a lot of the time it is,the gvnmt has gotta do "something",theyre taking our £ and its going elsewhere,trillions of £",its wrong,legal or not

 

Oh,edited to add,forgot to say,i agree about those on minimum/low pay to be taken out of tax,i'm not rich at all,but another 1% tax wouldnt kill me

 

Right,its Friday night,enuf seriousness for me, for now at least

[newjez]

I did think about doing the Jimmy Carr tax scam once, back in the days when I was contracting. I didn't, not because I was worried about the IR, but because I was worried they would do a Cyprus on me. The IR have small balls and no teeth.

 

Everyone pays as little tax as they are legally permitted to.

​Anyone who doesn't is stupid.

[Gareth 666]

I think they would do much better at making individuals and companies pay the tax they currently should rather than looking at higher rates. It is very easy to dodge tax in the UK. The only downside is that it costs money to do so. So you have to weigh the gains against the costs.

 

​Close the loop holes - and they can start with google and amazon.

 

Totally agree. And once you've sorted Google and Amazon you can chase the robbing b@strds at Shell and BP for all the extra money the made by fixing fuel prices for the last ten years and channel that back into the economy. That might build a few hospitals and buy some school books.

[VERYSTORMY]

I wrote on another thread about Rio Tinto here. They haven't paid hardly any of the super profits tax and the way they did it was move losses from Canada to Aus and make it look like they hadn't made anything in Aus. The more money you have, be that company or individual, the more you seem to be able to get away with.

 

I have a cousin who's husband works on a floating rig. Earns mega bucks and goes all over the world. They bought a house in France years ago and even though my Cousin still lives in Robin Hoods Bay she just gets a flight to France and meets him there when he gets time off.

 

Including royalties and fees, the average paid in Oz by miners is huge - well over 50% and is one of the reasons for the downturn in Oz. Its simply becoming too hard to do business. People only see the company tax. They dont see things like everytime i want to drill holes - which is 365 days a year, 24 hours a day - i have to complete a POW. That costs time and money to complete and fees to the department. Then i have to have an environmental inspection - that cost about 10k, then there is the heritage survey - another 20k and so on

[Rupert]

.

This shortfall has had to be met by those people who couldn't relocate, the poor, people on benefit, pensioners, people on minimum wage, and students.

 

 

I wonder where the 10,000 all went, I find that figure quite doubtful to be honest.

 

Your above sentence is just absurd too, in fact if there is a "tax gap" to be plugged, it will most certainly be plugged by the middle classes.

[The Fisheys]

I wonder where the 10,000 all went, I find that figure quite doubtful to be honest.

 

Your above sentence is just absurd too, in fact if there is a "tax gap" to be plugged, it will most certainly be plugged by the middle classes.

 

In answer to your first point, certainly not to France, now safely back in recession with their lunatic top tax rates, but the really good news is that since the coalition cut the top tax rate to 45% 4,000 more people with incomes over £1,000,000 are now paying tax in the UK.

 

The "tax gap" is being plugged by the VAT hike poor people pay on their Gas, Water, and Electric Bills.

[pablo]

In answer to your first point, certainly not to France, now safely back in recession with their lunatic top tax rates, but the really good news is that since the coalition cut the top tax rate to 45% 4,000 more people with incomes over £1,000,000 are now paying tax in the UK.

 

The "tax gap" is being plugged by the VAT hike poor people pay on their Gas, Water, and Electric Bills.

 

Not forgetting the 290 thousand paying 5% less tax

[flag of convenience]

I'm sure there are many that have done just that. Just the drip, drip of tax increases, the politically inspired fostering of jealously and denigration of success amongst the population, the little jbes, the class consciousness and the politics of envy.

 

It all just gets so tedious.

 

More a case of middle and lower income fed up with being the ones who pay a disportionate level of income to the Inland Revenue. The rich have avoidance schemes in place and will continue to do so regardless what the rate of tax is.

My understanding in the UK the rate has been cut for the wealthy so don't get what the fuss is about.

 

Meanwhile folk in the middle have seen their tax credits and family allowance squeezed and are worse off by an average of around GBP 900 since 2010......

[VERYSTORMY]

The issue comes down to what is a fair tax. Nobody has yet to show me why the more you earn the higher rate you pay is a fair system.

[Rupert]

In answer to your first point, certainly not to France, now safely back in recession with their lunatic top tax rates, but the really good news is that since the coalition cut the top tax rate to 45% 4,000 more people with incomes over £1,000,000 are now paying tax in the UK.

 

The "tax gap" is being plugged by the VAT hike poor people pay on their Gas, Water, and Electric Bills.

 

 

Oh right yes of course, I forgot that VAT was only paid by "poor people" on their utility bills. Good pick up...

 

:confused: