Is it madness to take kids back to relocate to the UK currently?

[Hayley Gee]

I am very unhappy and need to go back to the UK as I miss family, friends and culture badly. My partner does not want to go back to UK at all and even more now because of COVID. We have a 9 year old and 11 year old who know the UK well (we moved fove years ago),  miss our family in the UK but enjoy the lifestyle here .  We only came here for a two year adventure as my partner's medic work is loads better here.  I have been trying to get home for three years but as my partner does not want to go he has resisted and refused. I don't want to rip out family apart so want us to go together.  I'm desperate to go back. Time is running out due to kids schools and my partner digging in his heals more deeply every day. Would moving back to the UK be completely foolish in the current COVID situation? 

[Quoll]

May I suggest marriage counselling for the pair of you? I’d have thought that medics are going to do very well wherever they go - I certainly met quite a few Australians in the medical field when I was in U.K. and they all seemed very happy.

It does seem that your issues are more relational because he’s changed the goal posts on you and that will either destroy your relationship or one of you is going to have to live the rest of your days with the least worst option and that’s potentially going to be painful for one or other of you.  The question you probably have to ask yourself is “is this the man I want to grow old beside” And if the answer to that is “yes” then you will need to work out what your least worst compromise scenario is going to look like.  If the resentment is already creeping in and you are beginning to lose the faith then you need to consider what that may look like for you.  
 

Sadly I don’t see an easy answer to your problem. It sounds like he isn’t going to move and would probably stop your kids from going too. If you do go then there is every likelihood that he will carry so much resentment that he won’t let that work either. I would hope that someone in the medical profession would be attuned to the deteriorating mental health of someone they love because of their actions but I’m sure some of them aren’t!  This may work if you can come up with a scenario that involves compromise on both sides but on one side part of that compromise is always going to be living in a place you don’t want to be, unfortunately.
 

As for going back in Covid times - millions of Britons are doing ok and there’s no reason why you shouldn’t! These are hard times across the board and things aren’t necessarily going to be peachy here either.  Good luck!

[BacktoDemocracy]

9 hours ago, Hayley Gee said:

I am very unhappy and need to go back to the UK as I miss family, friends and culture badly. My partner does not want to go back to UK at all and even more now because of COVID. We have a 9 year old and 11 year old who know the UK well (we moved fove years ago),  miss our family in the UK but enjoy the lifestyle here .  We only came here for a two year adventure as my partner's medic work is loads better here.  I have been trying to get home for three years but as my partner does not want to go he has resisted and refused. I don't want to rip out family apart so want us to go together.  I'm desperate to go back. Time is running out due to kids schools and my partner digging in his heals more deeply every day. Would moving back to the UK be completely foolish in the current COVID situation? 

I keep on repeating the same thing, read the online versions of the top end British papers, I will admit I am left wing so I  recommend the Guardian but read the British Times on subscription and even the Torygraph, you will get a clearer picture of the mess things are in here, average daily deaths continue at around 70-80 deaths.

Health services here remain under resourced and stretched.

Do seriously think carefully before you tear things apart.

There are other posts which have asked a similar question over the last week or so, reading those will give a range of thoughts on this.

Unfortunately you may have to look to some way of ameliorating your feelings because my reading of things is that international travel may not be feasible for quite a long time.

Do you  think some Counselling for you both ( marriage Counselling always seems imbued with pejorative overtones) so that you can explore your feelings of isolation and your husbands enjoyment of a less stressful life style might make it possible for you to more actively support each other and get back some shared goals, my other suggestion is to look for a therapist who is UK trained,  (BACP), in the UK many more therapists have moved on line so that may make it easier to arrange even in Australia in this time of covid, I only make that suggestion because  a understanding of the cultural differences between UK and Australia, yes we all know therapy is about thoughts but it saves a lot of explaining of nuances. .

Edited July 14, 2020 by BacktoDemocracy

[Marisawright]

53 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

I keep on repeating the same thing, read the online versions of the top end British papers,....you will get a clearer picture of the mess things are in here

@BacktoDemocracy, on the whole I agree with many of your posts, but I have to say, you seem to have a cloth ear when it comes to understanding those people who suffer from deeply-felt emotional distress when removed from their home country.    I sometimes wonder if you are one of those (like the OP's husband, no doubt) who think such people are being silly and not trying.

Sure, the OP may find that with the help of a therapist, she can learn to sacrifice her own feelings to please her husband, but that's not a fair or reasonable long-term solution. 

Regardless of how much of a mess the UK is in, there are many families living happily there and bringing up children happily there.  Whether life is better or not is not all about finances.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Marisawright

[Tulip1]

You mention not wanting to rip a family apart. I’m sure you are aware but just in case not, you will not be able to take your children back to the U.K. unless their father gives his permission. Many parents are left stuck in Australia (and other countries) because of The Hague Convention.  It’s a horrible situation you’re in and I hope you as a family can sort something out.  Best of luck. 

[BacktoDemocracy]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

@BacktoDemocracy, on the whole I agree with many of your posts, but I have to say, you seem to have a cloth ear when it comes to understanding those people who suffer from deeply-felt emotional distress when removed from their home country.    I sometimes wonder if you are one of those (like the OP's husband, no doubt) who think such people are being silly and not trying.

Sure, the OP may find that with the help of a therapist, she can learn to sacrifice her own feelings to please her husband, but that's not a fair or reasonable long-term solution. 

Regardless of how much of a mess the UK is in, there are many families living happily there and bringing up children happily there.  Whether life is better or not is not all about finances.

I was gently pointing out the limitations on peoples options whist the WORLD is in lockdown and suggesting that if people were more aware of what is happening in the UK, which is different to Australia, 44,000 deaths and still climbing, 30,000 redunndacies in 4 weeks, and those are just the big ones, millions fearful for their jobs and livelihoods and a govt committed to an act of economic self harm, then I feel that it is necessary  to suggest that people should appraise themselves of what they are dreaming of coming back to.and some of the hurdles there are in the way

I said nothing about "learning" to subjugate her feelings to those of her partner, with a good counsellor that is not the aim, it is give people a safe space to express themselves in and explore what those mean for them and how they impact themselves and those around them and possibly, possibly, explore where those strong feelings come from and hopefully see that they don't have to be the captive of negative feelings for ever and grow as independent individuals.  In Couples counselling it gives a safe space in which both parties can express rhemselves freely and explore their feelings and work, hopefully, towards greater understanding of each other and greater independence. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by BacktoDemocracy

[BacktoDemocracy]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

@BacktoDemocracy, on the whole I agree with many of your posts, but I have to say, you seem to have a cloth ear when it comes to understanding those people who suffer from deeply-felt emotional distress when removed from their home country.    I sometimes wonder if you are one of those (like the OP's husband, no doubt) who think such people are being silly and not trying.

Sure, the OP may find that with the help of a therapist, she can learn to sacrifice her own feelings to please her husband, but that's not a fair or reasonable long-term solution. 

Regardless of how much of a mess the UK is in, there are many families living happily there and bringing up children happily there.  Whether life is better or not is not all about finances.

I cannot help people with their feelings, I cannot tell them whether it's right to run back to what they know or embrace a new and different life but I can tell them how I am seeing the UK at the moment and mainly for the man in the sreet it can be both good, if you have the right job and good income or it can feel very exploitive if not.

 I recognise my politics is not attuned to my govts so I post some stuff which highlights the failings of the UK at the present, and I recommend that people investigate across the spectrum of opinion so that they are aware of how the UK is going, I always recommend the Guardian because it is the only UK newspaper with a counter narrative to the almost hysterically right wing press we now have in the UK, which you might guess from some of the posts on this site.

So without a fairly intense analysis of why people feel like they do you are reduced down to saying follow your gut, which is bit like saying do what you think is best and then they get back here and find that their area has no work, no transport, crap hospitals and crap schools which they could have found out by reading the bbc news site for a few weeks.

[VERYSTORMY]

I will give another view. The proportion of people getting  infected with Covid in the U.K. is now actually lower than Australia. Significantly lower. Even in England, which has the highest rate of the four nations, it is below Australia based on population. Scotland yesterday had 3 new infections and the WHO say it is on course to eliminate the virus. 
 

With regards to economy. Every country is going to feel this. But, I will say this, we provide a service to large construction projects, in all sectors. In all sectors, we are swamped with orders. To the extent, as I write this, my boss is interviewing to heavily recruit new staff and another member of management working late to buy capitol equipment. 
 

No country is out of the woods and no country has dealt with it ideally. It will be some years distant before we can make that assessment. 
 

As for health services. In the middle of the peak, my wife called her GP to say her hips hurt. She is 50. She has managed to see 3 consultants, her GP multiple times, had a range of tests carried out and thankfully come back with something minor. That, in the middle of a pandemic in the space of 3 months. The last time I needed to see a consultant was a relatively urgent in the middle of the pandemic, I waited 1 day. The last time I needed to see a consultant pre pandemic, it was referred by the GP at 8:30 in the morning and the appointment was 2:30 pm same day. 

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said:

I will give another view. The proportion of people getting  infected with Covid in the U.K. is now actually lower than Australia. Significantly lower. Even in England, which has the highest rate of the four nations, it is below Australia based on population. Scotland yesterday had 3 new infections and the WHO say it is on course to eliminate the virus. 
 

With regards to economy. Every country is going to feel this. But, I will say this, we provide a service to large construction projects, in all sectors. In all sectors, we are swamped with orders. To the extent, as I write this, my boss is interviewing to heavily recruit new staff and another member of management working late to buy capitol equipment. 
 

No country is out of the woods and no country has dealt with it ideally. It will be some years distant before we can make that assessment. 
 

As for health services. In the middle of the peak, my wife called her GP to say her hips hurt. She is 50. She has managed to see 3 consultants, her GP multiple times, had a range of tests carried out and thankfully come back with something minor. That, in the middle of a pandemic in the space of 3 months. The last time I needed to see a consultant was a relatively urgent in the middle of the pandemic, I waited 1 day. The last time I needed to see a consultant pre pandemic, it was referred by the GP at 8:30 in the morning and the appointment was 2:30 pm same day. 

https://www.mims.co.uk/live-updates-coronavirus-covid-19-uk/infections-and-infestations/article/1673649

For reference

[BacktoDemocracy]

On 14/7/2020 at 01:02, Hayley Gee said:

I am very unhappy and need to go back to the UK as I miss family, friends and culture badly. My partner does not want to go back to UK at all and even more now because of COVID. We have a 9 year old and 11 year old who know the UK well (we moved fove years ago),  miss our family in the UK but enjoy the lifestyle here .  We only came here for a two year adventure as my partner's medic work is loads better here.  I have been trying to get home for three years but as my partner does not want to go he has resisted and refused. I don't want to rip out family apart so want us to go together.  I'm desperate to go back. Time is running out due to kids schools and my partner digging in his heals more deeply every day. Would moving back to the UK be completely foolish in the current COVID situation? 

Just in case you missed this post elsewhere about counselling

 

You have to realise that therapy is about exploring feelings, where they come from and how they impact you and your life, sometimes they are from trauma and sometimes from childhood experiences and they can affect how you respond to situations in your life now, a bit like being bitten by a dog as a kid and then forgetting about it alto gether and then wondering why you are always frightened of dogs, their are different schools of therapy, through humanistic to psychoanalytical and the more cognitive approaches such as CBT , which find favour because they offer the chance of changing behaviours in quite short periods,( personally I am not an advocate but lots swear by it) psychoanalytical is often very lengthy,  humanistic such as Rogerian Client centered concentrates on the clients experience and can be wide ranging and c oncentrates on what the client is feeling in a free ranging manner,  instead of  imposing the therapist view of what is going on, what is important is that the process is not about advice giving which is the worst kind of therapeutic  relationship, it is more a voyage of discovery though your feelings and finding out how to be in control of your own life .

The British Association of Co unselling have a very good website as does Psychology Today

In Australia the counselling world is sewn up by clinical psychologists and this confuses things as you can only get insurance cover by going thro them, their are british trained counsellors out there but they may be exp ensive , have a look at the BACP website and that may help in sorting out j ust what you want. 

[Antipodista]

On 14/07/2020 at 20:41, BacktoDemocracy said:

https://www.mims.co.uk/live-updates-coronavirus-covid-19-uk/infections-and-infestations/article/1673649

For reference

That doesn’t compare the per capita infection rate though, it just gives cumulative cases. So whilst it’s interesting we get those figures on TV every day and they aren’t relevant to the point @VERYSTORMY was trying to make?

Its also nice to hear the flip side re the much maligned/told how it is failing NHS. Early on in the pandemic, when we were in full lockdown, my young daughter experienced some very troubling symptoms which could have been a sign of I dread to think. I called the GP just after 4pm, she had a face-to-face appointment at 4.30pm, and was in front of a Paediatric consultant at the local hospital by 8.30pm. And our NHS Trust isn’t even considered to be one of the good ones! Thankfully she’s totally fine but yeah, you only ever hear how rubbish it is here and that’s patently not the case for everyone.

[BacktoDemocracy]

3 hours ago, Antipodista said:

That doesn’t compare the per capita infection rate though, it just gives cumulative cases. So whilst it’s interesting we get those figures on TV every day and they aren’t relevant to the point @VERYSTORMY was trying to make?

Its also nice to hear the flip side re the much maligned/told how it is failing NHS. Early on in the pandemic, when we were in full lockdown, my young daughter experienced some very troubling symptoms which could have been a sign of I dread to think. I called the GP just after 4pm, she had a face-to-face appointment at 4.30pm, and was in front of a Paediatric consultant at the local hospital by 8.30pm. And our NHS Trust isn’t even considered to be one of the good ones! Thankfully she’s totally fine but yeah, you only ever hear how rubbish it is here and that’s patently not the case for everyone.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si<a href=

Deaths , Australia /million, 4

                 UK/million 664

Infections, Australia / million 424

                    UK/million 4299

And I am not slagging off the NHS, I am slagging off the incompetence of the govt's handling of this crisis, without the dedication of the NHS staff and staff in Care homes who have battled on in the face of crass decisions by politicians and the results of choices made to cut funding for years the situation would be far, far worse.

Truly 'Lions led by donkeys'

[Antipodista]

2 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si<a href=

Deaths , Australia /million, 4

                 UK/million 664

Infections, Australia / million 424

                    UK/million 4299

And I am not slagging off the NHS, I am slagging off the incompetence of the govt's handling of this crisis, without the dedication of the NHS staff and staff in Care homes who have battled on in the face of crass decisions by politicians and the results of choices made to cut funding for years the situation would be far, far worse.

Truly 'Lions led by donkeys'

Fair dos. Still not the current infection rate though

[BacktoDemocracy]

3 minutes ago, Antipodista said:

Fair dos. Still not the current infection rate though

Thank you

The infection rate is all over the place because there are so many variables, the number of tests completed, the number actually gotten to labs, the number which are valid or not viable, the speed of the results returned, in the UK the number of postal tests sent out and then invalid because spoiled or not returned, the number of people not being tested because their symptoms are not severe enough or not classified as essential workers.

All of that contributes to a sense of uncertainty about govt action, especially as it seems that there is a time lag on pulling stats together because of the use of private labs many miles from areas of outbreaks with little supervision.

So the 'only' reliable indicator is the death rate, which continues to rise inexorably at an avg daily rate of around 70-80 which seems to clearly say that the UK's TTI processes are simply not working as they should be and until that is rectified we simply will stay stuck in 'ground hog' day 

[VERYSTORMY]

5 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?utm_campaign=homeAdUOA?Si<a href=

Deaths , Australia /million, 4

                 UK/million 664

Infections, Australia / million 424

                    UK/million 4299

And I am not slagging off the NHS, I am slagging off the incompetence of the govt's handling of this crisis, without the dedication of the NHS staff and staff in Care homes who have battled on in the face of crass decisions by politicians and the results of choices made to cut funding for years the situation would be far, far worse.

Truly 'Lions led by donkeys'

But, you still haven’t covered the fact the current infection rate in Australia is far higher than the U.K. Australia, today had 317 new cases in Melbourne alone. UK had 530. UK has 2.5 times the population 

[VERYSTORMY]

2 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Thank you

The infection rate is all over the place because there are so many variables, the number of tests completed, the number actually gotten to labs, the number which are valid or not viable, the speed of the results returned, in the UK the number of postal tests sent out and then invalid because spoiled or not returned, the number of people not being tested because their symptoms are not severe enough or not classified as essential workers.

All of that contributes to a sense of uncertainty about govt action, especially as it seems that there is a time lag on pulling stats together because of the use of private labs many miles from areas of outbreaks with little supervision.

So the 'only' reliable indicator is the death rate, which continues to rise inexorably at an avg daily rate of around 70-80 which seems to clearly say that the UK's TTI processes are simply not working as they should be and until that is rectified we simply will stay stuck in 'ground hog' day 

Actually, the total number of deaths from any cause, is now lower in the U.K. than pre pandemic https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending3july2020

[newjez]

1 hour ago, VERYSTORMY said:

Actually, the total number of deaths from any cause, is now lower in the U.K. than pre pandemic https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending3july2020

Well, I guess you would expect deaths to decrease with lockdown. Just the road traffic deaths, plus slips and trips, pub casualties, reduced crime.

Tbh, I'm loving lockdown. It's turned the UK into a utopia.

[BacktoDemocracy]

4 hours ago, VERYSTORMY said:

Actually, the total number of deaths from any cause, is now lower in the U.K. than pre pandemic https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending3july2020

Yep because everybody has been quarantined so deaths from other communicable causes has been reduced significantly and deaths from accidental causes has been reduced significantly. 

[Island]

In terms of the stats comparing countries - think it is almost impossible to get a real idea as different countries have different testing capability...  Will definitely be an interesting study when this is all over, but for now, think its best to think of us all in the same boat no matter where we are - this isn't something that is going away so we will have to learn to live with it.

 

[BacktoDemocracy]

7 hours ago, Island said:

In terms of the stats comparing countries - think it is almost impossible to get a real idea as different countries have different testing capability...  Will definitely be an interesting study when this is all over, but for now, think its best to think of us all in the same boat no matter where we are - this isn't something that is going away so we will have to learn to live with it.

 

Agreed, too many variables and too many countries hiding the truth, but there is a order of magnitude which can be discerned and if you live somewhere you start to see what the obfuscations are unfortunately over time.

Unfortunately I think I would rather take my chances in Sth Korea than in the UK at the moment

Edited July 23, 2020 by BacktoDemocracy

[Island]

Have you made any decisions? It is such a hard time and life changing decisions are stressful at the best of times... Good luck