Thatcher Dead

[VERYSTORMY]

If the mines were all profitable and productive, why hasnt someone opened them up again?

 

One or two have. The big issue is that during the strike, a lot flooded. Once a underground mine floods then it is the end. One of the darters things about the miners strike is that the original plan to withdraw subsidy from mines that were costing too much would have seen a small number close. Because, the strikers wouldn't let people in to man the pumps, most went. They shot themselves.

[VERYSTORMY]

And the same old rants from the right. Question Is Britain beter off today after so many decades of Thatcher induced policies? Right, as ever full of their own importance and sod everyone else look,just how successful I am in terms of lotsa money.

 

In essence yes. Britain is better off. One of the problems the UK has always had is the tall poppy syndrome. It likes to put down anyone that is successful. When a person starts a bushiness, does well, is successful, makes a lot of money. That person needs to be held up as a pilot. Something to aim for. When a person, gets an education that allows them to have a successful and yes, well off life, that person needs to be held up as a pilot. Instead, the left persistently want to bring people down to the lowest denominator. The right want to bring people up to the highest.

 

I have done a lot of voluntary work with kids that have been expelled from school. Most look up to people they know that live on their estate, claim benefits and do smallmscale dealing and other crimes. I say to them that no. Get an education. That porche is in reach, that big house that you can only think of breaking into can actually be yours. That to me is the way foreword. Yes, I have used my own background. I was expelled at 14. Had my first kid at 15. Homeless at 17 and living in the shop door way of BHS in Middlesbrough. Discovered education at 21. And now have a pretty nice lifestyle. Have I been greedy? Maybe, I am driven. I have demanded better bucks at work. I have worked hard for what I have. I will in two years become GM of of my first mine. I should be able to retire at 50-55. My wife, doesnt want for anything. We both give back to the community both as volunteers and direct cash.

 

But according to the left this is all wrong.

 

I don't want the poor to be well looked after. I don't want poor.

[flag of convenience]

Unless you have run these statistics through a Chi-squared test to determine the significance of them,

then you can't possibly comment on whether the sample size is too small or not to draw any real conclusions from.

 

Glenda Jackson says she has had around 900 e mails or tweets. She has read around 400 she claims and only 10% were against her speech in Parliment.

 

Does this suggests 90% of the British public did not support Thatcher? Even I 'd have to admit highly unlikely. Of course with such an honest if attacking speech on the time and legacy of Thatcher it could have been expected the hate mail would have been pouring in.

[MARYROSE02]

I was in OZ for most of the 80's so would someone fill in some historical background?

Why did Scargill call a national miners' strike?

Did he ballot the nation's miners before calling the strike?

Why did some miners refuse to join the strike?

Why were the police called in to break picket lines?

Is it a crime NOT to go on strike?

Is Scargill a hero or a villain? (He strikes me as a thoroughly unpleasant man?

[flag of convenience]

In essence yes. Britain is better off. One of the problems the UK has always had is the tall poppy syndrome. It likes to put down anyone that is successful. When a person starts a bushiness, does well, is successful, makes a lot of money. That person needs to be held up as a pilot. Something to aim for. When a person, gets an education that allows them to have a successful and yes, well off life, that person needs to be held up as a pilot. Instead, the left persistently want to bring people down to the lowest denominator. The right want to bring people up to the highest.

 

I have done a lot of voluntary work with kids that have been expelled from school. Most look up to people they know that live on their estate, claim benefits and do smallmscale dealing and other crimes. I say to them that no. Get an education. That porche is in reach, that big house that you can only think of breaking into can actually be yours. That to me is the way foreword. Yes, I have used my own background. I was expelled at 14. Had my first kid at 15. Homeless at 17 and living in the shop door way of BHS in Middlesbrough. Discovered education at 21. And now have a pretty nice lifestyle. Have I been greedy? Maybe, I am driven. I have demanded better bucks at work. I have worked hard for what I have. I will in two years become GM of of my first mine. I should be able to retire at 50-55. My wife, doesnt want for anything. We both give back to the community both as volunteers and direct cash.

 

But according to the left this is all wrong.

 

I don't want the poor to be well looked after. I don't want poor.

 

Remind me how many youth are unemployed in UK at the moment? Could this be a lagacy of the Thatcher times? I notice you put in the porche as an incentive which was very much 80s ostentatious displays of wealth from at best the petit bourgeous. The lottsa money culture that was born in these times.

The buying of working class by selling tax funded people's houses at massive market reductions. How many kids are part of the five million that are waiting for council housing today?

You are perhaps an example of the division caused by this woman within the ranks of the working class. Some benefited but many more lost out. It was always a case of winners and losers.

Remember Thatcher created probably as many poor as enriched. Many never worked again and were left to langish on the dole luckily paid for by North Sea oil.

 

She not only sold at cut price council housing but sold of government owned happened in Russia and the sale of their enterprise to asset stripping privilaged profiteers at fence clearing sale prices. The rush to sell was almost indecent.

 

What do we have today? A cartel of foreign companies running British utilities.

 

No I can't see Thatcher doing a lot of good on reflection. A wiser mind like Joseph would have steered Britain out of the crisis and into far calmer waters while getting the country running.

 

I'm sorry but I find your explaination with regards as to how well you appear to have done is all rather typical of the me Thatcher generation.

 

She certainly changed the landscape but I do not think Britain is a better country today for it. Some values transcends monetary and somehow blurred the line between aspirational and envy and greed.

 

Thankfully the Palace is asking questions on the funeral arrangements. Although Thatcher may have regarded herself as regal, others didn't and there is no reason she should have the same send off as the Queen Mother following tradition.

Churchill got one but rightly so for his war effort in uniting most the country. Thatcher on the other hand split the country.

[flag of convenience]

I was in OZ for most of the 80's so would someone fill in some historical background?

Why did Scargill call a national miners' strike?

Did he ballot the nation's miners before calling the strike?

Why did some miners refuse to join the strike?

Why were the police called in to break picket lines?

Is it a crime NOT to go on strike?

Is Scargill a hero or a villain? (He strikes me as a thoroughly unpleasant man?

 

Your point being? Few would have passed comment on Scargill as being much more than a self centered egoist and ideology crazed. REmember the MWU had beaten Thatchell in 81. At that time the govt was ill prepared with stock piles. She never forgot that and revenge I guess to her was sweet.

[VERYSTORMY]

Yes, I put porche. Nothing to do with the 80's as I still fancy one and thinking. Kids still like them.

 

What is wrong with having nice good things? I know that Marxists (you?) think that we should all have the worst. I don't think so. I think everyone should have the best.

 

Yes, thatcher sold off a lot. But, given the state of the economy - thanks to the left, was dire. Don't forget, the country had requested international help.

 

There is nothing wrong with a "me" generation. Far from it. It is up to the individual to look after themselves. Nobody else.

 

All of the classes have an a better lifestyle. That is measurable.

 

As for the funeral. That is something else. I think the country owes her, and the extent of which isn't going to be fully known for a number of years. Personally, I think a more subdued funeral would be more dignified. Particularly given the threat of the animals threatening ton disrupt it.

 

Remind me how many youth are unemployed in UK at the moment? Could this be a lagacy of the Thatcher times? I notice you put in the porche as an incentive which was very much 80s ostentatious displays of wealth from at best the petit bourgeous. The lottsa money culture that was born in these times.

The buying of working class by selling tax funded people's houses at massive market reductions. How many kids are part of the five million that are waiting for council housing today?

You are perhaps an example of the division caused by this woman within the ranks of the working class. Some benefited but many more lost out. It was always a case of winners and losers.

Remember Thatcher created probably as many poor as enriched. Many never worked again and were left to langish on the dole luckily paid for by North Sea oil.

 

She not only sold at cut price council housing but sold of government owned happened in Russia and the sale of their enterprise to asset stripping privilaged profiteers at fence clearing sale prices. The rush to sell was almost indecent.

 

What do we have today? A cartel of foreign companies running British utilities.

 

No I can't see Thatcher doing a lot of good on reflection. A wiser mind like Joseph would have steered Britain out of the crisis and into far calmer waters while getting the country running.

 

I'm sorry but I find your explaination with regards as to how well you appear to have done is all rather typical of the me Thatcher generation.

 

She certainly changed the landscape but I do not think Britain is a better country today for it. Some values transcends monetary and somehow blurred the line between aspirational and envy and greed.

 

Thankfully the Palace is asking questions on the funeral arrangements. Although Thatcher may have regarded herself as regal, others didn't and there is no reason she should have the same send off as the Queen Mother following tradition.

Churchill got one but rightly so for his war effort in uniting most the country. Thatcher on the other hand split the country.

[Guest51810]

This is what i sometimes hate about the UK, the total class division and obsession with money

 

Oh and before anybody says it yes i know it probably happens in other countries but i dont live in these countries!

Edited April 12, 2013 by Guest51810

[Guest51810]

I was talking to my gran last night and thought i'd find her opinion on thatcher. Tbh it was much milder than I expected. She doesnt hate her but didnt like her by a long shot. She said there will always be a lot of scots who hate her and that a lot of them felt that she treated scotland especially badly. Wether thats just us having a chip on our shoulder.. I dont know.

 

She said there will be lots of parties, i said "isnt that sick". She didnt think so. So wether that makes her a animal thats your opinion.. I doubt she would agree with young people rioting for no reason though.

[Guest Ptp113]

This is what i sometimes hate about the UK, the total class division and obsession with money

 

Oh and before anybody says it yes i know it probably happens in other countries but i dont live in these countries!

 

The witch institutionalised class warfare. Just wish I could make it to the funeral!

[flag of convenience]

Yes, I put porche. Nothing to do with the 80's as I still fancy one and thinking. Kids still like them.

 

What is wrong with having nice good things? I know that Marxists (you?) think that we should all have the worst. I don't think so. I think everyone should have the best.

 

Yes, thatcher sold off a lot. But, given the state of the economy - thanks to the left, was dire. Don't forget, the country had requested international help.

 

There is nothing wrong with a "me" generation. Far from it. It is up to the individual to look after themselves. Nobody else.

 

All of the classes have an a better lifestyle. That is measurable.

 

As for the funeral. That is something else. I think the country owes her, and the extent of which isn't going to be fully known for a number of years. Personally, I think a more subdued funeral would be more dignified. Particularly given the threat of the animals threatening ton disrupt it.

 

We are complete polles apart on all issues at hand.

Kids like them, yeh sure go park a porche close to an estate and they'll love it to bits. But really just another motor,but in some minds tring to make a statement.

Akin to brand names. Guess you can used get mugged for the brand name alone.

 

Not hard to corrupt kids minds in fact. The Tottenham disorders saw that. More a matter of getting things than any form of political intent. A lot from the era where political thought was replaced by a desire for things.

Thatchell certainly knew how to unleash the power of division through greed.

Knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

I think people like me don't care which label you care to use. But things of beauty don't necessary come in the shape of look at me and how well I've done motors. In fact they would have been a libility in the London of my time due to being defaced.

 

I tend to desise the me generation,when I care to give it some thought. Thinking all too often that the universe spins around them and their every desire. A little sad as most adults are aeware life is about compromise. Thet tend to bring their spoiled kids up the same way.(now generation)

That to my mind was another of the uglier aspects of Thatcherism (and there was a few.)the encouraging of crass individual consumerism on such a scale.

 

As for Thatcher's near give away fence clearence sale of public assets it may be akin to the following example.

Would you sell a million pound house owing to financial difficulties to a smooth,pin stripped proftieer,who offered four hundred thousand pound to to ease an immediate crisis? (even if they are a mate)

More likely you'd look for a better price or even better renegotiate the loan and wait for a better offer.

 

Of course Thatcher's questionable decisions in so many things didn't stop at giving away council housing and the nation's assets for a song either.

 

The radical policy of emptying the psychiatric hospitals into non existant community care was a blunder, based on cost cutting of major proportions.

 

 

No if she is awarded a funeral as tradition has set for royality with the exception of Churchill, who actually did unite most of the people, then folk have a right to be angry.

[flag of convenience]

I was talking to my gran last night and thought i'd find her opinion on thatcher. Tbh it was much milder than I expected. She doesnt hate her but didnt like her by a long shot. She said there will always be a lot of scots who hate her and that a lot of them felt that she treated scotland especially badly. Wether thats just us having a chip on our shoulder.. I dont know.

 

She said there will be lots of parties, i said "isnt that sick". She didnt think so. So wether that makes her a animal thats your opinion.. I doubt she would agree with young people rioting for no reason though.

 

For one thing she unleashed the dreaded Poll Tax,which led in a big way to her undoing, onto Scotland first. Something many Scots have forgiven her for. Scotland remains pretty much a Tory free zone untill this day.

[newjez]

As I've said before - I don't mind contributing to the funeral, as long as it means they bury her a little bit deeper. I'm also quite happy to put up the money for Blair's funeral if they want to bring that forward. Street parties, in the line of the jubilee I think would be sweet (for and against) but rioting should not be tolerated. There is no cause and no justification.

[flag of convenience]

This is what i sometimes hate about the UK, the total class division and obsession with money

 

Oh and before anybody says it yes i know it probably happens in other countries but i dont live in these countries!

 

It certainly got far worse in more recent years. The simplier life was a big attraction to me as a youth in London. Still there in places.

[Guest Guest26012]

For one thing she unleashed the dreaded Poll Tax,which led in a big way to her undoing, onto Scotland first. Something many Scots have forgiven her for. Scotland remains pretty much a Tory free zone untill this day.

 

 

I work with a few scots and they have all mentioned the poll tax this week, with bitterness in their voices!

[flag of convenience]

As I've said before - I don't mind contributing to the funeral, as long as it means they bury her a little bit deeper. I'm also quite happy to put up the money for Blair's funeral if they want to bring that forward. Street parties, in the line of the jubilee I think would be sweet (for and against) but rioting should not be tolerated. There is no cause and no justification.

 

It takes more than one to riot though. Both sides can provoke.

[Perthbum]

I was in OZ for most of the 80's so would someone fill in some historical background?

Why did Scargill call a national miners' strike?

Did he ballot the nation's miners before calling the strike?

Why did some miners refuse to join the strike?

Why were the police called in to break picket lines?

Is it a crime NOT to go on strike?

Is Scargill a hero or a villain? (He strikes me as a thoroughly unpleasant man?

google it, you are good at that.

[Guest51810]

For one thing she unleashed the dreaded Poll Tax,which led in a big way to her undoing, onto Scotland first. Something many Scots have forgiven her for. Scotland remains pretty much a Tory free zone untill this day.

 

Yeah thats what she said, we were the guinea pigs lol. My gran definitely didnt hate her but didnt like her at all either. She bought her council house btw so maybe thats why she didnt hate her? She did say though that she thinks she let people buy their houses so that they would find it much harder to strike but were the mines and steelworks closed by then?

[flag of convenience]

I work with a few scots and they have all mentioned the poll tax this week, with bitterness in their voices!

 

Glad to hear the anger is maintained. Dreadful how they were treated and Thatcher's revenge for Scotland not having enough Tory voters.

[flag of convenience]

Yeah thats what she said, we were the guinea pigs lol. My gran definitely didnt hate her but didnt like her at all either. She bought her council house btw so maybe thats why she didnt hate her? She did say though that she thinks she let people buy their houses so that they would find it much harder to strike but were the mines and steelworks closed by then?

 

Your Gran sounds wise. Of course when people have a mortgage to pay they are more likely to comply. That includes striking etc. Divide and rule often been a British way to conquer the enemy in history.

[Guest51810]

Your Gran sounds wise. Of course when people have a mortgage to pay they are more likely to comply. That includes striking etc. Divide and rule often been a British way to conquer the enemy in history.

 

Her exact words were "there was method in her madness, she knew people would jump at the chance and then they would have no choice. To agree and not strike unless they wanted to be homeless".

 

My grandad is a very quiet man and doesnt have a opinion on her according to my gran but when i visit i'll try to get it out of him lol. Might be quite interesting

[newjez]

Not so sure that is correct. But I'll concede that the other side can make matters worse.

 

It takes more than one to riot though. Both sides can provoke.

[StevieF8]

Glenda Jackson says she has had around 900 e mails or tweets. She has read around 400 she claims and only 10% were against her speech in Parliment.

 

Does this suggests 90% of the British public did not support Thatcher? Even I 'd have to admit highly unlikely. Of course with such an honest if attacking speech on the time and legacy of Thatcher it could have been expected the hate mail would have been pouring in.

 

 

Same answer as last time.....Unless you have run these statistics through a Chi-squared test to determine the significance of them,

then you can't possibly comment on whether the sample size is too small or not to draw any real conclusions from...

 

and just becasue she 'claims' that was the response, doesn't mean it was

Again you would have to analayse a sample to determine the significance of them, before drawing a conclusion

Edited April 12, 2013 by StevieF8
sp

[VERYSTORMY]

The strike was called after it was leaked that the government was going to withdraw subsidies to some mines. The mines in question were producing next to nothing - largely due to petty industrial actions but were costing the tax payer massive amounts of cash.

 

No, Scargill did not ballot the minors. Nor were they told the truth about the situation.

 

There were actually more miners that refused the strike than many people think. However, it was hard as the society in most of these communities was one of following the union regardless. Anyone that didn't was is osterzised.

 

Police were used to protect miners that wanted to work, but there was no legal obligation for strikes to be balloted, so the strike wasn't illegal.

 

No, striking is not a crime, nor should it ever be.

 

He was the worst piece of cake in the history of UK politics. Nearly all of the mines could be operating now if it wasn't for him.

 

I was in OZ for most of the 80's so would someone fill in some historical background?

Why did Scargill call a national miners' strike?

Did he ballot the nation's miners before calling the strike?

Why did some miners refuse to join the strike?

Why were the police called in to break picket lines?

Is it a crime NOT to go on strike?

Is Scargill a hero or a villain? (He strikes me as a thoroughly unpleasant man?

[flag of convenience]

Not so sure that is correct. But I'll concede that the other side can make matters worse.

 

Take it as true. Witnessed it first hand. The police violence was all too real. It certainly inflamed the situation.