Am I missing something?

[Guest]

They used to be regarded as an Adelaide speciality in Australia. When I lived there in the '70s there was a pie cart at the Adelaide train station which was famous for its pie-floaters, apparently (never tried them myself).

 

Have never seen them anywhere else in Oz either.

 

They used to be popular amongst the tradesmen up on the Gold Coast when I lived there. Never tried one myself either. :smile:

[JockinTas]

I think Harry's Cafe De Wheels in Sydney serves a pie floater. Never tried one either.

[bristolman]

They used to be popular amongst the tradesmen up on the Gold Coast when I lived there. Never tried one myself either. :smile:

 

I always thought they were pretty disgusting, I just can't see the reasoning behind it.

[Marisawright]

I must admit, after spending a month there, I just don't get it. Australia is by far the overated place

I have ever been.

 

There is a distinct lack of culture, the food is terrible (fish and chips anyone?) extremely expensive, borderline backwards and I genuinely felt like I had stepped into a time machine and came out in 1962.

 

I really wanted to love Australia, it was a dream to go there. But I have never been so underwhelmed in my life. There is very little to do there. I'm glad I went because I actually find myself appreciating the UK a lot more.

 

I would love to visit again, but the East Coast where I've heard there is much more culture and things to see/do.

 

 

I see you've been getting it with both barrels for daring to speak up about this! I'm one of those who is leaving Australia for various other reasons, but the lack of culture and things to see/do is part of it (and I live on the East Coast!). Having said that, I've been very happy in Sydney for 30 years - it's only now I've semi-retired and have lots of time on my hands that it's not enough for me any more.

 

I don't know why so many Brits still see it as a paradise.

[MARYROSE02]

I see you've been getting it with both barrels for daring to speak up about this! I'm one of those who is leaving Australia for various other reasons, but the lack of culture and things to see/do is part of it (and I live on the East Coast!). Having said that, I've been very happy in Sydney for 30 years - it's only now I've semi-retired and have lots of time on my hands that it's not enough for me any more.

 

I don't know why so many Brits still see it as a paradise.

 

I've never seen Sydney as 'paradise!' More like Hell at various times in my time here, although I've never blamed Sydney (or Australia) for my problems. I don't like commuting in Sydney, but I didn't like doing it in the UK either.

 

I don't agree with you about the lack of culture and things to do, either. As I've said before, I admit to being somewhat of a cultural Philistine, and living in Sydney, that is unforgiveable. Belvoir St theatre just around the corner from my flat, putting on, I don't know, twenty different plays a year on two stages. The Sydney Opera HQ also just down the road, and I've never booked a tour, and never bought a ticket for opera at the Opera House. Then, off the top of my head, there is the Sydney Theatre Co down at Millers Point - two different theatre co's there aren't there? I saw 'The History Boys' at one, and David Williamson's 'The Removalists' at the other, and 'Hamlet' (in German) at one of them. I've been to the Ensemble at Kirribilli where a friend of mine has a season ticket. Where else? Seymour Theatre on the corner of City Road and Clevo St, NADA at UNSW. There's a jazz club - 505 - 100 metres from my flat, putting on bands six nights a week, not that I like jazz. Riverside Theatres at Parra, Dame Joan Sutherland Centre at Penrith, Star Theatre at Pyrmont (where I saw Kevin Spacey in 'Richard III)

 

There seems to be a foreign film festival every month - Spanish this month, German next month. There is Goethe Institute if you want German language and culture, Alliance Francais for French, one in Leichhardt for Italian. I'm only listing all these things, because i don't understand how Sydney can be damned as 'lacking in culture?' It's not The West End or Broadway, but then how many cities are? The West End was two hours away at least from my home in Hampshire.

 

With time on your hands, like me, you could sign up for an Open University Australia degree, and get all the culture and history you want from a Humanities degree. I'm doing Philosophy - taught by a English professor, who seems to be happy enough living in Australia with his family. Sydney Uni offers non-degree courses in various subjects, with study tours to Europe available if it's the physical side of Europe you want. But then again, you could immerse yourself in Asian culture and language. My brother has signed up with the Open Uni to learn Chinese.

 

There's nothing wrong with going back to the UK. I went back for twelve years! But it never felt like I had left a cultural backwater for an 'ocean' of things to do. Some of the things were different, some the same. The one big thing I miss is being able to get on my bicycle at my front door and ride off into The New Forest

[JockinTas]

I see you've been getting it with both barrels for daring to speak up about this! I'm one of those who is leaving Australia for various other reasons, but the lack of culture and things to see/do is part of it (and I live on the East Coast!). Having said that, I've been very happy in Sydney for 30 years - it's only now I've semi-retired and have lots of time on my hands that it's not enough for me any more.

 

I don't know why so many Brits still see it as a paradise.

 

I certainly don't see Australia as a paradise but then after living in a few different countries over the years I don't think there is such a place. I feel sorry for migrants who find it very hard to settle here and if they are really unhappy they should pack up and go back home. Life is too short. Live where you are content.

 

I am very happy and settled in Tasmania - more so than I was on the mainland. Other people would hate it here - it's colder and has a much slower pace of life - but that suits me just fine. I'll be back in my Scottish home town next week - another lovely place - but not paradise :wink:

[newjez]

Australia used to be cheap.

 

Then it was expensive but well paid.

 

Now it's just expensive.

 

I guess the shine has come off for some.

[Que Sera Sera]

Australia used to be cheap.

 

Then it was expensive but well paid.

 

Now it's just expensive.

 

I guess the shine has come off for some.

 

It is still well paid, for most. Not sure if that's going to continue, but it is at the moment.

[ali]

I don't know why so many Brits still see it as a paradise.

 

I'm not sure they do - but is anywhere when you have to live, work, pay the bills etc., etc.,

 

I don't think the response to the OP was because he didn't like his time here, but rather the small frame of reference that others were unable to grasp from their own experiences. Everyone's experiences are unique and as we've seen many times on the forum, everyone has a different perspective - doesn't make either of them wrong.

[JockinTas]

I'm retired now and I don't find living in Tasmania expensive. For young people with a mortgage and children yes, very expensive.

[silencio]

Though I love WA and Perth - for me the most beautiful part of Australia - it hasn't met your expectations. It's nothing right or wrong with that, everyone has the right for a personal opinion based on experiences. Otherwise we would all be the same - how boring!

Luckily not everyone likes WA and Perth would even be more overcrowded than it already is!

[Freckleface]

Recently spent a month over in WA, first time in Oz. I have family out there. Basically I was really looking forward to going as I've always wanted to experience Australia.

 

Ive noticed that there are so many people emigrating there without even ever having been there before. So if your one of them it's probably healthy to get some mixed opinions on the place. Anyway here's my thoughts.

 

First of all, good things. Weather is marvellous. I can see how bringing kids up here would appeal to people, much more outdoorsy life, the beach after school/work is a winner. They have parrots, we have pigeons. Also, where we where there was a brilliant social circle, people really went out of there way to bother with one another, this is probably due to a lack of family, therefore substituting family with friends.

 

However, if took me about 5 days before I starting thinking 'surely this isn't it'.

 

I must admit, after spending a month there, I just don't get it. Australia is by far the overated place

I have ever been.

 

There is a distinct lack of culture, the food is terrible (fish and chips anyone?) extremely expensive, borderline backwards and I genuinely felt like I had stepped into a time machine and came out in 1962.

 

I really wanted to love Australia, it was a dream to go there. But I have never been so underwhelmed in my life. There is very little to do there. I'm glad I went because I actually find myself appreciating the UK a lot more.

 

I would love to visit again, but the East Coast where I've heard there is much more culture and things to see/do.

 

It's interesting browsing the forum because you very rarely see or hear anything negative about the place in everyday life, but there is a good mix of opinion on this forum.

 

 

 

I wouldn't bother visiting again if I was you. I doubt the east coast would suit you either and we wouldn't want you being any more underwhelmed than you already are.

[Marisawright]

What do you call an un-Australian lifestyle flag? To me the lifestyle that Maryrose leads just demonstrates that Aus provides just about any lifestyle you want.

 

I think you're assuming un-Australian is somehow negative, I don't think that's what Flag meant - just that inner-city Sydney living is (in my experience) not the same as living elsewhere in Australia.

[Marisawright]

I don't agree with you about the lack of culture and things to do, either. As I've said before, I admit to being somewhat of a cultural Philistine, and living in Sydney, that is unforgiveable.

 

Sydney (and Australia) is NOT being "damned" for lack of culture. It's not a criticism, it's just an inevitable consequence of being a young, vast country with a small population.

 

That means that of course, we don't have as many museums and art galleries of Old Masters - we don't have the history. Yes, you can learn about history on the internet or at Uni but that's not the same as experiencing it where it happened. And the whole point of moving back to the UK is that study trips to Europe are horribly expensive from Australia, I certainly can't afford them.

 

It also means we don't have as many performers. I've never been a full-time performer but I know many musicians and dancers who came to Australia and had to head back to Europe, because the sheer size of the country and small population mean they can't get enough gigs to keep them in full-time employment. It's too expensive to go flying all over Oz to pick up jobs - unlike the UK and Europe where they can travel easily. The same applies to touring companies - it's much cheaper and therefore more profitable for them to travel around Asia or Europe or the UK where venues are much closer together, than to transport all their gear across vast distances. If the performers can't afford to live here and the companies can't afford to tour, then obviously there's going to be less of them. It's just a fact of life in Australia, and maybe it's something that should occur to people before they arrive - but usually it doesn't!

 

The big thing you're missing about "culture" is that most people who are into "culture" are NOT fans of everything - they have a particular passion for drama or dance or art or music or films, etc., and they're not interchangeable. So I'm not impressed by that list of plays, because I'm not into drama. For my oh, if there aren't many museums around, all the film festivals in the world don't make up for that. And suggesting that if there's only one ballet company, I can make up for it by learning a language, doesn't work.

 

I don't think anyone should have to force themselves to "make the best" of where they are, IF they have a choice. You like going to the pub. What if you moved from Surry Hills to a suburb where there is only one pub, 30 minutes' drive away, and it's a bikers' pub with a limited choice of beers? Would you stay there and say, "oh well, I'll have to make the best of it", or would you move back to Surry Hills? That's all we're talking about - people deciding their new location doesn't have the amenities they need, and moving to somewhere that does. And they're perfectly entitled to explain WHY they are doing that.

[Petals]

I have always thought Australia had one of the oldest cultures in the world. Aboriginal culture is a very ancient culture. Depends what you call culture, going to rock concerts, seeing old buildings a few old in comparison to the rock paintings etc etc. Culture seems to mean so many different things to different people.

[Marisawright]

I have always thought Australia had one of the oldest cultures in the world. Aboriginal culture is a very ancient culture. Depends what you call culture, going to rock concerts, seeing old buildings a few old in comparison to the rock paintings etc etc. Culture seems to mean so many different things to different people.

 

That's exactly my point. It's a word with several meanings. When people here talk about a lack of "culture" in Australia, they're not saying people are ockers, or that there is no indigenous culture. They're saying that the cultural activities they enjoy are less available. And as I said to MaryRose, usually if people are into the arts, they are passionate about one particular branch of the arts - rock concerts, architecture, ballet, films, drama etc. SO while it's easy to make long lists of "cultural activities" in any Australian city, in reality most people will be interested in only a few of them. And while it's true most British cities couldn't offer more, in the UK it's very easy to take a weekend in London or Paris or Berlin or Rome or even New York to catch a major exhibition or a big star in performance. And you could take a lot of those weekends every year for the price of one holiday in Europe from Australia.

[MARYROSE02]

I think you're assuming un-Australian is somehow negative, I don't think that's what Flag meant - just that inner-city Sydney living is (in my experience) not the same as living elsewhere in Australia.

I didn't move to Surry Hills to follow a particular kind of lifestyle. I just wanted to live close to work. My lifestyle in my Hants village was much the same as here. I still walked to the pub, paper shop, cafe most days. I spent most of my life outside of work within walking distance of my home. The only thing I did there which I don't do here is cycle because I'm scared of cycling in Sydney traffic, but if I lived in London I would not cycle there either. Basically, I take my lifestyle wherever I happen to be living.

[Marisawright]

I didn't move to Surry Hills to follow a particular kind of lifestyle. I just wanted to live close to work. My lifestyle in my Hants village was much the same as here. I still walked to the pub, paper shop, cafe most days. I spent most of my life outside of work within walking distance of my home. The only thing I did there which I don't do here is cycle because I'm scared of cycling in Sydney traffic, but if I lived in London I would not cycle there either. Basically, I take my lifestyle wherever I happen to be living.

 

I think the point Flag was making is that because you're in Surry Hills, you have been able to take your UK lifestyle to Australia. For many Australians living in suburban Australia, there is no pub, cafe or even paper shop within walking distance - you have to get in your car - so it's a different experience. And for many families arriving today, living in those inner city suburbs isn't affordable - you were lucky to get into Surry Hills when you did, I could kick myself for not buying something there years ago when I had the chance.

[MARYROSE02]

I suppose you admire Australians for creating 'culture' so far away from the centres of "culture", assuming that it is valid to use Europe as THE yardstick by which we judge everything to do with "culture?" I was guilty of that myself at UNSW choosing European over Australian history as if nothing relevant has happened since 1788.

 

Then again, Australians themselves used to believe they had to move to Britain if they wanted to be involved in anything relevant. Part of the "cultural cringe" perhaps and thinking that anything Australian is second rate. Again something that I have been guilty of in the past. eg thinking that Aussie rock music is inferior to British.

 

I guess that over the years I've been here, I've 'become' more and more appreciative of what Australia has to offer.

[MARYROSE02]

Sydney (and Australia) is NOT being "damned" for lack of culture. It's not a criticism, it's just an inevitable consequence of being a young, vast country with a small population.

 

That means that of course, we don't have as many museums and art galleries of Old Masters - we don't have the history. Yes, you can learn about history on the internet or at Uni but that's not the same as experiencing it where it happened. And the whole point of moving back to the UK is that study trips to Europe are horribly expensive from Australia, I certainly can't afford them.

 

It also means we don't have as many performers. I've never been a full-time performer but I know many musicians and dancers who came to Australia and had to head back to Europe, because the sheer size of the country and small population mean they can't get enough gigs to keep them in full-time employment. It's too expensive to go flying all over Oz to pick up jobs - unlike the UK and Europe where they can travel easily. The same applies to touring companies - it's much cheaper and therefore more profitable for them to travel around Asia or Europe or the UK where venues are much closer together, than to transport all their gear across vast distances. If the performers can't afford to live here and the companies can't afford to tour, then obviously there's going to be less of them. It's just a fact of life in Australia, and maybe it's something that should occur to people before they arrive - but usually it doesn't!

 

The big thing you're missing about "culture" is that most people who are into "culture" are NOT fans of everything - they have a particular passion for drama or dance or art or music or films, etc., and they're not interchangeable. So I'm not impressed by that list of plays, because I'm not into drama. For my oh, if there aren't many museums around, all the film festivals in the world don't make up for that. And suggesting that if there's only one ballet company, I can make up for it by learning a language, doesn't work.

 

I don't think anyone should have to force themselves to "make the best" of where they are, IF they have a choice. You like going to the pub. What if you moved from Surry Hills to a suburb where there is only one pub, 30 minutes' drive away, and it's a bikers' pub with a limited choice of beers? Would you stay there and say, "oh well, I'll have to make the best of it", or would you move back to Surry Hills? That's all we're talking about - people deciding their new location doesn't have the amenities they need, and moving to somewhere that does. And they're perfectly entitled to explain WHY they are doing that.

 

I think that 'the suburb with only one pub' is actually how many migrants see Australia, whether they are in an outback town or a huge city like Sydney. If I moved to that 'one pub suburb' I like to think I could adapt, not move back to Surry Hills. Sure, I'm attached to Surry Hills, and I'm older (if not wiser) and I don't want to move, but if the opportunity came up to move to, say, Walgett or Wilcannnia, I could do that and enjoy the experience.

 

Anyway, I Googled 'Cultural Cringe' and I understood immediately!

 

Cultural cringe, in cultural studies and social anthropology, is an internalized inferiority complex that causes people in a country to dismiss their own culture as inferior to the cultures of other countries. It is closely related, although not identical, to the concept of colonial mentality, and is often linked with the display of anti-intellectual attitudes towards thinkers, scientists and artists who originate from a colonial or post-colonial nation. It can also be manifested in individuals in the form of cultural alienation. In many cases, cultural cringe, or an equivalent term, is an accusation made by a fellow-national, who decries the inferiority complex and asserts the merits of the national culture. [h=2]Contents[/h]

 

 

 

• 1 Origin

• 2 Connection with cultural alienation

• 3 By country
  • 3.1 Australia

  • 3.2 Canada

  • 3.3 Mexico

  • 3.4 New Zealand

  • 3.5 Scotland

   

   

  [*]4 See also

  [*]5 References

  [*]6 Further reading

   

 

 

[h=2]Origin[/h] In 1894, Henry Lawson wrote in his preface to his Short Stories in Prose and Verse:

 

The Australian writer, until he gets a "London hearing," is only accepted as an imitator of some recognized English or American author; and, as soon as he shows signs of coming to the front, he is labelled "The Australian Southey," "The Australian Burns," or "The Australian Bret Harte," and lately, "The Australian Kipling." Thus no matter how original he may be, he is branded, at the very start, as a plagiarist, and by his own country, which thinks, no doubt, that it is paying him a compliment and encouraging him, while it is really doing him a cruel and an almost irreparable injury. But mark! As soon as the Southern writer goes "home" and gets some recognition in England, he is "So-and-So, the well-known Australian author whose work has attracted so much attention in London lately"; and we first hear of him by cable, even though he might have been writing at his best for ten years in Australia.

^[1]

Lawson clearly writes here from bitter experience, evidence enough that the Gestalt of psychological servitude, cultural anxiety and entrenched peer-cruelty which was later to become labelled "the cultural cringe" was pervasive in nineteenth-century Australia, and is thus a fundamental element of Australian self-identity.

The term "cultural cringe" was coined in Australia after the Second World War by the Melbourne critic and social commentator A. A. Phillips, and defined in an influential and highly controversial 1950 essay of the same name.^[2] It explored ingrained feelings of inferiority that local intellectuals struggled against, and which were most clearly pronounced in the Australian theatre, music, art and letters. The implications of these insights potentially applied to all former colonial nations, and the essay is now recognised as a cornerstone in the development of post-colonial theory in Australia. In essence, Phillips pointed out that the public widely assumed that anything produced by local dramatists, actors, musicians, artists and writers was necessarily deficient when compared against the works of their British and European counterparts. In the words of the poet Chris Wallace-Crabbe (quoted by Peter Conrad^[3]), Australia was being made to rhyme with failure. The only ways local arts professionals could build themselves up in public esteem was either to follow overseas fashions, or, more often, to spend a period of time working in Britain.^[4][5]

As Lawson continued in his 1894 preface: "The same paltry spirit tried to dispose of the greatest of modern short-story writers as 'The Californian Dickens', but America wasn't built that way – neither was Bret Harte!" The cultural cringe of Australians and the cultural swagger of Americans reflects deep contrasts between the American and the Australian experiences of extricating themselves from English apron-strings. Dealing specifically with Australia, Phillips pointed out that sport has been the only field in which ordinary people accepted that their nation was able to perform and excel internationally. Indeed, while they prided themselves on the qualities of locally produced athletes and sportsmen, whom they invariably considered first rate, Australians behaved as if in more intellectual pursuits the nation generated only second-rate talent. Some commentators believe that cultural cringe contribute to the perceived anti-intellectualism

[Marisawright]

I think that 'the suburb with only one pub' is actually how many migrants see Australia, whether they are in an outback town or a huge city like Sydney. If I moved to that 'one pub suburb' I like to think I could adapt, not move back to Surry Hills.

 

...but the question you keep avoiding is, why SHOULD you adapt? You live in Surry Hills because it suits you. If you moved somewhere else, why would you feel so obligated to stay there and adapt? Don't you have free will, so you can CHOOSE whether to go back to what you prefer, or stay and adapt?

 

We are about to head over to the UK. We don't know if we'll like it, but we've made up our minds that to make financial sense, we need to stay for at least two years come what may - and if that means adapting, we will adapt. BUT in two years we'll sit back, weigh up all the positives and negatives and ask ourselves "which works best for us, Australia or the UK?". If the answer is Australia, then we're not going to say "oh, we've made our bed, we must lie on it, we just have to give up the lifestyle we prefer and learn to love something different". We'll just come back.

 

You seem determined that people aren't allowed to move cities or countries to find the lifestyle they prefer - they have to live the lifestyle that Australia offers whether it suits them or not. I don't get why that is.

 

Oh, and by the way I live in Ashbury - which is an inner west area - which has no pub within walking distance and until last year, it had no cafes in walking distance either. I can think of many other suburbs in Sydney where the same applies.

[Marisawright]

I suppose you admire Australians for creating 'culture' so far away from the centres of "culture"

 

I can see you didn't read my post properly. You can't seem to get your head around the fact that I'm not criticising, it's just the law of supply and demand. There are fewer people in Australia which means a smaller audience which means it can't support such a big community of creative people. That's just fact.

[Guest]

So now only living in new cheap suburbs is living an Australian lifestyle? But long established inner suburbs aren't?

[Marisawright]

So now only living in new cheap suburbs is living an Australian lifestyle? But long established inner suburbs aren't?

 

No, not at all. It was Flag who raised the point so I should leave it to Flag to respond, but the discussion was about new migrant families coming to Australia now. They usually end up in the cheaper outer suburbs because the inner suburbs are so expensive, so that's the Australian lifestyle they're going to experience.

[Guest]

No, not at all. It was Flag who raised the point so I should leave it to Flag to respond, but the discussion was about new migrant families coming to Australia now. They usually end up in the cheaper outer suburbs because the inner suburbs are so expensive, so that's the Australian lifestyle they're going to experience.

 

Yeah I guess it depends where they come from. I personally would rather rent than live out in the sticks with no infrastructure. I've never lived more than 5k out of Brisbane CBD so can't really imagine being another 30k out.