eu referendum update

[Roberta2]

He will have to be blasted out of (shadow) office. Half the shadow cabinet has deserted him, and he is still digging in. Changed party rules make it much harder for Labour to get rid of duds like him. Structures do matter! Of course, he can't last. But he is doing his best to invoke a sense of deepening crisis. Just wait until global markets open today.

[newjez]

Petrol has been creeping up for the last 6 months as the price of oil has been rising. Nothing to do with the vote or campaign. House prices are booming at this moment, no sign of a slow down.

 

 

Of course it has

 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-oil-idUSKCN0ZA00G

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/drivers-warned-petrol-prices-set-8278231

[Keith and Linda]

His column said: "I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be." Wasnt he campaigning to leave?

this whole referendum was just a big waste of tax payers money. Nothing will change. Oh well I am happy he bottled it.

 

Why do folk like you 'cherry pick' words and ignore the whole context? Britain is part of Europe the only difference is that it, like some other European countries, will not be in the EU. Trade will still happen, I cannot see German car makers stop exporting cars to the UK.

Oh! and by the way it was the UK taxpayers which were wanting the referendum.

[Rallyman]

What area was that?

 

 

You tell me you stated that there are very few , I know for a fact this is not true , as before I moved to Australia I lived in Wales for 44 years.

 

Coming out out with comments like this , which happens on both sides is the problem ,statements which are totally untrue and causes hysteria ,the whole in out is like a juggernaut running down a hill out of control. neither camp can hold their heads high,

 

The country had a referendum nothing in actual fact in law has changed yet we only know the result of the referendum. Eu laws are still in place until the government of the day decide to trigger the required procedure to exit nothing is going to change until this is triggered.

The media are hyping everything up .you can bet your bottom dollar that the money men who actually call the shots on how the country is run will in the long term make a lot of money out of all this.

 

David Cameron has a lot to answer for IMHO, he promised a referendum as part of the Tory pre election manifesto to get elected as he knew the EU was big issue with voters ,never in his wildest dreams did he think that the country would vote to leave , and now when it has he is jumping ship leaving somebody else to sort the mess out.

I really don't like the guy

 

The whole thing is a total mess, but as some on here are calling people who voted out as xenophobic says more about that person they are the ones who have a problem ,not everyone who voted out did so on the sole grounds of immigration, there were other issues, I read a article from Sir John Bamford and also from sir James Dyson criticising the red tape put in place running business , and what they said was fully understandable, along with other factors of non elected members having far to much say on laws of the country , also a feeding trough with failed political people given fat cat jobs in the EU by their mates in government.

[winter1]

Just heard a report from Beijing the Chinese currently negotiating a free trade deal with the EU with the UK being one of the leading supporters in the negotiations of the deal, have said they are reluctant to try and negotiate a single deal with the UK.

[flag of convenience]

While not everybody who voted out was necessary xenophobic, it would be a fair bet that every xenophobe voted to be outed. Certainly gave an apparent believe in some that xenophobic behaviour at a street level was back in fashion.

[Gbye grey sky]

You tell me you stated that there are very few , I know for a fact this is not true , as before I moved to Australia I lived in Wales for 44 years.

 

Coming out out with comments like this , which happens on both sides is the problem ,statements which are totally untrue and causes hysteria ,the whole in out is like a juggernaut running down a hill out of control. neither camp can hold their heads high,

 

The country had a referendum nothing in actual fact in law has changed yet we only know the result of the referendum. Eu laws are still in place until the government of the day decide to trigger the required procedure to exit nothing is going to change until this is triggered.

The media are hyping everything up .you can bet your bottom dollar that the money men who actually call the shots on how the country is run will in the long term make a lot of money out of all this.

 

David Cameron has a lot to answer for IMHO, he promised a referendum as part of the Tory pre election manifesto to get elected as he knew the EU was big issue with voters ,never in his wildest dreams did he think that the country would vote to leave , and now when it has he is jumping ship leaving somebody else to sort the mess out.

I really don't like the guy

 

The whole thing is a total mess, but as some on here are calling people who voted out as xenophobic says more about that person they are the ones who have a problem ,not everyone who voted out did so on the sole grounds of immigration, there were other issues, I read a article from Sir John Bamford and also from sir James Dyson criticising the red tape put in place running business , and what they said was fully understandable, along with other factors of non elected members having far to much say on laws of the country , also a feeding trough with failed political people given fat cat jobs in the EU by their mates in government.

 

You want me to tell you what part of Wales you lived in?

[newjez]

Even the Sun has changed its tune!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/1335107/holidays-wages-and-mobile-phone-calls-how-leaving-the-eu-will-affect-your-wallet/

 

Will house prices rise or fall?

It’s good news for first time buyers who are struggling to get on the property ladder.

The Treasury claimed house prices could be hit by between ten per cent and 18 per cent over the next two years, meaning it will be easier to buy.

House prices in London are likely to take the biggest hit, losing and average of £7,500 in three years, according to National Association of Estate Agents.

The average outside London is will be around £2,300.

But it all depends on the Bank Of England’s stance on interest rates.

[Suzukiscottie]

Petrol has been creeping up for the last 6 months as the price of oil has been rising.

 

You've changed your tune. Only yesterday you were claiming that the price of oil was at rock bottom!

[newjez]

And he talks about feeedom of movement? so what exactly are we getting with Brexit that Remain does not have?

 

 

But he also talks of a points based system. Is that for non EU people, or do we have freedom of movement, but EU people don't. Can't see them agreeing to that. He has contradicted himself.

[newjez]

article 50 will not be invoked...mark my words.

 

 

But I thought you wanted to leave???

[newjez]

He didn't campaign hard enough! He should hang his head in shame and leave.

 

I think he is just waiting for the Chilcot report on Iraq war to be published, then I imagine he will go. He won't want a leadership battle till this has cleared the room.

[Johndoe]

[Johndoe]

The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.

 

This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.

 

A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.

 

Immigration was exploited in the campaign with consummate cynicism, not only by populist politicians from the lunar right, but by Labour politicians drawing on their own venerable tradition of promoting and nurturing racism, a symptom of corruption not at the bottom but at the top. The reason millions of refugees have fled the Middle East - irst Iraq, now Syria - are the invasions and imperial mayhem of Britain, the United States, France, the European Union and Nato. Before that, there was the wilful destruction of Yugoslavia. Before that, there was the theft of Palestine and the imposition of Israel.

 

The pith helmets may have long gone, but the blood has never dried. A nineteenth century contempt for countries and peoples, depending on their degree of colonial usefulness, remains a centrepiece of modern "globalisation", with its perverse socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor: its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour; its perfidious politicians and politicised civil servants.

 

All this has now come home to Europe, enriching the likes of Tony Blair and impoverishing and disempowering millions. On 23 June, the British said no more.

 

The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".

 

The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain's second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, "experiencing the effects of extreme poverty" and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.

 

Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about "leaving Europe", as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.

 

Read more : http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe

[Gbye grey sky]

The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.

 

This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.

 

A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.

 

Immigration was exploited in the campaign with consummate cynicism, not only by populist politicians from the lunar right, but by Labour politicians drawing on their own venerable tradition of promoting and nurturing racism, a symptom of corruption not at the bottom but at the top. The reason millions of refugees have fled the Middle East - irst Iraq, now Syria - are the invasions and imperial mayhem of Britain, the United States, France, the European Union and Nato. Before that, there was the wilful destruction of Yugoslavia. Before that, there was the theft of Palestine and the imposition of Israel.

 

The pith helmets may have long gone, but the blood has never dried. A nineteenth century contempt for countries and peoples, depending on their degree of colonial usefulness, remains a centrepiece of modern "globalisation", with its perverse socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor: its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour; its perfidious politicians and politicised civil servants.

 

All this has now come home to Europe, enriching the likes of Tony Blair and impoverishing and disempowering millions. On 23 June, the British said no more.

 

The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".

 

The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain's second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, "experiencing the effects of extreme poverty" and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.

 

Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about "leaving Europe", as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.

 

Read more : http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe

 

Is it any different outside the EU though? Indeed has the EU as an organisation made this more pronounced? I would argue not.

 

Perhaps it was just a protest vote but it was the wrong protest. This will not spark a changing of the guard and if it ever did the new guard would be no different. I like Pilger but he is an idealist who wants everyone's motives to be pure.

[Roberta2]

I presume that the UK, once out of the EU, will have to negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU that will have to include free movement of people. One of the big differences, of course, is that Britain will be negotiating from a position of weakness. As to immigration from non EU countries, yes the Australian point system might be seen as a good model. There could also be bilateral negotiations with individual countries such as Australia, NZ and Canada that would involve reciprocal work rights etc. (We hear a lot from the conservatives about the virtues of the so-called Anglosphere.) Like for example, our bilateral agreement with New Zealand. New Zealand citizens can come to Australia without visas. However, they no longer get the welfare benefits they once did. That is mostly because New Zealand allows unrestricted immigration from islands in the South Pacific. Once in NZ, they can easily get NZ citizenship. Every NZ Prime Minister who gets into office complains about this - as he/she must, given domestic imperatives. But it is unlikely to change. The ALP did not change these arrangements when it was in office federally. Australia is also negotiating a series of agreements with Singapore, which might eventually lead to Australians and Singaporeans having reciprocal work rights etc. I don't claim to be an expert on immigration matters....

[Roberta2]

Is there any odious left wing regime on the planet that Pilger has not been an apologist for? Do we hear him complaining about Putin using "outlawed" weapons - thermite bombs etc- against civilian targets in Aleppo?

[Roberta2]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel's chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, was reported as saying: "Politicians in London should have the possibility to reconsider the consequences of an exit." Hmmm. Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Merkel in cahoots? Sturgeon has certainly thrown a spanner in the works, though I strongly suspect that she has had legal advice that her ploy is a bluff. But it might help buy time. Time for what? For Labour to get rid of that useless Corbyn, for starters. For the contradictions in the Leave campaign to become more and more obvious. As people become more aware of what it means for their pensions, and the future of their grandchildren etc etc. How many have now signed that petition for another referendum? 3 million last I heard. Referenda are not enshrined in the British constitution - which is not a written document anyway. (The writers of the Australian constitution were aware of the dangers of populism - which is why so few referenda succeed - you need a majority of voters in a majority of states.) The parliament in Westminister is sovereign. It's a numbers game now, on the floor of the House of Commons. Maybe not all is lost yet...But it is the biggest upheaval in UK politics since when...Suez in 1956???

[Parley]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel's chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, was reported as saying: "Politicians in London should have the possibility to reconsider the consequences of an exit." Hmmm. Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Merkel in cahoots? Sturgeon has certainly thrown a spanner in the works, though I strongly suspect that she has had legal advice that her ploy is a bluff. But it might help buy time. Time for what? For Labour to get rid of that useless Corbyn, for starters. For the contradictions in the Leave campaign to become more and more obvious. As people become more aware of what it means for their pensions, and the future of their grandchildren etc etc. How many have now signed that petition for another referendum? 3 million last I heard. Referenda are not enshrined in the British constitution - which is not a written document anyway. (The writers of the Australian constitution were aware of the dangers of populism - which is why so few referenda succeed - you need a majority of voters in a majority of states.) The parliament in Westminister is sovereign. It's a numbers game now, on the floor of the House of Commons. Maybe not all is lost yet...But it is the biggest upheaval in UK politics since when...Suez in 1956???

 

So you think democracy is over-rated ?

[Quinkla]

So you think democracy is over-rated ?

This is not really democracy, though. This is a single question asked at a single point in time – being asked of a population that demonstrably did not understand the issues and who were fed misinformation.

You might just as well have asked medieval Italians to vote on whether the Earth was flat or whether it was spherical and orbited the sun. You would have got a majority, sure, but it wouldn’t have made the conclusion correct. And you wouldn’t have realistically expected the Copernicans to respect the views of the flat earthers because their opinions were ill-informed, ignorant and, basically, not worthy of respect.

Democracy should be about the public choosing a strategic direction based on ethos, electing people who have the time and talent to debate issues and reach conclusions based on evidence. Where you have people casting their vote simply as “a protest”, or who need to Google post hoc to find out what they have voted for, then you are not seeing democracy – you are seeing its very antithesis.

[Roberta2]

Parliamentary democracy is a very different thing from populism. Political Science 101. Which might well be the crux of the issue right now. Presumably Cameron's successor must reflect the outcome of the referendum, and be a Brexiteer. There are 330 Tory MPs. But there is only 1 UKIP MP. There are 229 Labour members and 56 Scottish nationalists. 8 Lib Dems. I don't know the exact split among the Tories on Brexit. Does anyone? But the numbers are certainly against the Brexiteers. But on this issue, if Cameron's successor is a Brexiteer, he/she will not be able command a majority on the floor of the Commons. Hence there will have to be a new election, and soon. (One of the reasons Labour needs to dump Corbyn asap.) The Lisbon Treaty cannot be invoked unless a British prime minister officially informs the EU that Britain wants to leave. No British Prime Minister in modern times has ever made a decision critical to the nation's future without being able to say he/she could command a majority on the floor of the Commons. Even in the darkest days of the war, when Churchill was at the head of a unity government, he would have had to resign if he could not continue to command the Commons. Stable parliamentary democracies resolve their crises by elections, as Australia did during the constitutional crisis of 1975. Maybe all is not lost. A lot of people are now staring into the abyss. The crisis could yet be moved out of the populist orbit so loved by UKIP into the arena of traditional parliamentary democracy, where it belongs.Of course, there could well be major alignments of political parties. The Tories will split, presumably. ?????????????????

[Gbye grey sky]

Parliamentary democracy is a very different thing from populism. Political Science 101. Which might well be the crux of the issue right now. Presumably Cameron's successor must reflect the outcome of the referendum, and be a Brexiteer. There are 330 Tory MPs. But there is only 1 UKIP MP. There are 229 Labour members and 56 Scottish nationalists. 8 Lib Dems. I don't know the exact split among the Tories on Brexit. Does anyone? But the numbers are certainly against the Brexiteers. But on this issue, if Cameron's successor is a Brexiteer, he/she will not be able command a majority on the floor of the Commons. Hence there will have to be a new election, and soon. (One of the reasons Labour needs to dump Corbyn asap.) The Lisbon Treaty cannot be invoked unless a British prime minister officially informs the EU that Britain wants to leave. No British Prime Minister in modern times has ever made a decision critical to the nation's future without being able to say he/she could command a majority on the floor of the Commons. Even in the darkest days of the war, when Churchill was at the head of a unity government, he would have had to resign if he could not continue to command the Commons. Stable parliamentary democracies resolve their crises by elections, as Australia did during the constitutional crisis of 1975. Maybe all is not lost. A lot of people are now staring into the abyss. The crisis could yet be moved out of the populist orbit so loved by UKIP into the arena of traditional parliamentary democracy, where it belongs.Of course, there could well be major alignments of political parties. The Tories will split, presumably. ?????????????????

 

The Spectator some months back said that 177 Tories had declared for Remain and 138 for Leave with 14 unaligned. I believe about 10 Labour MPs were for Leave so Brexiters make up about 25% of the House of Commons and the minority of Tories.

 

I started another thread on whether there should be a UK election and with MPs so out of step with the electorate on this it increasingly looks like this must happen.

[Quinkla]

MPs may have personal views on Brexit, but many will feel bound by the outcome of a referendum. Ignoring the outcome could be disastrous.

[paul1977]

Will house prices rise or fall?

It’s good news for first time buyers who are struggling to get on the property ladder.

The Treasury claimed house prices could be hit by between ten per cent and 18 per cent over the next two years, meaning it will be easier to buy.

House prices in London are likely to take the biggest hit, losing and average of £7,500 in three years, according to National Association of Estate Agents.

The average outside London is will be around £2,300.

But it all depends on the Bank Of England’s stance on interest rates.

How will house prices fall when there's a housing shortage ..?

[Quinkla]

How will house prices fall when there's a housing shortage ..?

Because (a) demand will fall and (b) people will have less money to spend.