Bomb blast at Manchester Arena several dead.

[robfromdublin]

Fear and hate for other groups is what the terrorists want to spread. By encouraging or allowing that we are letting them win. 

I'm all for scrutinising the reasons for this and addressing them, but suggesting that Islam or the Koran is the reason is simplistic and ignores all evidence.

[Guest263228]

12 hours ago, simmo said:

After seeing/hearing the reactions in the media.. This is how I feel.

 

Always guaranteed to pull one out of the bag. Just remember there is every chance some of that' human flesh' , the children of Manchester are pulling out of their hair, may just as easily be from those of Muslim, Hindu, and other backgrounds. The concern that those of ill will, will   further community hatred towards specific groups , only to obvious with the Claire Lehmann piece. Such emotive garbage does nothing but instigate further trouble. 

[Guest263228]

24 minutes ago, robfromdublin said:

Fear and hate for other groups is what the terrorists want to spread. By encouraging or allowing that we are letting them win. 

I'm all for scrutinising the reasons for this and addressing them, but suggesting that Islam or the Koran is the reason is simplistic and ignores all evidence.

Yes it is. But many are taken in sadly by simplistic views. Height of ignorance ignoring reality and furthering the dogma of those with extreme views and hatred.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Pura Vida

[robfromdublin]

After reading the reactions in this thread, this is how I feel (expand to read fully).  A British soldier's response to being blown up by an Islamic extremist.

 

[Guest263228]

1 minute ago, robfromdublin said:

After reading the reactions in this thread, this is how I feel (expand to read fully).  A British soldier's response to being blown up by an Islamic extremist.

 

Says it all. Should  be forced consumption for all those of a certain persuasion and sadly growing in number, due to failure/inability to think.

[Guest263228]

7 hours ago, bunbury61 said:

where did I say it was the only option ? ( here we go again )

just that is ultimately the most likely outcome .

what would you do ?

Use brain for starters. We are all in this together. Leave out the divide between people .......only solution is co operative.

[Parley]

Sadly this sick extremist is one of around 3000 such people in Britain.

We should ship them all of to Guantanemo for ever. And do it now.

Meaningless platitudes above are very offensive to me at this time of mourning.

[Toots]

28 minutes ago, Parley said:

Sadly this sick extremist is one of around 3000 such people in Britain.

We should ship them all of to Guantanemo for ever. And do it now.

Meaningless platitudes above are very offensive to me at this time of mourning.

You mean the same as during WWll when over 100,000 innocent Japanese Americans were sent to internment camps in the US.  

[Parley]

I have no sympathy for the radicalised extremists Toots. 

They should be locked up Imo.

They are a small percentage of the 3M Muslims in Britain. But yes the 3000 nutters should be locked up indefinitely.

 

[robfromdublin]

32 minutes ago, Parley said:

Sadly this sick extremist is one of around 3000 such people in Britain.

We should ship them all of to Guantanemo for ever. And do it now.

Meaningless platitudes above are very offensive to me at this time of mourning.

Do you learn nothing from history?  Internment doesn't work and makes things less safe for the rest of us by fostering terrorism.

http://alphahistory.com/northernireland/internment/

"Faulkner’s use of internment was intended to extract IRA leaders, organisers and active volunteers from the general population – not just to curtail attacks on security forces but to prevent a groundswell of support for the IRA that might lead to a full scale civil war. But internment had little impact on the IRA, in fact most historians now consider it one of the most disastrous policy decisions during the entire Troubles."

"While internment was intended to curtail paramilitary violence, its real effect was to alienate and outrage Northern Ireland’s Catholics. Support for and membership of the IRA increased markedly after Operation Demetrius and contributed to a rapid increase in violence in late 1971 and 1972."

[Guest263228]

1 hour ago, Parley said:

Sadly this sick extremist is one of around 3000 such people in Britain.

We should ship them all of to Guantanemo for ever. And do it now.

Meaningless platitudes above are very offensive to me at this time of mourning.

Far from being a meaningless platitude. Do yourself a favour and 'get on board'. (in the way of giving thought to real solutions) You should really read aloud to determine if a particular post with 'pie in the sky' suggestions really make  any sense.

[Guest263228]

47 minutes ago, Parley said:

I have no sympathy for the radicalised extremists Toots. 

They should be locked up Imo.

They are a small percentage of the 3M Muslims in Britain. But yes the 3000 nutters should be locked up indefinitely.

 

 Any thoughts on the radicalised Right Wing 'extremist' jobs? Or are your concerns purely against a particular group? Just how many really exist? Does anybody really know?

[newjez]

2 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Always guaranteed to pull one out of the bag. Just remember there is every chance some of that' human flesh' , the children of Manchester are pulling out of their hair, may just as easily be from those of Muslim, Hindu, and other backgrounds. The concern that those of ill will, will   further community hatred towards specific groups , only to obvious with the Claire Lehmann piece. Such emotive garbage does nothing but instigate further trouble. 

In fact most violence has been against other Muslims. Our children are just worth more and get better press. 

[newjez]

1 hour ago, Parley said:

I have no sympathy for the radicalised extremists Toots. 

They should be locked up Imo.

They are a small percentage of the 3M Muslims in Britain. But yes the 3000 nutters should be locked up indefinitely.

 

They don't win by blowing us up. They win by our reaction to them blowing us up. Don't let them win.

[Guest241083]

........what a bloody awful time we live in......

........that such an atrocity can happen......

.........and sadly the repercussions will affect the innocent for long after the event.....

.........those caught up in it......

..........those who had nothing to do with it.......but will be deemed guilty by asocciation  

.........those who helped the victims......the friends and family......most of the people of Manchester....

..........lets hope and pray the guilty........only the guilty of this abhorrent act are caught quickly and punished severely....

[Parley]

This act will spur on the other radicals to do similar horrible crimes.

They must be stopped before they act.

It is no use waiting until the next mass murder and then saying we will punish the guilty then.

The main perpetrator always kills themself anyway so that is a useless strategy.

[ssiri]

It's a sad chapter in our country's history. I despair. My heart breaks for those affected and with us no more, and I'm thankful for those who rally round. A terrorist is a terrorist regardless of their ideology and a solution is needed to stop all kinds of terrorism but that is a discussion for another day. The security forces, and emergency services are doing a sterling job - as always. Devastated.


Sent from my iPhone using PomsinOz

[Guest]

10 hours ago, bunbury61 said:

where did I say it was the only option ? ( here we go again )

just that is ultimately the most likely outcome .

what would you do ?

If they are on a known watch list and are actively moving between here and foreign lands lock the bastards up, interrogate question and control via a prison cell. Or shall we just let them go about daily business in the meantime making bombs in garages conspiring another attack on our values? 

What would you do?

[Collie]

 

I'd rather focus on the compassion shown by the people of Manchester than blaming an entire religon (of 1.3b people) for the actions of a very few. 

Manchester is united in defiance of terror

City stands strong after bombing that killed 22 people following Ariana Grande concert

about 4 hours ago

Simon Carswell 

 

 

 

 

Thousands of people have gathered in Manchester City Centre for a vigil following a terror attack at the Manchester Arena. Video: Reuters

 

Nadia Abdulmalek, a 55-year-old Muslim teacher originally from Libya, and Deborah Henley, a 52-year-old flight attendant who is half-Jewish and half-Irish, did not know each other.

It did not matter.

They embraced and cried among a crowd of thousands at Manchester Town Hall at a vigil on Tuesday evening to remember the 22 people killed by a suicide bomber at a pop concert on Monday night.

“We are one,” said Ms Abdulmalek through tears as she hugged Ms Henley. “They tried to divide us.”

Packed into a sun-drenched Albert Square were Muslims, Sikhs and Christians, determined to show that the actions of the attacker – named by police as 22-year-old Salman Ramadan Abedi, a 22-year-old Manchester-born son of Libyan refugees – would not divide one of Britain’s most mixed and multicultural communities.

This was Manchester, united.

“That lady there is Manchester,” said Ms Henley of the stranger she had just hugged. “We are all Manchester. It doesn’t matter about your religion, your faith or where in the world you come from today – you are in Manchester.”

Ms Abdulmalek, a Muslim mother and grandmother, joined the vigil to support the families of the victims and the 59 injured in an attack that targeted the most vulnerable: young girls enjoying a special night out.

“He didn’t do a favour to Muslims,” she said of her fellow member of Manchester’s Libyan community.

Abedi was claimed on Tuesday by the Islamic State militant extremist group as a “caliphate soldier”.

“He was brain-washed by I don’t know who,” Ms Abdulmalek told The Irish Times. “I pray for his family. I feel sorry for his family.”

Tabet (23), her Manchester-born son, said the city was “too strong” to be divided by Abedi’s act of violence, the worst terrorist act in the UK since the July 7th bombings in 2005 that claimed 52 lives.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Collie said:

 

I'd rather focus on the compassion shown by the people of Manchester than blaming an entire religon (of 1.3b people) for the actions of a very few. 

Manchester is united in defiance of terror

City stands strong after bombing that killed 22 people following Ariana Grande concert

about 4 hours ago

Simon Carswell 

 

 

 

 

Thousands of people have gathered in Manchester City Centre for a vigil following a terror attack at the Manchester Arena. Video: Reuters

 

Nadia Abdulmalek, a 55-year-old Muslim teacher originally from Libya, and Deborah Henley, a 52-year-old flight attendant who is half-Jewish and half-Irish, did not know each other.

It did not matter.

They embraced and cried among a crowd of thousands at Manchester Town Hall at a vigil on Tuesday evening to remember the 22 people killed by a suicide bomber at a pop concert on Monday night.

“We are one,” said Ms Abdulmalek through tears as she hugged Ms Henley. “They tried to divide us.”

Packed into a sun-drenched Albert Square were Muslims, Sikhs and Christians, determined to show that the actions of the attacker – named by police as 22-year-old Salman Ramadan Abedi, a 22-year-old Manchester-born son of Libyan refugees – would not divide one of Britain’s most mixed and multicultural communities.

This was Manchester, united.

“That lady there is Manchester,” said Ms Henley of the stranger she had just hugged. “We are all Manchester. It doesn’t matter about your religion, your faith or where in the world you come from today – you are in Manchester.”

Ms Abdulmalek, a Muslim mother and grandmother, joined the vigil to support the families of the victims and the 59 injured in an attack that targeted the most vulnerable: young girls enjoying a special night out.

“He didn’t do a favour to Muslims,” she said of her fellow member of Manchester’s Libyan community.

Abedi was claimed on Tuesday by the Islamic State militant extremist group as a “caliphate soldier”.

“He was brain-washed by I don’t know who,” Ms Abdulmalek told The Irish Times. “I pray for his family. I feel sorry for his family.”

Tabet (23), her Manchester-born son, said the city was “too strong” to be divided by Abedi’s act of violence, the worst terrorist act in the UK since the July 7th bombings in 2005 that claimed 52 lives.

All well and good and great to see, but what action other than this public display?

All they are doing is laughing and planning the next mission, in full knowledge that the world is three steps behind them constantly even with surveillance and known watch lists.

[Toots]

1 hour ago, Sunset said:

If they are on a known watch list and are actively moving between here and foreign lands lock the bastards up, interrogate question and control via a prison cell. Or shall we just let them go about daily business in the meantime making bombs in garages conspiring another attack on our values? 

What would you do?

Yes, a much closer watch on these individuals should be necessary.  The latest murderer was apparently on a watch list and had moved between countries very recently.  If the authorities or whoever were aware - certainly they should have interrogated him.  Maybe, just maybe it would have saved all those lives in Manchester.

[robfromdublin]

56 minutes ago, Sunset said:

If they are on a known watch list and are actively moving between here and foreign lands lock the bastards up, interrogate question and control via a prison cell. Or shall we just let them go about daily business in the meantime making bombs in garages conspiring another attack on our values? 

What would you do?

By foreign lands, I presume you don't mean people going to Spain on holidays?  I presume you mean countries that are known to be terrorist hotbeds?

Because they already do much of that, as today's arrest at Stansted has shown.  

Also, from a strategic point of view, if you lock someone up simply for being on a watch list then you compromise your intelligence gathering.  And intelligence gathering is key to combating terrorism, as most people realise.  A simplistic approach like 'lock the bastards up' might play well in the tabloids, but it isn't going to lead to great outcomes. What we rarely hear about are the early interventions that prevent an attack before it is even conceived or can be implemented. The arrest of a man or teenager in the early stages of radicalisation, for example. This is what stops attacks like these becoming more frequent.  By simply locking these people up you might lose the opportunity to trace the source of radicalisation propaganda.

I'm all for police intervention if someone is planning an attack, or extolling extremist views.  An intervention with Man Monis should have been conducted 4 days before he carried out his attack.  But I think you need to have a balance, and not kowtow to those who would be happy with seeing any young Muslim male thrown in prison. 

[Guest]

Just now, Toots said:

Yes, a much closer watch on these individuals should be necessary.  The latest murderer was apparently on a watch list and had moved between countries very recently.  If the authorities or whoever were aware - certainly they should have interrogated him.  Maybe, just maybe it would have saved all those lives in Manchester.

That law exists already here in Australia Toots, not sure of the UK's laws. But like most laws they still have to go through hoops protracted meetings and hearings before anything if anything is done.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, robfromdublin said:

By foreign lands, I presume you don't mean people going to Spain on holidays?  I presume you mean countries that are known to be terrorist hotbeds?

Because they already do much of that, as today's arrest at Stansted has shown.  

Also, from a strategic point of view, if you lock someone up simply for being on a watch list then you compromise your intelligence gathering.  And intelligence gathering is key to combating terrorism, as most people realise.  A simplistic approach like 'lock the bastards up' might play well in the tabloids, but it isn't going to lead to great outcomes. What we rarely hear about are the early interventions that prevent an attack before it is even conceived or can be implemented. The arrest of a man or teenager in the early stages of radicalisation, for example. This is what stops attacks like these becoming more frequent.  By simply locking these people up you might lose the opportunity to trace the source of radicalisation propaganda.

I'm all for police intervention if someone is planning an attack, or extolling extremist views.  An intervention with Man Monis should have been conducted 4 days before he carried out his attack.  But I think you need to have a balance, and not kowtow to those who would be happy with seeing any young Muslim male thrown in prison. 

Not what I said at all, I have no problem with faith or nationality muslim jew christian whatever all basket cases in my eye at varying levels but that's another debate. Act while the horse is prancing not when it's halfway down the field having left smashed barn doors behind it. Too much emphasis on being soft and talk is the key. Guess what mate talking as done nothing but to take more innocent lives, talk does nothing but further the radicals ideals and gives them room to plan and brainwash the next batch of sad people drawn into doing something we as a collective suffer from.

 

[robfromdublin]

OK fine, fair enough.  I made a mistake characterising your comments as only affecting Muslims.  You only meant extremists generally.  It's a fair cop and I apologise.

I am not advocating being 'soft'.  I am advocating an approach that results in fewer attacks and fewer extremists.  You are advocating an approach that, time and again, has been shown to result in more extremists, more attacks, more terrorism and worse outcomes.  Being 'hard' is a populist approach that does not work.  Being 'hard' is what led to the Iraqi army being decimated and basically turning into ISIS.  Being 'hard' turned the IRA from a pocket of extremists to an organisation with widespread support in a particular section of the population. 

Hey, if someone is clearly an extremist then lock them up.  I'm all for Abu Hamza rotting in prison. But don't risk the safety of all by locking someone up without a trial.  There must be due process.  The public must know why someone has been locked up and must be satisfied that it is in the public interest.