Travel caps and Human Rights

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

Even once Australia is fully vaccinated it will just take a single person to start an outbreak. 

Yes, but it won't be able to spread as far, and is far less likely to cause severe illness and death.   I think that's the best we can hope for.

[FirstWorldProblems]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Yes, but it won't be able to spread as far, and is far less likely to cause severe illness and death.   I think that's the best we can hope for.

Yes indeed.  I do think we have to accept that this is looking like something the world will have to live with. And living with it means not trying to achieve zero cases, but minimising impact - predominantly this being not overwhelming hospitals with very sick people so that society can continue to function. 
 

Callous as it may sound, deaths is of secondary importance.  No society suggests we close all borders for flu, we accept annual flu deaths as being normal.   Terrible for the individuals affected, but we’ve all accepted that at a macro population level. 
 

it will be the same with this. 

[FirstWorldProblems]

22 hours ago, Loopylu said:

So your human rights are more important than your neighbour's human rights or that of other Australians who happen to be stuck overseas?  My view is that the Government could if it put its mind to it look after all of its citizens - those already in Australia and those looking to return. It is very sad that it has taken an application to the UNHCR to get this Government to pull its finger out.

I’m going to be Devil’s advocate....and ask why your outrage extends only to Australian citizens returning home?

You’ve called out those already in Australia as caring only for their own circumstances (“I’m alright Jack”), but aren’t you doing the same?

What about the families of people living in Australia?  Grandparents for whom the clock is ticking and might not get a chance to see the kiddies if visitors can’t enter soon?

Or people who aren’t elderly but who desperately want to spend time in the presence of those they love dearly?

Note, I’m not seriously advocating a free for all today, I’m just posing the question - Where should the line be drawn?  Why does it stop with repatriating citizens?

All that said, a bloody roadmap would be nice so people can have a light at the end of the tunnel.  

 

[Marisawright]

20 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Yes indeed.  I do think we have to accept that this is looking like something the world will have to live with. And living with it means not trying to achieve zero cases, but minimising impact - predominantly this being not overwhelming hospitals with very sick people so that society can continue to function. 

I think we agree, but it's a matter of degree.

At one extreme, people say, let's just accept that about 1% of the world will die, and around 10% to 20% will end up with life-limiting illness, or lifelong neurological or physical problems. Tough if it's your granny that dies or your teenage daughter that develops encephalitis, but we have to keep society functioning.  I can see how that view is becoming accepted in countries where you've become so used to huge numbers of people dying, that having a small number dying seems like a reprieve.

At the other extreme is the situation we've got ourselves into in Australia, where even the 800 or so deaths we had in Victoria are still regarded as a national tragedy.  It's very, very hard to say, "OK, let''s just let a few people suffer now" when we've invested so much to get this far.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Marisawright

[Tulip1]

4 hours ago, Ken said:

You may be right. Despite a UN commitment in 1988, Polio has still not been completely eradicated.

Whitty says we have only been able to manage complete eradication of one thing which is smallpox and that took a very long time and an exceptional vaccine.  He said the Covid vaccine is very good but it’s not 100% and therefore eradication isn’t possible. 

[Loopylu]

25 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I’m going to be Devil’s advocate....and ask why your outrage extends only to Australian citizens returning home?

You’ve called out those already in Australia as caring only for their own circumstances (“I’m alright Jack”), but aren’t you doing the same?

What about the families of people living in Australia?  Grandparents for whom the clock is ticking and might not get a chance to see the kiddies if visitors can’t enter soon?

Or people who aren’t elderly but who desperately want to spend time in the presence of those they love dearly?

Note, I’m not seriously advocating a free for all today, I’m just posing the question - Where should the line be drawn?  Why does it stop with repatriating citizens?

All that said, a bloody roadmap would be nice so people can have a light at the end of the tunnel.  

 

My original post is about the UN case which relates specifically to the right of Australians to return to their country of citizenship, so why would I muddy the waters so yo speak with the issues you have raised? 

However, I agree it is very sad that families have been prevented from reuniting indefinitely as there is no roadmap. We were personally affected by this. My parents were due to come and stay with us for a month in 2020 as they try to do every year but were prevented by border closures. Now my Dad is terminally ill and so he will most likely not see my children (2x20 and 16) again. They could not travel with me to the UK due to work and education commitments and not knowing if they would be able to get back due to caps. 

Of course, the government is also in breach of IHR law by not letting people leave Australia, but as I said that is a separate issue. 

if there were more extensive quarantine facilities. then people with family overseas could travel to see family on the proviso they quarantined on return.

I read SBS regularly and there are some heartbreaking stories relating to the separation of families due to border closures. 

[Tulip1]

6 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

My original post is about the UN case which relates specifically to the right of Australians to return to their country of citizenship, so why would I muddy the waters so yo speak with the issues you have raised? 

However, I agree it is very sad that families have been prevented from reuniting indefinitely as there is no roadmap. We were personally affected by this. My parents were due to come and stay with us for a month in 2020 as they try to do every year but were prevented by border closures. Now my Dad is terminally ill and so he will most likely not see my children (2x20 and 16) again. They could not travel with me to the UK due to work and education commitments and not knowing if they would be able to get back due to caps. 

Of course, the government is also in breach of IHR law by not letting people leave Australia, but as I said that is a separate issue. 

if there were more extensive quarantine facilities. then people with family overseas could travel to see family on the proviso they quarantined on return.

I read SBS regularly and there are some heartbreaking stories relating to the separation of families due to border closures. 

Your continued comments on here over the last days are really quite sad I think because surely you should be spending this precious time with your father which as you say, you’ll not see again. If I was you, I’d not be getting stressed out, outraged and moaning about things you can’t change on a forum.  Surely there’s time once you to return to Australia to pick up the hate campaign but for now just enjoy your final days with your parents. Many won’t see their parents ever again, sadly a horrific pandemic has hit the world and safety measures have had to be taken.  Be thankful you’ve been able to spend quality time with them and lighten up. 

[Loopylu]

11 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

Your continued comments on here over the last days are really quite sad I think because surely you should be spending this precious time with your father which as you say, you’ll not see again. If I was you, I’d not be getting stressed out, outraged and moaning about things you can’t change on a forum.  Surely there’s time once you to return to Australia to pick up the hate campaign but for now just enjoy your final days with your parents. Many won’t see their parents ever again, sadly a horrific pandemic has hit the world and safety measures have had to be taken.  Be thankful you’ve been able to spend quality time with them and lighten up. 

It’s that sort of defeatist attitude that allows governments to ride roughshod over people.
 

You probably wouldn’t know or care, but people with stage 4 pancreatic cancer sleep a lot.I can hardly spend every waking hour with my Dad but when I can spend quality time with him I am. I spend approximately 15 minutes a day on PIO. 
 

Telling me to lighten up when my Dad is fading before my eyes is very hurtful. It’s telling me that you are not interested in the suffering of others. Have a lovely life....

Edited April 18, 2021 by Loopylu

[Toots]

28 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

My original post is about the UN case which relates specifically to the right of Australians to return to their country of citizenship, so why would I muddy the waters so yo speak with the issues you have raised? 

However, I agree it is very sad that families have been prevented from reuniting indefinitely as there is no roadmap. We were personally affected by this. My parents were due to come and stay with us for a month in 2020 as they try to do every year but were prevented by border closures. Now my Dad is terminally ill and so he will most likely not see my children (2x20 and 16) again. They could not travel with me to the UK due to work and education commitments and not knowing if they would be able to get back due to caps. 

Of course, the government is also in breach of IHR law by not letting people leave Australia, but as I said that is a separate issue. 

if there were more extensive quarantine facilities. then people with family overseas could travel to see family on the proviso they quarantined on return.

I read SBS regularly and there are some heartbreaking stories relating to the separation of families due to border closures. 

It's a difficult time for many people.  My sister had planned to spend a bit of time (3 months) here and I would have been heading off to stay with her in Edinburgh this year but that's not going to happen.  Our two sons - one in New York and one in Ireland are not going to be returning to see their dear old Mum and Dad for quite a while either.  As my Mum used to say "You just have to get on with it".  Luckily none of us are ill and need family around.  That would be a different kettle of fish.

[Toots]

17 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

It’s that sort of defeatist attitude that allows governments to ride roughshod over people.
 

You probably wouldn’t know or care, but people with stage 4 pancreatic cancer sleep a lot.I can hardly spend every waking hour with my Dad but when I can spend quality time with him I am. I spend approximately 15 minutes a day on PIO. 
 

Telling me to lighten up when my Dad is fading before my eyes is very hurtful. It’s telling me that you are not interested in the suffering of others. Have a lovely life....

I do have sympathy for you Loopylu but please don't take your anger and frustration out on Tulip.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by Toots

[Loopylu]

7 minutes ago, Toots said:

I do have sympathy for you Loopylu but please don't take your anger and frustration out on Tulip.  

Thanks Toots. I’ll stop posting on here as obviously a lot of people don’t want to hear uncomfortable truths or have their worldview challenged. 

[FirstWorldProblems]

18 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

Thanks Toots. I’ll stop posting on here as obviously a lot of people don’t want to hear uncomfortable truths or have their worldview challenged. 

Don’t do that. Challenge is good. Debate is good. 

[Dusty Plains]

On 17/04/2021 at 13:16, MacGyver said:

Australia has many questions to answer regarding human rights abuses, that is true. But it is also true that the UK has many questions to answer regarding human rights abuses (not least the treatment of disabled people in the UK, as identified by the UN).
 

I also note the current UK governments desire to opt out of aspects of the ECHR in order to remove asylum seekers, refugees etc more forcefully. Would you agree that the UK should address the above issues, like any other democracy worth its salt? 

I don't disagree with some of the points you make and my political views make me a natural ally to your position, but the abrasive and combative way in which you make them is difficult to support.

And those so-called "human rights abuses" would be .......... ???

[calNgary]

This thread is not in CTF and some posts have been removed. 

Cal x

[ramot]

2 hours ago, Loopylu said:

Thanks Toots. I’ll stop posting on here as obviously a lot of people don’t want to hear uncomfortable truths or have their worldview challenged. 

That works two ways, as from previous posts you are always right and never going to change your views, and can’t accept that. Not everyone agrees with you.

I have expressed sympathy with your situation previously, it’s very hard when you live so far away from your sick parent, but pre covid people couldn’t always afford the journey back to be with their sick parent, or sadly got back too late. Travelling at present is restricted due to covid, I doubt Australia is the only country affected, due to far fewer planes flying, but I just don’t understand why you have to be so aggressive and at times rude about members of PIO, who might not share your views,  Some of us might well be insular, but it is our right to be who we are, irrespective of what you think we should be, and how we should think.

Edited April 18, 2021 by ramot

[Parley]

1 hour ago, calNgary said:

This thread is not in CTF and some posts have been removed. 

Cal x

I do get confused why some posts are allowed and others aren't.

I have made simple posts about Covid news and you have deleted them.

But in other cases like this you allow covid talk and political discussion to remain.

The rules should be applied consistently or not at all.

[MacGyver]

6 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

And those so-called "human rights abuses" would be .......... ???

I'm conscious of Cal's post, so it's probably a debate for CTF. But also, I'm not sure if that debate is currently allowed on CTF. 

[calNgary]

11 hours ago, Parley said:

I do get confused why some posts are allowed and others aren't.

I have made simple posts about Covid news and you have deleted them.

But in other cases like this you allow covid talk and political discussion to remain.

The rules should be applied consistently or not at all.

As some members have requested the rules to be relaxed again as time has now passed, we have been allowing a little liency here and there before making a set decision, testing the water so to speak. Quite a few threads have mentioned covid as the thread has progressed and been fine. Unfortunately this thread has become an example of why the rules have not been relaxed. so on that note it will be closed.

 Cal x