Set up free movement with Australia, former PM urges

[simmo]

Not sure if this is the right forum but it's an interesting concept.

 

Britain and Australia should set up a free movement zone after Brexit because they share “western norms of behaviour”, Tony Abbott has said.Mr Abbott, who was prime minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015, said the freedom of Britons and Australians to travel between the two countries “for work, not welfare” should be a condition of any future trade deal.

“The instant Britain did vote to leave the European Union, people in Australia started to think about the appropriate terms of a free trade deal,” he said. “I have to say they are very simple.

“Trade in goods should be absolutely free of tariffs and quotas. There should be full mutual recognition of standards and qualifications. And there should be free movement of people…

 

 

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[Home and Happy]

Yes this comes up a lot now on TV in the newspapers and in magazines.  Nice if it happens and I hope it will.  Half of UK would move over then, and probably all the young ones from Australia will come over here to work.

[Ferrets]

Zero chance.

If freedom of movement were to form a part of a trade deal between UK and Australia then there would be an expectation from other nations that the same would apply in turn.

Free movement with any trade deals is pretty contrary to the whole Brexit concept so can't see it happening.

[Slean Wolfhead]

The UK already said this wasn't an option.....Abbott raised it after Boris Johnson did in the UK, then BoJo was slapped down by the Home Sec, and Abbott was slapped down himself.

The reason is.....Australia will do a deal with the UK when it's in their best interests, and of course their will be a deal. 

Australia will also target the EU separately to pick up any slack left by the UK exit, and that potentially is a much bigger market for them.  So they can't and shouldn't promise the UK anything when they are likely to want to compete with the UK for EU business once there is a potential gap...farming exports for one.   The Brexit may also change the EU's negotiating stance with others and they may want to sew up quick deals with countries other than the UK.

[BacktoDemocracy]

On 12/3/2017 at 07:58, simmo said:

Not sure if this is the right forum but it's an interesting concept.

 

Is Australia realising that in 10 years time it's demographic is going to become much more Asian unless they can boost European migration, could that be a factor for Abbott.

[Guest263228]

On ‎26‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 01:37, BacktoDemocracy said:

Is Australia realising that in 10 years time it's demographic is going to become much more Asian unless they can boost European migration, could that be a factor for Abbott.

That could well be a factor with that man. At the moment Australia is growing in population at developing world levels. Far ahead of most developed countries outside of USA. This country could of course not sustain 'free immigration' access from UK. It is not coping well with record migration at the moment. But with the standard of politicians this country possesses such thoughts may not feature. Even The Greens are backing a Big Australia.  

[ScottieGirl]

On 25/09/2017 at 18:37, BacktoDemocracy said:

Is Australia realising that in 10 years time it's demographic is going to become much more Asian unless they can boost European migration, could that be a factor for Abbott.

Well he's  missed the boat in Sydney!

[Guest263228]

The old populate or perish slogan holds little sway anymore. Immigration is big business these days and sustains the economy to a large extent. The housing market would likely crush with out plane loads daily of new bod's.  Race barely features these days. Another concern in the future would be the undue influence a foreign Motherland would weigh over government due to influence in numbers residing here.

[Perthbum]

No thanks, we would be flooded with whinging Aussies.

[HibiscusDreams]

I can't see it happening. Though we share a lot of close personal/family and cultural ties, the economies are vastly different. Both countries also have a huge anti-immigration sentiment that politicians challenge to their doom. One Nation is doing well in QLD right now. Commonwealth government is on the ropes and is one constitutional crises away from being dissolved by the GG. 

If Abbott and his old school white Australia types want to whiten things up, it'd be an easy sell to do by promoting a crackdown on Asian immigration, rather than boosting European immigration to compete with it. 

[Guest263228]

The question being far too many migrants over a short frame time have entered thus lowering living standards, as infrastructure declines, housing market kept wildly over priced, educational faculties decline, wages stagnate etc, . It was/will be only a matter of time before the anti migrant sentiment becomes something less than desired and fringe movements benefit.

While non white migrants, whom dominate the inflow, would most likely be the prime target, all migration would be targeted in some way. Far better leaving the housing market to the 'free market'  and reduce migration by half but maintaining a non racial criteria.

No return to the days when Brit's above all else were given preference, even 'paid' to come out. All on their merits, but far less of relying on immigration to keep the economy 'ticking' over. I'm afraid taking into population difference, UK numbers would be too great for Australia to handle, if a 'free movement' was put in place.

[Gbye grey sky]

50 minutes ago, HibiscusDreams said:

I can't see it happening. Though we share a lot of close personal/family and cultural ties, the economies are vastly different. Both countries also have a huge anti-immigration sentiment that politicians challenge to their doom. One Nation is doing well in QLD right now. Commonwealth government is on the ropes and is one constitutional crises away from being dissolved by the GG. 

If Abbott and his old school white Australia types want to whiten things up, it'd be an easy sell to do by promoting a crackdown on Asian immigration, rather than boosting European immigration to compete with it. 

It is bizarre that the huge (Asian/Moslems) anti-immigrant sentiment in Queensland stems from areas where there are very few if any such immigrants anyway.

[Guest263228]

2 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said:

It is bizarre that the huge (Asian/Moslems) anti-immigrant sentiment in Queensland stems from areas where there are very few if any such immigrants anyway.

Not really. Racism well known to be formed  by ignorance in fear of the unknown, on top of already very conservative and somewhat conformist attitudes, it is hardly surprising. a gigantic reason I would not live in those parts.

[HibiscusDreams]

2 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Not really. Racism well known to be formed  by ignorance in fear of the unknown, on top of already very conservative and somewhat conformist attitudes, it is hardly surprising. a gigantic reason I would not live in those parts.

^^ This ^^. If you look anywhere in the world, it's always the more isolated regions that tend to be the most conservative and anti-immigrant, anti-lgbt etc. If you live in a diverse community you are more likely to know that foreigners aren't baby eating reptilians than someone who only reads about them in some Murdoch rag.

[Guest263228]

1 hour ago, HibiscusDreams said:

^^ This ^^. If you look anywhere in the world, it's always the more isolated regions that tend to be the most conservative and anti-immigrant, anti-lgbt etc. If you live in a diverse community you are more likely to know that foreigners aren't baby eating reptilians than someone who only reads about them in some Murdoch rag.

Indeed. But still best not to over try patience. The record migration numbers of recent times, is impacting hugely on cities. Sydney and Melbourne of course in particular. People will continue in ever greater numbers, unfortunately, to seek blame in those cities, as initial amazement among house owners that their properties had magnified many times over in value. Many more are feeling 'trapped' and 'missing out'  as time progresses. Worse still the government remains clueless how to tackle the problem or if even willing to tackle the problem, with interests elsewhere. 

[BacktoDemocracy]

On 13/11/2017 at 07:32, Pura Vida said:

Indeed. But still best not to over try patience. The record migration numbers of recent times, is impacting hugely on cities. Sydney and Melbourne of course in particular. People will continue in ever greater numbers, unfortunately, to seek blame in those cities, as initial amazement among house owners that their properties had magnified many times over in value. Many more are feeling 'trapped' and 'missing out'  as time progresses. Worse still the government remains clueless how to tackle the problem or if even willing to tackle the problem, with interests elsewhere. 

Same problem as uk, neo liberal, free trade thinking, a reliance on the 'market' to resolve all economic problems whilst relying on migrant inflows of wealth either in person or as inward investment into property creates a giant bubble which can only be sustained by allowing a substantial part of the populace to live in substandard conditions.

As in the UK once the building firms control the market they will control supply to maximise profit with the connivance of the finance world to provide mortgages that match the market created by the developers.

Without adequate govt control here in the UK the developers are building to lower and lower standards in terms of quality and space standards and concentrating on developing in ares where most profit can be made

[Guest263228]

2 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Same problem as uk, neo liberal, free trade thinking, a reliance on the 'market' to resolve all economic problems whilst relying on migrant inflows of wealth either in person or as inward investment into property creates a giant bubble which can only be sustained by allowing a substantial part of the populace to live in substandard conditions.

As in the UK once the building firms control the market they will control supply to maximise profit with the connivance of the finance world to provide mortgages that match the market created by the developers.

Without adequate govt control here in the UK the developers are building to lower and lower standards in terms of quality and space standards and concentrating on developing in ares where most profit can be made

I'm greatly afraid lapses in intelligence, being kind, in the Anglo Saxon sphere has damaged our countries irreparably. All built around greed and nepotism, together with a all too complacent, under politically educated ,populist    populations stuck in the groove of particular right wing advocated agendas.

[Zack]

On 28/05/2017 at 20:37, Home and Happy said:

Yes this comes up a lot now on TV in the newspapers and in magazines.  Nice if it happens and I hope it will.  Half of UK would move over then, and probably all the young ones from Australia will come over here to work.

It Would be a Disaster as usual Australia would want everything their way. . It's never worked for New Zealand and it wont for Britain.  ,Britain Needs to be very Careful of Australia's demands  The only thing Britain needs to take on from Australia is Australia's immigration policy nothing else.NO free Movement Deals.

[Paul1Perth]

3 hours ago, Zack said:

It Would be a Disaster as usual Australia would want everything their way. . It's never worked for New Zealand and it wont for Britain.  ,Britain Needs to be very Careful of Australia's demands  The only thing Britain needs to take on from Australia is Australia's immigration policy nothing else.NO free Movement Deals.

One good thing to happen so far is Aus passport holders now go to the same line as Brits when entering the UK. Along with a lot of other countries, Singapore being one for some reason? 

I heard the UK envoy talking about it on the radio this morning.

Can't see a free movement deal happening. Too risky for both sides. People smugglers would find some way to exploit it.

[Pominuk]

I think it would be good to do something for work purposes but not a free for all like the EU deal was.

[Ken]

I don't see it happening despite Australia already having a free movement of people trade deal with New Zealand. The UK has a much larger population than New Zealand and Australia would undoubtedly be concerned about large numbers of unskilled people suddenly turning up.

You should also note that the New Zealand trade deal stripped New Zealanders of the opportunity to use the skilled migration pathways and it should be expected a similar scheme for the UK would do the same. I believe there's a new scheme to set up a PR/citizenship pathway for New Zealanders but nearly all are here as temporary residents. There are many disadvantages to always being a temporary resident.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Ken

[Marisawright]

6 minutes ago, Ken said:

I don't see it happening despite Australia already having a free movement of people trade deal with New Zealand.

Brits got all excited about it, but missed the fact that the suggestion was to allow people to travel freely to Australia for work.   

[GrandpaGrumble]

On 29/03/2021 at 15:36, Ken said:

I don't see it happening despite Australia already having a free movement of people trade deal with New Zealand. The UK has a much larger population than New Zealand and Australia would undoubtedly be concerned about large numbers of unskilled people suddenly turning up.

You should also note that the New Zealand trade deal stripped New Zealanders of the opportunity to use the skilled migration pathways and it should be expected a similar scheme for the UK would do the same. I believe there's a new scheme to set up a PR/citizenship pathway for New Zealanders but nearly all are here as temporary residents. There are many disadvantages to always being a temporary resident.

New Zealanders can still use the skilled migration pathways, same as everyone else.

The problem is that most of them don't go down that route because it's much easier to just roll up and be given the 'temporary but indefinite' 444 visa, whether or not they would have stood a chance with the skilled pathway.  They can then stay as long as they like but, as you say, never become legally 'permanent' (unless they get a partner visa or whatever).

What changed was that before September 1994 they were automatically given permanent residency.  [That's why any Kiwi who visited before then is a 'former permanent resident', and can get the RRV if they can show 'substantial ties' and give a good account of why they haven't moved here before now.]  If they arrived between then and 2001 they're 'eligible NZ citizens' but I won't go into that.

The 'new scheme' you mention is perhaps the 'NZ 189' visa which grants permanent residency if you've been here since before February 2016 and are earning roughly the average wage or more.  But that was more about horse-trading, and drawing a line, than any great concession - though some people will have benefited from it.

I guess the relevance to this thread is that Australia is gradually making it harder for Kiwis to come here, and are unlikely to make it easier for people from third countries like the UK.  Though I suppose the immigration dip caused by covid might change that in the short to medium term.

The other thing that tends to bug Kiwis is that it's much easier for Aussies in NZ to gain citizenship, access welfare benefits etc. than it is the other way round:

https://ozkiwi2001.org/2016/03/rights-comparison/

Edited March 30, 2021 by GrandpaGrumble