Lambethlad Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Is this fair? Normally I have no problem sending criminals back to where they came from. This 30 yo woman has been in Oz 28 years from the age of 2 - she has five children. She never obtained Oz citizenship. I think an exception should be made in this case. It would be extremely cruel to separate her from her children and send her to a place where she has no family and no connection with. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3605123/Geelong-mother-five-facing-deportation-Australia-England-extensive-criminal-past.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 The answer is that it is not fair, but when you set up mandatory outcomes for prescribed situations (in this case, mandatory deportation of a non-national who has served 12 months in prison) you get unfair outcomes. It is a lesson to politicians who introduce mandatory sentencing to win support from electors who have not needed to think deeply on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Been in Oz 28 years from the age of 2. She never obtained Oz citizenship. = Good Bye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) It certainly is a very different situation to somebody who came over as an adult and in their first year or two obtained a custodial sentence for a serious crime. You could argue that this is a cruel and unusual punishment due to her circumstances. But then again the law has to be clear on its rules, so where would it draw the line? If you emigrate as a child you can stay but as an adult and you would be deported? If you had spend more of your life in Australia versus more of your life elsewhere? Maybe. There is a lot of reference to the abuse that triggered the crime, but that could be exaggerated or even made up to provide a particular slant to the story and she does appear to have a track record of committing crimes, still I don't like the export of problems Edited May 23, 2016 by Bungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 what Quinkla said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 But then again the law has to be clear on its rules, so where would it draw the line? I would resist the urge to draw lines - as this tends to result in injustice. The rule is that you don't kill your partner. How you handle the situation when someone breaks the rule should be a matter for discretion. Situations that affect people and their families in life-changing ways deserve to be dealt with according to discretion, not slavish adherence to rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I would resist the urge to draw lines - as this tends to result in injustice. The rule is that you don't kill your partner. How you handle the situation when someone breaks the rule should be a matter for discretion. Situations that affect people and their families in life-changing ways deserve to be dealt with according to discretion, not slavish adherence to rules. Some discretion, but not total discretion as that can lead to hugely varying punishments. There are already guidelines on things like minimum and maximum sentences, it isn't left to the complete discretion of one person on one day. Do you not think the options I have suggested, which would consider how long the individual has been in Australia an whether they were a child at the time would help? I think it would benefit this individual, more than complete discretion would, because with complete discretion the judge could still decide that they should be deported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calNgary Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Yes its harsh to send her back but it reads like she has continually committed various crimes over the years, so she will have to deal with the consequences of this. At least the kids have close family here that are willing to take them on. Cal x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxlornaxx Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Well she wasn't thinking of her kids when she was committing all those crimes and facing being in prison away from them...kids appear to be last thing on her mind...sad for kids but just coz someone has kids shouldn't make them have special privileges...I say send her back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambethlad Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 I would give her one more chance. I know it could be argued she has been jailed 11 times so she has had plenty of chances to reform already but this is the first time she has been threatened with deportation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Is this fair? Normally I have no problem sending criminals back to where they came from. This 30 yo woman has been in Oz 28 years from the age of 2 - she has five children. She never obtained Oz citizenship. I think an exception should be made in this case. It would be extremely cruel to separate her from her children and send her to a place where she has no family and no connection with.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3605123/Geelong-mother-five-facing-deportation-Australia-England-extensive-criminal-past.html Well, I think the Australian legal system are about to pay a lot of money to determine whether it's fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 She did murder her step father as well as various other crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambethlad Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 She did murder her step father as well as various other crimes. Yes, but she was only 14 and got let off with a good behaviour bond. She has since been jailed many times including for assault and burglary with weapons so she is no angel but I would still give her one more chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I don't think it's about more chances. The basic principle is that if someone is part of the Australian community, then it is for the Australian community to manage the situation if things go wrong - however often they go wrong. But if someone is not part of the Australian community, then when things go wrong you can send them back to their own community. Someone who has lived in Australia as long as they can remember, who was educated here, has a family here - they are part of the Australian community and should not be at jeopardy of being deported, regardless of how badly they offend or how often they offend. Whether or not someone is part of the Australian community is a judgement call. It simply doesn't lend itself to tick boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 No. The basic principle is that if you are not an Australian citizen and are a serious or habitual criminal you will be deported to your country of citizenship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 No. The basic principle is that if you are not an Australian citizen and are a serious or habitual criminal you will be deported to your country of citizenship. No, you are confusing the policy objective with the process by which it is hoped to effect the objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booma Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 she already had chances & keeps breaking the law. she might be part of the criminal community but shes not part of the normal community. send her back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JockinTas Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Yes, but she was only 14 and got let off with a good behaviour bond. She has since been jailed many times including for assault and burglary with weapons so she is no angel but I would still give her one more chance. I feel sorry for her five children. She may be a rubbish member of the community but just for the sake of her children, let her stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I feel sorry for her five children. She may be a rubbish member of the community but just for the sake of her children, let her stay. Or just export them too .. if she's the legal guardian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 (edited) Yes, but she was only 14 and got let off with a good behaviour bond. She has since been jailed many times including for assault and burglary with weapons so she is no angel but I would still give her one more chance.Looks like she has had 15 years worth of chances! Would you say the same if it was a single guy with no kids?She obviously hasnt bothered about her kids welfare before now. Off she goes! Edited May 24, 2016 by AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Would you say the same if it was a single guy with no kids? In this case, yes I would. The single guy would have been fully educated in Australia and lived in Australia for all the life that he can remember. Fully and unquestionably part of the Australian community and not part of any other community. But I can see that sometimes where things are less clear cut, the establishment of a family in Australia would increase the sense that the person was part of our community and not part of an overseas community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calNgary Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 I feel sorry for her five children. She may be a rubbish member of the community but just for the sake of her children, let her stay. At first i did, then i read they dont live with her anyway, the kids are split up, 3 already living with their grandparents (their deceased fathers parents), 1 with his father in WA and 1 with her mothers mother. I personally think the 'want to be with my kids' is a playing card in the battle she is playing to stay. If she keeps regular contact on-line as one article states ,this can be done from any country that has internet, including the UK.. Cal x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wa7 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 As much as a basket case that she sounds she has been here a long time, probably a lot longer than a few on here, the technicality that she never obtained citizenship doesn't really make it ok, I would be a little surprised if it actually did happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 unquestionably part of the Australian community So she *IS* a citizen then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Hardly a good role model for her kids and they are probably going to be better off without her but it would seem there is no reason she couldn't take her kids with her. Cheerio! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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