Changes to pathway to Citizenship

[Isabelj28]

15 minutes ago, Felix123 said:

Thanks for finding it. So many seem to find PR to be the golden ticket. It is only a indefinite visa. Indefinite if you follow the rules.

And that's the point... the 'rules' can change... whereas if you have citizenship the 'rules' are fixed. That's why it's important to some people, not so they can sod off back to the Uk, but just so they have a sense of certainty in living here. My situation is this: my husband and I and my stepson have been here since 2011 on 457, then PR, now husband and I are citizens. Stepson has taken longer to apply for citizenship due to moving around in Oz and obtaining all the required evidence. He submitted on 20 April. Now he's on hold, because the Govt have announced this policy without doing the required planning, which means that by the time they get round to assessing the application, all the documentation will be out of date. Also, he completed his VCE here, (privately, so as to reduce the burden on taxpayers) what sense is there in making him do an English test!?!? There needs to be some consideration given to people who have done everything right based on the old 'rules'

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[Sheila]

English requirement is a Joke. I did IELTS 8 each to get my PR now they are expecting me to do 6 each again to get citizenship......!! This looks more like joint venture with IELTS conducting bodies like (AEO IDP British council ). Just a thought , what do u think?

[ian360]

51 minutes ago, Sheila said:

English requirement is a Joke. I did IELTS 8 each to get my PR now they are expecting me to do 6 each again to get citizenship......!! This looks more like joint venture with IELTS conducting bodies like (AEO IDP British council ). Just a thought , what do u think?

I have also wondered about this. I worked as an ESL teacher for a few years and the whole IELTS thing was often a big money machine.

[path2aus]

Why would they even have the secondary applicant fees if they want every one to have competent English? They need to fix the PR first and force everyone who are not native speakers to do the test at the PR level. It does not make sense to suddenly include the test and make people who have already done the test to do it again. My wife and I both took the test and got 6.5 and 8.0 respectively. Australia needs to first decide if they want skilled workers from all parts of the world or just from the English speaking countries. If you are bringing people from all parts of the world, the requirement of 6.0 is little too much I feel for lots of secondary applicants. You need to have them at functional level. The primary should be Proficient or Superior. That will fix the English requirement. Just get it over with at the PR level. This will stop people from applying for PR if they are not able to even prove functional English. Now making people to pay again for IELTS and have them do it again does not make sense. It is easy to check if an applicant has already done the test when you get their citizenship application when they got their PR, they take 9-10 months anyways to decide on applications.

[elderberry]

 

1 hour ago, Sheila said:

English requirement is a Joke. I did IELTS 8 each to get my PR now they are expecting me to do 6 each again to get citizenship......!! This looks more like joint venture with IELTS conducting bodies like (AEO IDP British council ). Just a thought , what do u think?

I've thought about this too. Logic says that if you got IELTS 8 in order to get your PR and you are now living in Australia, it is pretty unlikely that your English standard would get worse (other than aussie slang!) over the 4 years in the country.

I'm hopeful that they will take this into account and only need IELTS 6 or higher if you haven't passed the test to this level previously on a visa application. Of course, not all PRs did an IELTS test - British passport holders are assumed to have adequate English I believe, but some like me take the test anyway in order to increase the points total when applying.

[AJ]

1 hour ago, Sheila said:

English requirement is a Joke. I did IELTS 8 each to get my PR now they are expecting me to do 6 each again to get citizenship......!! This looks more like joint venture with IELTS conducting bodies like (AEO IDP British council ). Just a thought , what do u think?

Probably because it does not just affect English people. There are so many nationalities applying for citizenship they cannot have one test for some and make execptions for others, it has to be the same across the board or they will be accused of being racist.

Edited April 26, 2017 by AJ

[NicF]

2 hours ago, Sheila said:

English requirement is a Joke. I did IELTS 8 each to get my PR now they are expecting me to do 6 each again to get citizenship......!! This looks more like joint venture with IELTS conducting bodies like (AEO IDP British council ). Just a thought , what do u think?

Not all PR applications require English tests.  The partner visa does not and if you have been in a relationship for more than 3 years you get PR from the start.

I do find it interesting how many people want to apply for citizenship the day they become eligible, almost like they are desperate for it.  I do understand there are circumstances where it makes a difference and if you want to vote it is necessary, but I've not felt the big drive to apply myself.  My OH lived in the UK for 12 years before applying for citizenship and only applied because we were thinking of moving here.  I suspect I will be the same with Australian citizenship.  My OH's nephews wife is from Norway and has said she will never apply for citizenship as it would result in her loosing her rather generous Norweigen pension (she is in her 30s).

A PR visa is just that - permenant.  Once you have it you can live permenantly in Australia. You will even get consular assistance from Australia while overseas if needed if you are an Australian resident.  The only way they can take it away is if you are convicted of a crime that results in a 12 month prison sentance.  There was talk at one point, can't remember if it became lawm of stripping people of citizenship if they were convicted of terrorist offences and held citizenship elsewhere.  So even if you take Australian citizenship if you don't renounce your UK one there is still no guarentee you will get to keep it.  The only way to guarentee being able to stay in Australia is to be born and bred here and that's not something we can control as individuals.

[Keep me in oz]

35 minutes ago, NicF said:

Not all PR applications require English tests.  The partner visa does not and if you have been in a relationship for more than 3 years you get PR from the start.

I do find it interesting how many people want to apply for citizenship the day they become eligible, almost like they are desperate for it.  I do understand there are circumstances where it makes a difference and if you want to vote it is necessary, but I've not felt the big drive to apply myself.  My OH lived in the UK for 12 years before applying for citizenship and only applied because we were thinking of moving here.  I suspect I will be the same with Australian citizenship.  My OH's nephews wife is from Norway and has said she will never apply for citizenship as it would result in her loosing her rather generous Norweigen pension (she is in her 30s).

A PR visa is just that - permenant.  Once you have it you can live permenantly in Australia. You will even get consular assistance from Australia while overseas if needed if you are an Australian resident.  The only way they can take it away is if you are convicted of a crime that results in a 12 month prison sentance.  There was talk at one point, can't remember if it became lawm of stripping people of citizenship if they were convicted of terrorist offences and held citizenship elsewhere.  So even if you take Australian citizenship if you don't renounce your UK one there is still no guarentee you will get to keep it.  The only way to guarentee being able to stay in Australia is to be born and bred here and that's not something we can control as individuals.

PR expires after 5 years, so it actually isnt that permanent. Then you have to apply for a resident return visa. the fear amongst people is the change to legislation. What happens if your PR expires and the law changes and you no longer meet the criteria!? 

Citizenship is the icing on the cake and it cannot be taken away where as visa regulations can change, overnight even! 

[elderberry]

3 minutes ago, Keep me in oz said:

PR expires after 5 years, so it actually isnt that permanent. Then you have to apply for a resident return visa. the fear amongst people is the change to legislation. What happens if your PR expires and the law changes and you no longer meet the criteria!? 

Citizenship is the icing on the cake and it cannot be taken away where as visa regulations can change, overnight even! 

PR doesn't expire, you can stay in Australia indefinitely. It is only the travel facility that expires. You won't do yourselves any favours over here saying things like that, for example when trying to get a job.

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by elderberry

[Keep me in oz]

1 minute ago, elderberry said:

PR doesn't expire, you can stay in Australia indefinitely. It is only the travel facility that expires. You won't do yourselves any favours over here saying things like that, for example when trying to get a job.

 

Most employers require proof of your visa and the grant has an expiry date on it anyways so there is no point trying to hide it from an employer really. you are correct it is only the travel aspect that expires, simples then people will just have to stay here forever and not take overseas holidays! great solution!

[elderberry]

Just now, Keep me in oz said:

Most employers require proof of your visa and the grant has an expiry date on it anyways so there is no point trying to hide it from an employer really. you are correct it is only the travel aspect that expires, simples then people will just have to stay here forever and not take overseas holidays! great solution!

I'm not saying to hide it from an employer, nor am I saying that your point that things can change without warning is incorrect - there is certainly a risk as a PR, but it's nowhere near as much as temporary visas.

For a PR it has no expiry date. If you check on VEVO like I have done many times now when visiting agencies, it gives no expiry date just an 'enter before date' and 'period of stay' as indefinite. I am beyond the travel facility myself right now, but will be able to obtain an RRV once I've got employment - at least as things stand at the moment. I'm just pointing out its not wise to approach agencies and/or employers with any thought of an expiry of your visa, its not true and won't help you compete with your fellow Australians for that job.

 

 

[Keep me in oz]

4 minutes ago, elderberry said:

I'm not saying to hide it from an employer, nor am I saying that your point that things can change without warning is incorrect - there is certainly a risk as a PR, but it's nowhere near as much as temporary visas.

For a PR it has no expiry date. If you check on VEVO like I have done many times now when visiting agencies, it gives no expiry date just an 'enter before date' and 'period of stay' as indefinite. I am beyond the travel facility myself right now, but will be able to obtain an RRV once I've got employment - at least as things stand at the moment. I'm just pointing out its not wise to approach agencies and/or employers with any thought of an expiry of your visa, its not true and won't help you compete with your fellow Australians for that job.

 

 

thanks for the employment advice! good luck with your job hunt and RRV application. 

[NicF]

1 hour ago, Keep me in oz said:

PR expires after 5 years, so it actually isnt that permanent. Then you have to apply for a resident return visa. the fear amongst people is the change to legislation. What happens if your PR expires and the law changes and you no longer meet the criteria!? 

Citizenship is the icing on the cake and it cannot be taken away where as visa regulations can change, overnight even! 

PR visas do not expire, only the travel part expires.  If you are living in Australia with no intention of leaving you can continue to do so for as long as you want.  It's only if you need to travel that you need a RRV.  The travel part of my own PR visa expired in March.  I could have applied for citizenship last July but didn't bother and won't bother with a RRV until I intend to travel overseas.

[silencio]

I'm shocked that keepmeinoz doesn't understand the rules of a PR and providing wrong info. How will he or she comprehend citizenship application rules. I think that's a positive outcome for some to introduce an English test. My partner became citizen ladt August.I'm still PR though I'm eligible since Feb 2016! My PR has no expiry date, applied sucessfully for an RRV in June 2016. I'm also not applying for citizenship as I would lose pension benefits of my home country, especially early retirement part of it.

Edited April 26, 2017 by silencio

[Keep me in oz]

16 minutes ago, silencio said:

I'm shocked that keepmeinoz doesn't understand the rules of a PR and providing wrong info. How will he or she comprehend citizenship application rules. I think that's a positive outcome for some to introduce an English test. My partner became citizen ladt August.I'm still PR though I'm eligible since Feb 2016! My PR has no expiry date, applied sucessfully for an RRV in June 2016. I'm also not applying for citizenship as I would lose pension benefits of my home country, especially early retirement part of it.

I understand the rules just fine, thank you for your concern though! Enjoy your pension from both countries!

[Keep me in oz]

1 hour ago, NicF said:

PR visas do not expire, only the travel part expires.  If you are living in Australia with no intention of leaving you can continue to do so for as long as you want.  It's only if you need to travel that you need a RRV.  The travel part of my own PR visa expired in March.  I could have applied for citizenship last July but didn't bother and won't bother with a RRV until I intend to travel overseas.

 

The fact that the travel conditions expire is one and the same thing for me. I have to travel as part of my job and as my PR wont allow me to do so indefinitely it may as well expire! There comes a date where it is no longer the visa I need and I have to apply for another one which I have to meet the criteria for and that criteria can be changed at any time. Citizenship is the only thing (unless committing a serious offence) that has no conditions that expire. I am desperate for it, i need to be able to live a normal life. 

[ian360]

3 minutes ago, Keep me in oz said:

 

The fact that the travel conditions expire is one and the same thing for me. I have to travel as part of my job and as my PR wont allow me to do so indefinitely it may as well expire! There comes a date where it is no longer the visa I need and I have to apply for another one which I have to meet the criteria for and that criteria can be changed at any time. Citizenship is the only thing (unless committing a serious offence) that has no conditions that expire. I am desperate for it, i need to be able to live a normal life. 

This sounds fair enough to me!

[elderberry]

25 minutes ago, Keep me in oz said:

 

The fact that the travel conditions expire is one and the same thing for me. I have to travel as part of my job and as my PR wont allow me to do so indefinitely it may as well expire! There comes a date where it is no longer the visa I need and I have to apply for another one which I have to meet the criteria for and that criteria can be changed at any time. Citizenship is the only thing (unless committing a serious offence) that has no conditions that expire. I am desperate for it, i need to be able to live a normal life. 

So I take it your comment on thanks for the employment advice was simply being sarcastic then.

It doesn't change the fact that you are telling people that a Permanent Visa expires when it doesn't!

[Keep me in oz]

9 minutes ago, elderberry said:

So I take it your comment on thanks for the employment advice was simply being sarcastic then.

It doesn't change the fact that you are telling people that a Permanent Visa expires when it doesn't!

errrrm yea pretty much.

I'd still rather tell people that it expires so they know it has limitations and conditions which do expire rather than saying it doesn't expire just in case people don't know about those conditions! Better safe than sorry ?

Edited April 26, 2017 by Keep me in oz

[elderberry]

I cant see how telling people false information is particularly helpful.

[Keep me in oz]

5 minutes ago, elderberry said:

I cant see how telling people false information is particularly helpful.

It's not false, some of the conditions do expire which directly affect most people! 

Im sure most people wouldn't be happy with the fact they can stay here indefinitely as long as they don't leave and try to come back again. A lot of people will want/need to travel overseas which PR doesn't allow past those 5 years. Sorry if me using the word expire confused the situation. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Keep me in oz

[Fjbeadle]

Havnot read all the post but does seem like they are just falling in line with other countries. I got in citizenship a few years back. Same residency requirements. Was 2 yrs to get or then 5 for citizenship.

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[Guest]

 

31 minutes ago, Keep me in oz said:

errrrm yea pretty much.

I'd still rather tell people that it expires so they know it has limitations and conditions which do expire rather than saying it doesn't expire just in case people don't know about those conditions! Better safe than sorry ?

Generally, most people are not applying for jobs that will take them outside of Australia on a regular or even semi regular basis. Sure some will do FIFO or need to travel and I can appreciate if they intend to remain living in Aus that they would seek to apply for citizenship when they are able rather than delay.

However, until the travel period on the visa is up or due to expire soon it really isn't an issue for most. And given many then go for citizenship anyways, it doesn't become a problem for those people.

 Of course, you are welcome to do as you do and inform employers at the start of the process. I think you seem to be over doing it but given the nature of your employment and that is of course important to you, I can understand that. The reality for most is its really not something to worry about or tell an employer nor will it have any bearing on their employment. As to if they choose to opt for a RRV when needed or citizenship, each to their own

 

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Keep me in oz said:

It's not false, some of the conditions do expire which directly affect most people! 

Im sure most people wouldn't be happy with the fact they can stay here indefinitely as long as they don't leave and try to come back again. A lot of people will want/need to travel overseas which PR doesn't allow past those 5 years. Sorry if me using the word expire confused the situation. 

Hence the RRV for travel overseas after a set period of time. 

Its pretty straightforward for people to apply for. Lets not make it seem like its a closed door for all on PR to travel once the 5 years is up. Its far from that. You are making it sound far worse than it actually is.

Perhaps its terrible for you but from where I am sitting, I knew coming in what PR entailed, that a RRV would be required for overseas travel after X amount of time and that I could apply for citizenship well before this if I wished. It hasn't impacted on my life or jobs here one iota re eventually needing a RRV. I appreciate some who move over later in the 5 year window have less time and the RRV requirement kicks in before they have clocked up time to be able to apply for citizenship but people can find this all out going in, during and after the process. 

 

 

[unzippy]

How long does an RRV last, is it per trip or for a time period?