Travel caps and Human Rights

[Loopylu]

20 minutes ago, Parley said:

Our human rights don't count Peach apparently.

The government correctly prioritised the Human Rights of everyone here to keep them protected from Covid.

 

So your human rights are more important than your neighbour's human rights or that of other Australians who happen to be stuck overseas?  My view is that the Government could if it put its mind to it look after all of its citizens - those already in Australia and those looking to return. It is very sad that it has taken an application to the UNHCR to get this Government to pull its finger out.

[Loopylu]

18 minutes ago, Parley said:

UK 127,000 deaths vs Australia 910 deaths

Sort of speaks for itself.

Yawn.

 As you should know if you read international (not Aussie propaganda news) these are potentially inaccurate figures as the UK figures count people who died within 28 days of having been diagnosed with Covid.  It is not necessarily the cause of death.  However, keep drinking the Murdoch Koolaid and I hope you look forward to not being able to leave Australia until 2024 (unless of course you are rich and famous).  

[Parley]

8 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

Yawn.

 As you should know if you read international (not Aussie propaganda news) these are potentially inaccurate figures as the UK figures count people who died within 28 days of having been diagnosed with Covid.  It is not necessarily the cause of death.  However, keep drinking the Murdoch Koolaid and I hope you look forward to not being able to leave Australia until 2024 (unless of course you are rich and famous).  

It is from Worldometers not Murdoch.

[Wanderer Returns]

5 hours ago, rtritudr said:

It's easy to put people into hotels.  It's not so easy to make sure that the virus doesn't leak out of those hotels.

The outbreak we just had in Queensland, which effectively ruined everyone's Easter, started with a doctor in the P A Hospital who hadn't been vaccinated. It had nothing to do with hotel quarantine. Good job we do have the quarantine measures in place because the vaccine role out has been a joke.

[Parley]

12 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

So your human rights are more important than your neighbour's human rights or that of other Australians who happen to be stuck overseas?  My view is that the Government could if it put its mind to it look after all of its citizens - those already in Australia and those looking to return. It is very sad that it has taken an application to the UNHCR to get this Government to pull its finger out.

At the start of Covid, the government urged every overseas Australian to come home and most did.

Many charter flights were put on at that time from places like South America and other remote places.

People who chose not to come home should not complain now when they refused to return before.

[Tulip1]

19 minutes ago, Peach said:

and we open the boarders and tens of thousands die, that is just hard cheese for them?

If everyone allowed in had been vaccinated, had a negative test prior to boarding and a negative test on arrival then the chances of them having it is very slim.  Why do you think on those very slim chances you’d suddenly have tens of thousands dying? I expect at most you’d have a few dying. Any death is a death too many but this isn’t going away and at some point the world will have to accept that it is on a long list of things that can cause illness/death (this acceptance will be more difficult for places like Australia which is understandable)  I would imagine with a highly efficient vaccine and negative tests it would probably be in line with the historical flu virus carriers that have entered the country for years and years and passed it on a others which has resulted in a tiny amount of deaths.  That won’t have been recorded anywhere because things like flu are an accepted virus to us and although it spreads and can kill, it’s just one of many unfortunates.  For example, in the U.K. on average 7000 a year die of flu. Some years it’s higher. Without sounding harsh, no one really batters an eyelid over that as it always happens, always has and it’s usually the very old/unwell people. Sad but true. In years to come Covid will be similar. It will simply be another nasty out there that people sometimes get, most are a bit poorly for a week or two and are ok afterwards, sadly some die. Chris Whitty here said that the chances of eradicating Covid is as near to zero as makes no difference.  He said anyone who understands diseases/viruses like this will know that’s the case. Australia’s medical/scientific profession will know that just as he does.  It is something that needs to be very controlled and managed but it’s not going away. I think countries will have to do all they can to minimise and manage risk with vaccine/testing but if they want to attempt eradication then their borders will have to close permanently and that just won’t happen. 

[Parley]

3 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

If everyone allowed in had been vaccinated, had a negative test prior to boarding and a negative test on arrival then the chances of them having it is very slim.  Why do you think on those very slim chances you’d suddenly have tens of thousands dying? I expect at most you’d have a few dying. Any death is a death too many but this isn’t going away and at some point the world will have to accept that it is on a long list of things that can cause illness/death (this acceptance will be more difficult for places like Australia which is understandable)  I would imagine with a highly efficient vaccine and negative tests it would probably be in line with the historical flu virus carriers that have entered the country for years and years and passed it on a others which has resulted in a tiny amount of deaths.  That won’t have been recorded anywhere because things like flu are an accepted virus to us and although it spreads and can kill, it’s just one of many unfortunates.  For example, in the U.K. on average 7000 a year die of flu. Some years it’s higher. Without sounding harsh, no one really batters an eyelid over that as it always happens, always has and it’s usually the very old/unwell people. Sad but true. In years to come Covid will be similar. It will simply be another nasty out there that people sometimes get, most are a bit poorly for a week or two and are ok afterwards, sadly some die. Chris Whitty here said that the chances of eradicating Covid is as near to zero as makes no difference.  He said anyone who understands diseases/viruses like this will know that’s the case. Australia’s medical/scientific profession will know that just as he does.  It is something that needs to be very controlled and managed but it’s not going away. I think countries will have to do all they can to minimise and manage risk with vaccine/testing but if they want to attempt eradication then their borders will have to close permanently and that just won’t happen. 

Tulip, when everyone has been vaccinated, it will open up as you suggest.

But it is too dangerous currently. 7000 flu deaths is a long way from the 127000 Covid deaths in the UK. It is a tragedy.

[Quoll]

17 hours ago, Loopylu said:

One can hope that this pronouncement shames the Government into behaving properly. I am registered with DFAT as I am technically an Australian who may get bumped off my flight in May due to the caps.  In the last two days I have had 2 emails advising of 6 Qantas repatriation flights from London being laid on in May so perhaps this is a response to the UN request....

Have you actually been bumped off a flight or are you just launching a Blame the Government for everything "just in case" attack?

IIRC it was your choice to leave the country and you did so, knowing the possible repercussions - I am sure you understood at the time that it was a risk but you decided it was a risk you had to take.  I understand that airlines are more likely to prioritise those who are on the return half of a ticket (someone on another board in the same situation as you was assured of that and has returned unscathed) so chances are you will probably be just fine or will the Government's decision to force you into quarantine result in another "I am a Human Rights Advocate" diatribe?   

 

[Tulip1]

8 minutes ago, Parley said:

Tulip, when everyone has been vaccinated, it will open up as you suggest.

But it is too dangerous currently. 7000 flu deaths is a long way from the 127000 Covid deaths in the UK. It is a tragedy.

I completely agree, definitely too early.  I think you all need to have had the vaccine and all travellers all need to have had it too.  I also think the travellers country of origin needs to have an acceptable rate too.  I read the other day India had 200,000 new cases in one day.  Such a sad figure but in the context of this discussion, travellers into Australia (or any country) from a country with such numbers wouldn’t be ok. I think some sort of traffic light system will need to be in place for sometime.  When I said about the 7000 flu deaths I was trying to say that in the future smaller amounts of death from Covid will be an accepted thing. Not a nice thing but people dying from disease/respiratory problems etc is something we have to accept, Covid will unfortunately just be added to that list.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Tulip1

[Marisawright]

@Tulip1, few Australians would argue with you.  The Australian government promised that everyone who wanted it would be vaccinated by October this year, so we were all perfectly happy with the idea that the borders would start opening at that point.  

They have made a complete pig's ear of the vaccination rollout, and we are all still reeling from the realisation that it may not be completed till some time in 2022.  Even the elderly and vulnerable may not get both jabs until the end of 2021. 

We're all still coming to terms with it, and coping with our disappointment.  I think the government is still trying to work it out, too.  Do they say, "hey, we can't put it off any longer, we'll have to open up the borders a bit now.  Sure, it might be your granny that dies, but take comfort from the fact that it'll only be a a few thousand of you."   I don't think any of them have the stomach for that, frankly, because they know it would lose them the next election - but I agree it's tough to know how to move forward.

I do agree that Covid is here to stay.  But there is a difference between the risk in the current, unvaccinated situation where about 10% of people over 70 will die of it, and the risk once people are vaccinated (when it becomes just like the flu).

Edited April 17, 2021 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

41 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

I hope you look forward to not being able to leave Australia until 2024 (unless of course you are rich and famous).  

The 2024 figure came from a speculative report by Deloittes, not from the government.  

And I do think the needs of 25 million people has to be more important than the needs of 40,000.  

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Marisawright

[Tulip1]

5 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

@Tulip1, few Australians would argue with you.  The Australian government promised that everyone who wanted it would be vaccinated by October this year, so we were all perfectly happy with the idea that the borders would open at that point.  

They have made a complete pig's ear of the vaccination rollout, and we are all still reeling from the realisation that it may not be completed till some time in 2022.  Even the elderly and vulnerable may not get both jabs until the end of 2021. 

We're all still coming to terms with it, and coping with our disappointment.  I think the government is still trying to work it out, too.  Do they say, "hey, we can't put it off any longer, we'll have to open up the borders a bit now.  Sure, it might be your granny that dies, but take comfort from the fact that it'll only be a a few thousand of you."   I don't think any of them have the stomach for that, frankly, but I agree it's tough to know how to move forward.

I do agree that Covid is here to stay.  But there is a difference between the risk in the current, unvaccinated situation where about 10% of people over 70 will die of it, and the risk once people are vaccinated (when it becomes just like the flu).

I completely agree. You need to have had your jabs too.

[Loopylu]

24 minutes ago, Parley said:

At the start of Covid, the government urged every overseas Australian to come home and most did.

Many charter flights were put on at that time from places like South America and other remote places.

People who chose not to come home should not complain now when they refused to return before.

People cannot just walk out of jobs and jump on a plane, travel with a newborn that does not have an Australian passport, travel in the last weeks' of pregnancy.  People had leases, owned homes and it takes time (as everyone on here who has relocated to Australia should know) to tidy up affairs before leaving. There are numerous reasons why people why people could not return at that early stage. 

This again is another example of a snap judgment based on the Government's simplistic view of the lives of ordinary people.  For example, you walk out of your job without giving notice and with nothing to go to in Australia. You run the risk of being sued by the employer for breach of notice conditions, they give you a rubbish or no reference, you can't find a job in Australia. You have no home to go to and no one will lease you a home because you have no job.  You are then expected to survive on the pittance that the Government gives  so-called "dole bludgers" and be looked down on by the rest of Australian society that ranks people by material success rather than individual worth. 

[Loopylu]

15 minutes ago, Quoll said:

Have you actually been bumped off a flight or are you just launching a Blame the Government for everything "just in case" attack?

IIRC it was your choice to leave the country and you did so, knowing the possible repercussions - I am sure you understood at the time that it was a risk but you decided it was a risk you had to take.  I understand that airlines are more likely to prioritise those who are on the return half of a ticket (someone on another board in the same situation as you was assured of that and has returned unscathed) so chances are you will probably be just fine or will the Government's decision to force you into quarantine result in another "I am a Human Rights Advocate" diatribe?   

 

So, there is now a new rule on PIO - you are not allowed to criticise the Australian Government, at all. Yes, it was my choice but, just because I made it, it does not mean I forfeit my right to an opinion on the whole Australian quarantine and caps debacle.  Yes, I have heard that I am likely to be prioritised having a return half and I have also heard that SIngapore (unlike Qatar) try not to overbook so that they can meet the caps.  

I am prepared to undertake the quarantine and I don't believe I have complained about doing that, anywhere.  However, the fact that the government has failed to provide sufficient quarantine spaces for all Australian citizens who want to return is something that is wrong in my opinion (which according to you, I have forfeited the right to have!). 

Yet again, you and others are ganging up to make spiteful comments.  I recall there was a warning recently about this sort of behaviour but it obviously fell on deaf ears because, like typical Aussie bullies, you can't help yourselves.

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Loopylu said:

The difference is that the UK has a Human Rights Act and you can go to court to challenge human rights abuses and usually win. In Australia without any human rights legislation, all you have is the Australian Human Rights Commission who can tell the government that "it has been a very naughty boy" but cannot compel it to comply with its international human rights obligations. 

There has already been considerable uproar in the UK about the refugee proposals and at least the government is consulting on the measures and not arbitrarily imposing them.  

Sorry if I appear abrasive, but human rights is a fundamentally important issue and having provided pro bono advice to genuine refugees it is a matter close to my heart.

 

I understand that, I agree it is a very important issue and I appreciate you're having a very difficult time at the moment, but a measured approach might be more conducive to changing people's views.

Many of your posts read as quite aggressive and confrontational. Given your professional background (and my assumption of your skills in debate and persuasion) I wonder if maybe current events are impacting the tone and language in your recent posts. Telling people they are selfish, heartless or nasty (my words not yours) won't lead to constructive debate over these important issues.

[Loopylu]

51 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I understand that, I agree it is a very important issue and I appreciate you're having a very difficult time at the moment, but a measured approach might be more conducive to changing people's views.

Many of your posts read as quite aggressive and confrontational. Given your professional background (and my assumption of your skills in debate and persuasion) I wonder if maybe current events are impacting the tone and language in your recent posts. Telling people they are selfish, heartless or nasty (my words not yours) won't lead to constructive debate over these important issues.

I will take your advice on board. Unfortunately I very much doubt that a change in tone would make one iota of difference when it comes to the attitudes and views of some posters on here. Unless you sing from the same hymn sheet you are persona non gratis. 

[MacGyver]

20 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

I will take your advice on board. Unfortunately I very much doubt that a change in tone would make one iota of difference when it comes to the attitudes and views of some posters on here. Unless you sing from the same hymn sheet you are persona non gratis. 

I hope you make it back to your family in Australia soon, it must be incredibly difficult being so far apart especially with all the uncertainty at the moment.

[Loopylu]

51 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I hope you make it back to your family in Australia soon, it must be incredibly difficult being so far apart especially with all the uncertainty at the moment.

That is very kind of you.  At the moment I feel fairly ambivalent about being bumped off my flight as, deep down, I would like to stay longer and enjoy a British summer. However, I know I should try to get back sooner rather than later with my husband starting dialysis soon.  My parents are quite insistent that I should be there to support him and don't want to be the reason why I am not there.

With modern technology I probably talk more now to my 20 year old lads than when I lived in the same house.  There, I always got the feeling that I was interrupting their gaming/sleeping whenever I ventured into their rooms!  As they are quasi-nocturnal uni students I am now in the right time zone to interact with them when they are at their best...   My 16 year old daughter also lives on her Iphone so we talk daily and she is now probably sharing stuff with me that I probably would prefer not to know when I can do nothing about it (like her friends introducing her to a potential boyfriend, what she is planning to get done at the hairdressers with her KFC pay). 

[Parley]

14 hours ago, Loopylu said:

So, there is now a new rule on PIO - you are not allowed to criticise the Australian Government, at all.

Yes. Political threads were banned a while back.

I'm surprised your threads have been allowed to stay on the forum.

Lately if I've posted anything on covid it gets deleted straight away. Even if it it news about a woman's recent death from a covid vaccine.

Some of the rules are hard to understand but they are there.

[rtritudr]

17 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

The outbreak we just had in Queensland, which effectively ruined everyone's Easter, started with a doctor in the P A Hospital who hadn't been vaccinated. It had nothing to do with hotel quarantine. Good job we do have the quarantine measures in place because the vaccine role out has been a joke.

Queensland is unique in that they have a policy in place where every positive case is put into a hospital, regardless of symptoms or severity.  This obviously increases the risk of transmission within hospitals.

However, even if you do this there is still a risk of transmission in quarantine hotels prior to the patients being diagnosed and transferred to a hospital.  The Brisbane Hotel Grand Chancellor is a case in point.

[rtritudr]

17 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

If everyone allowed in had been vaccinated, had a negative test prior to boarding and a negative test on arrival then the chances of them having it is very slim.  Why do you think on those very slim chances you’d suddenly have tens of thousands dying?

Because until Australia is fully vaccinated, it takes just a single person to start an outbreak.  Remember that the Melbourne second wave started with a single case, as shown by genomic data.  Most of Australia's death toll was caused by that one single outbreak.

Edited April 18, 2021 by rtritudr

[Ken]

41 minutes ago, rtritudr said:

Because until Australia is fully vaccinated, it takes just a single person to start an outbreak.  Remember that the Melbourne second wave started with a single case, as shown by genomic data.  Most of Australia's death toll was caused by that one single outbreak.

Even once Australia is fully vaccinated it will just take a single person to start an outbreak. 

None of the vaccine are 100% effective and even where they are highly effective that effectiveness is expected to decline over time. The vaccines are a great boon as they appear to prevent the worst symptoms and will significantly reduce the number of deaths, but they're not going to prevent outbreaks from happening. It will take decades to eradicate the disease from the planet.

[Toots]

5 minutes ago, Ken said:

Even once Australia is fully vaccinated it will just take a single person to start an outbreak. 

None of the vaccine are 100% effective and even where they are highly effective that effectiveness is expected to decline over time. The vaccines are a great boon as they appear to prevent the worst symptoms and will significantly reduce the number of deaths, but they're not going to prevent outbreaks from happening. It will take decades to eradicate the disease from the planet.

Agree with you.  It will hang around like flu.  As with flu, we will probably have a jab every year to keep it at bay but I doubt it will ever be eradicated completely.

[Parley]

40 minutes ago, Ken said:

Even once Australia is fully vaccinated it will just take a single person to start an outbreak. 

None of the vaccine are 100% effective and even where they are highly effective that effectiveness is expected to decline over time. The vaccines are a great boon as they appear to prevent the worst symptoms and will significantly reduce the number of deaths, but they're not going to prevent outbreaks from happening. It will take decades to eradicate the disease from the planet.

Maybe not 100% but most claimed over 90% effective which is a lot greater than the flu vaccines.

Hopefully in the next few years they will be able to incorporate it into the flu jab, so we only need 1 injection.

[Ken]

37 minutes ago, Toots said:

Agree with you.  It will hang around like flu.  As with flu, we will probably have a jab every year to keep it at bay but I doubt it will ever be eradicated completely.

You may be right. Despite a UN commitment in 1988, Polio has still not been completely eradicated.