Bomb blast at Manchester Arena several dead.

[simmo]

7 hours ago, Rallyman said:

Just catching up on the thread, I feel very empty inside this morning, trying to understand why , all in the name of Allah I just don't get it. Innocent young children murdered maybe this is the straw that breaks the camels back. 

I would like to think so but history tells me that the platitudes last for approximately 1week then it will be forgotten and to mention it will be deemed as inciting division.

[Toots]

6 minutes ago, robfromdublin said:

OK fine, fair enough.  I made a mistake characterising your comments as only affecting Muslims.  You only meant extremists generally.  It's a fair cop and I apologise.

I am not advocating being 'soft'.  I am advocating an approach that results in fewer attacks and fewer extremists.  You are advocating an approach that, time and again, has been shown to result in more extremists, more attacks, more terrorism and worse outcomes.  Being 'hard' is a populist approach that does not work.  Being 'hard' is what led to the Iraqi army being decimated and basically turning into ISIS.  Being 'hard' turned the IRA from a pocket of extremists to an organisation with widespread support in a particular section of the population. 

Hey, if someone is clearly an extremist then lock them up.  I'm all for Abu Hamza rotting in prison. But don't risk the safety of all by locking someone up without a trial.  There must be due process.  The public must know why someone has been locked up and must be satisfied that it is in the public interest.

 The sooner they find that approach the better - if there is one.  Nothing much seems to have changed since the 2005 London bombings when over 50 people were killed by 4 Islamist extremists.

[simmo]

19 hours ago, Collie said:

 Nobody I know of any race, religon or nationality would condone such a horrendous act.

Oh thats fine then, as long as you didn't know them

[simmo]

18 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Obviously, but surely that should include the state sanctioned killings on the ground of innocents in other countries.

Those kids didn't carry out any of that

[simmo]

17 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

A lot of Muslims must feel increasingly uncomfortable today of their position in society there, let alone their security. Very sad.

Yep... poor ol' muslims again

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, robfromdublin said:

OK fine, fair enough.  I made a mistake characterising your comments as only affecting Muslims.  You only meant extremists generally.  It's a fair cop and I apologise.

I am not advocating being 'soft'.  I am advocating an approach that results in fewer attacks and fewer extremists.  You are advocating an approach that, time and again, has been shown to result in more extremists, more attacks, more terrorism and worse outcomes.  Being 'hard' is a populist approach that does not work.  Being 'hard' is what led to the Iraqi army being decimated and basically turning into ISIS.  Being 'hard' turned the IRA from a pocket of extremists to an organisation with widespread support in a particular section of the population. 

Hey, if someone is clearly an extremist then lock them up.  I'm all for Abu Hamza rotting in prison. But don't risk the safety of all by locking someone up without a trial.  There must be due process.  The public must know why someone has been locked up and must be satisfied that it is in the public interest.

So how as the world changed so much that now we hear of this crap on a weekly basis somewhere in the world, when I was a youngster all we heard of was the IRA stuff going on and some bits out east in some sand land maybe. Being soft does nothing but fuel the bastards intentions, I hate to say this but we did this with Hitler look what happened. Lock em up get answers if not willing to comply then rot in a cell no privileges no telly or fags and snooker days, hard time do it Russian style.

At the minute the only message terrorists are getting is keep going you are slowly winning, because sadly lives are being taken by these bastards.

[simmo]

12 hours ago, tea4too said:

Those queuing to give their blood in Manchester today, people of all backgrounds and faiths, understand that we are all the same beneath the skin. This is a time for reaching out, not hunkering down.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40004410 

….Mr Easton says it better than I could. T x

 

Stop making this about skin colour, islam is colour blind and who should we be reaching out to exactly? poor old muslims I suppose?

[simmo]

6 hours ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

Yep.  There have been hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq since 2003, and up to 2009 40% of them were children.

Many have these have since been killed by religious infighting, but the catalyst was the USA, UK and coalition destroying the Iraqi society and letting these lunatics run free.

They target our civilians and children, because they reckon we didn't give a shit about their children when our bombers were going over blowing them to pieces as "collateral damage".

Until this is recognised, they will keep coming for us.  We see Islam as evil, they see us as more evil...and we have killed 100x more of them so far.  For them, they are still at war and they haven't got their own back yet.

The attacker was British, born of Libyan refugee parents.

[simmo]

4 hours ago, robfromdublin said:

Fear and hate for other groups is what the terrorists want to spread. By encouraging or allowing that we are letting them win. 

I'm all for scrutinising the reasons for this and addressing them, but suggesting that Islam or the Koran is the reason is simplistic and ignores all evidence.

The old "this is what they want" chestnut. Sick of hearing it.  As for "suggesting that Islam or the Koran is the reason is simplistic and ignores all evidence" There is nothing simplistic about the koran it is the most important thing in millions of muslims lives.  How many muslims will fast this year because the koran tells them?  The Koran is at the centre of everything a muslim does from the moment he/she awakes to the moment he/she goes to sleep and when they sleep.

[simmo]

4 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Always guaranteed to pull one out of the bag. Just remember there is every chance some of that' human flesh' , the children of Manchester are pulling out of their hair, may just as easily be from those of Muslim, Hindu, and other backgrounds. The concern that those of ill will, will   further community hatred towards specific groups , only to obvious with the Claire Lehmann piece. Such emotive garbage does nothing but instigate further trouble. 

yes the children of manchester are are all groups.. and?

Edited May 24, 2017 by simmo

[simmo]

4 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Says it all. Should  be forced consumption for all those of a certain persuasion and sadly growing in number, due to failure/inability to think.

so you are happy to separate muslims from "brits" when it suits (Brits can be muslim - muslims can be brits BTW) when it suits. 

[simmo]

4 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Use brain for starters. We are all in this together. Leave out the divide between people .......only solution is co operative.

what is the "cooperative solution" then? 

[simmo]

[Toots]

13 hours ago, tea4too said:

This was an event the bomber knew would attract young fans, teenage girls in particular. They selected the young and the vulnerable as victims because they think they represent our weak spot. Seeking to divide us, to terrorise us, they target that which we hold most dear. Our children. Our freedom. Our future…… Terrorism is not new .….The strategy is to provoke, to get a reaction that contradicts the principles we cherish and they seek to undermine….. Experience tells us that, in reacting to the agony of last night's violence against our children, we must remain true to [our] values, however hard that may be. To lash out would be to play into the hands of the bomber and his accomplices…… Those queuing to give their blood in Manchester today, people of all backgrounds and faiths, understand that we are all the same beneath the skin. This is a time for reaching out, not hunkering down.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40004410 

….Mr Easton says it better than I could. T x

 

I did like your post but if one of my children had been killed in Manchester I would really find it very hard to remain true to my values.  Quite simply it's murder and it could have been prevented if the murderer had been pulled in and interrogated beforehand.  Apparently he had been flagged as a tad on the suspect side.  No use hanging around until mass murder has been committed.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Toots

[Sandgroper]

9 minutes ago, simmo said:

what is the "cooperative solution" then? 

This will never go away, there will never be any co operation, the divide is permanent, it a cultural divide here to stay. The root of all this terrorism (the Islamic faith) is not compatible with Western society. The Islamification of certain countries in Western Europe will continue over the next few decades and the problems will just get worse. 

[Guest263228]

2 hours ago, newjez said:

They don't win by blowing us up. They win by our reaction to them blowing us up. Don't let them win.

Exactly. The desire is to create disharmony. Turn community against community.

[Guest]

Growing up on a canal barge i remember very few faces other than white, yeah there was west indians and some indians/pakistanis about, but all went about being normal everyday folk things. Now it's like east meets west no holds barred? 

Most of those faces I remember are now elder statesmen/women within those communities they need to be doing more being LOUDER in reaction, outing the backroom goings on at mosques and above the corner shop, it goes on we all know it now and so do they. Name and shame.

[Guest263228]

10 minutes ago, simmo said:

what is the "cooperative solution" then? 

Hardly rocket science. Don't alienate Muslims for the reason of their religion. Such a population regardless of whom, will hardly remain passive and likely be more non co operative best. In order to weed out those set to create terror in our communities we require all on side. We certainly should never allow the bile spewed by the extreme right to determine narrative. They have their own reasons and pose a serious long term thread themselves.

[newjez]

2 hours ago, Parley said:

This act will spur on the other radicals to do similar horrible crimes.

They must be stopped before they act.

It is no use waiting until the next mass murder and then saying we will punish the guilty then.

The main perpetrator always kills themself anyway so that is a useless strategy.

What do you suggest we do?

[newjez]

2 hours ago, Sunset said:

If they are on a known watch list and are actively moving between here and foreign lands lock the bastards up, interrogate question and control via a prison cell. Or shall we just let them go about daily business in the meantime making bombs in garages conspiring another attack on our values? 

What would you do?

Guantanamo bay became a rallying point. The solution becomes the problem and we become the terrorist.

We need a better solution.

[simmo]

2 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

Hardly rocket science. Don't alienate Muslims for the reason of their religion. Such a population regardless of whom, will hardly remain passive and likely be more non co operative best. In order to weed out those set to create terror in our communities we require all on side. We certainly should never allow the bile spewed by the extreme right to determine narrative. They have their own reasons and pose a serious long term thread themselves.

So we don't mention islam or critique the koran in fear that this "population" will become less "passive" and "non co operative"?

[Guest263228]

7 minutes ago, Sunset said:

Growing up on a canal barge i remember very few faces other than white, yeah there was west indians and some indians/pakistanis about, but all went about being normal everyday folk things. Now it's like east meets west no holds barred? 

Most of those faces I remember are now elder statesmen/women within those communities they need to be doing more being LOUDER in reaction, outing the backroom goings on at mosques and above the corner shop, it goes on we all know it now and so do they. Name and shame.

Yes. I suspect the young in part don't heed a lot of attention to their elders. But the community as a whole has so much to gain but outing people, preferably before the radicalisation process has gone to far. We hear constantly of the negatives with the voices of those constantly speaking out, somehow not given the same media coverage. It does keeps peoples minds of course from other maters impacting the nation. Like what a poor job the present Tory government are doing.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

Yes. I suspect the young in part don't heed a lot of attention to their elders. But the community as a whole has so much to gain but outing people, preferably before the radicalisation process has gone to far. We hear constantly of the negatives with the voices of those constantly speaking out, somehow not given the same media coverage. It does keeps peoples minds of course from other maters impacting the nation. Like what a poor job the present Tory government are doing.

And the shitty labor one that lied and got the world into this shit, don't talk politics it's a silly argument. The issue is what to do now, time for rubbish talk as long gone it aint worked up to now.

[bunbury61]

8 hours ago, newjez said:

We're at war. We have been since Iraq. Sooner people realise that, sooner we can work towards a solution.

we have been at war since the 7th century

[simmo]

unfortunately but not surprisingly 66% of muslims would not tip off the police.

https://www.asian-voice.com/News/UK/66-of-British-Muslims-would-not-give-police-terror-tip-offs