Moving bubs and toddler to UK, while father stays in Oz

[Mulling]

I met my Australian partner in Brisbane 5 years ago and we have had a child together and another one on the way. I am desperate to move home to the UK but despite previously agreeing to this my partner now says he will NEVER EVER move there. I’m desperate to go home and take the children with me but it seems like I am totally trapped here now. Has anyone had any experience of this, particularly where children are involved?

[ali]

So sorry to hear of your dilemma.  You will need his permission to remove the children, whilst he doesn't want to go, is he likely to let you go if you left him?

 

[Mulling]

No, he unfortunately wouldn’t, and would fight for custody. My son was born here, my partner has his business here, and we have a house here so I’m worried he would win.

[Amber Snowball]

2 minutes ago, Mulling said:

No, he unfortunately wouldn’t, and would fight for custody. My son was born here, my partner has his business here, and we have a house here so I’m worried he would win.

Oh dear. It looks like you are here for the foreseeable then. There is a thread on here about just this, I think it is a sticky, it is a warning to people about exactly this. No use to you now I know but it might be worth taking a look for similar stories and any advice. Australia enforces the Hague Convention quite strictly, not necessarily a bad thing, so you might need to get some legal advice on the exact details of your situation.

 I feel for you. I have an old work colleague who has been forced to stay in Australia because her ex wouldn’t give permission for her to leave, for years now. I would add that he has virtually no contact with the children and hasn’t for a good few years, but she is still unable to remove them. 

I think she has one left below 18. However, the middle one has started university now. I think she has a plan to return and the children all want to return so she might leave when the youngest finishes high school.

You might have to work out how you will cope with staying in Australia and build a life. Have you had a proper sit down open conversation on how you feel?

I wish you happiness whatever the outcome.

[Skani]

31 minutes ago, Mulling said:

anyone had any experience of this, particularly where children are involved?

Yes, unfortunately many have experienced this predicament.   This is the "sticky"  Amber Snowball referred to:

 

[Quoll]

Oh dear. Hate to say it but you're screwed. Not only may you not leave the country with your kids, your ex can restrict exactly where you do live - so if you're in Sydney and would get better support in Melbourne you can't.  Apart from sympathy there isn't much else unkess he's been abusive to either you or the kids and you feel for your safety in which case some of the women's services may help. So sorry for your predicament but we do warn of it fairly constantly.

Edited to say, as your desire to leave is so strong and will be impacting on your daily life, a few sessions with a counselor might help equip you with the tools to cope with each and every day you are trapped.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Quoll

[thinker78]

Unfortunately the Hague Convention is a nasty piece of outdated legislation. Australia has MANY mothers stuck onshore for this exact reason - and the courts in Oz are very harsh. I'm afraid Oz is your child's 'habitual residence' and unless he grants permission, it's unlikely to go in your favour in court. There are however support groups in place - some women are in terrible situations with no visa status and living in hostels, quite often the other parent doesn't even see the kids. There is a group called Globalaark who fight for parents who are 'stuck'. They can put you in touch with a local co-ordinator, if you feel you need some support. The other option is of course to try and reconcile with your other half, but it's hard when the resentment is there. But it's probably the better option. I'm sorry. So many people (and i'm speaking for the women here and in most cases it's them but i'm aware both parents can be affected) do not realise this when having children or taking children to Australia. It's really screwed a lot of people over, and the blanket law is harsh and not what it was originally intended for. I hope you can find some support. You may be in for their childhoods down under. Take care. 

[AJ]

Why do you say this about The Hague convention? Doesn’t the father get a choice in where his children live?

[thinker78]

Having researched it over a number of years, quite often it's applied regardless of individual circumstance. There are SO many people who are stuck, where the other parent has used it as a form of control, and where they don't support or see their children at all. Unfortunately international relationships and migration can present serious problems when things in a relationship go pear shaped. However, if you read lots of these cases, the law has been applied harshlly or the other parent has never been made to be accountable once the children are 'kept' in the country of residence. It gets really complicated where people migrate and suddenly habitual residence shifts- this can be a matter of months- and if you then decide you want to 'go home' you're stuck and so are the kids. 

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, AJ said:

Why do you say this about The Hague convention? Doesn’t the father get a choice in where his children live?

Yes of course they do.  However, there have been cases where one parent has refused to allow the children to leave Australia, but then shows no interest in seeing the kids.  Basically, the only reason they opposed the move is to spite the other partner.  

[JetBlast]

To balance this a little bit. If a family is split like this one parent has to be in a separate country to their children. I don't see why in these particular situations it should be the mother who is automatically favoured - In the days of equality nobody should be, both parents should be an equal. Of course this could be different in situations such as domestic violence but I don't think this is one of those situations based on the original post.

Mulling - Have you considered moving to a different area with your for a fresh start? Or if you're very desperate (we can't really judge this) can you leave the children in the custody of their father you live in the UK?

[Marisawright]

Here is a book on the subject by a PomsinOz member

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Let-Happen-You-Emigrating-ebook/dp/B00FV80PTM/

[Mulling]

Thanks all, albeit looks like my prospects are looking rather depressing! The sticky note is really helpful too, hopefully will prevent others ending up in my situation.

Has anyone any thoughts on...

1. If I was on holidays with my child in the UK and opted not to return, would this still be considered abduction / rule in favour of my partner?

2. If I gave birth to my second child in the UK, would my partner have the right to bring him/her back to Australia?

Thanks

 

 

 

[ali]

52 minutes ago, Mulling said:

Thanks all, albeit looks like my prospects are looking rather depressing! The sticky note is really helpful too, hopefully will prevent others ending up in my situation.

Has anyone any thoughts on...

1. If I was on holidays with my child in the UK and opted not to return, would this still be considered abduction / rule in favour of my partner?

2. If I gave birth to my second child in the UK, would my partner have the right to bring him/her back to Australia?

Thanks

 

 

 

I think if you went on holiday and didn't return - yes, it would be considered abduction

Not sure about point 2 - they'd certainly be a citizen - but would you want to split up your children?

[Mulling]

Thanks Ali, definetly would want to avoid splitting the kids. Both kids would be entitled to British citizenship (my son already has it and planning to get it for the new bubba too). However I think the courts look at normal place of residence, which would be Oz except if I was to give birth in the UK perhaps - I’m wondering if this could be my lifeline!

[ali]

5 minutes ago, Mulling said:

Thanks Ali, definetly would want to avoid splitting the kids. Both kids would be entitled to British citizenship (my son already has it and planning to get it for the new bubba too). However I think the courts look at normal place of residence, which would be Oz except if I was to give birth in the UK perhaps - I’m wondering if this could be my lifeline!

For the new baby perhaps .. but not for your eldest

[thinker78]

yes your eldest is most definitely habitually resident in oz. if you took him for a holiday and didn't go back, dad could easily lodge under the hague. in theory you'd have to let your eldest then return if he was successful - it's not about the mum, just the kids, but it's extremely rare that people will choose not to return if their kids have to. I'm afraid if you don't get consent you'd have to seek legal advice but i believe that you don't have a strong case in terms of your eldest. They are most definitely australian and Australian courts are very supportive of the australian parent and child - other countries aren't quite so harsh but Aus and NZ are both quite harsh. You need permission or maybe stay in the relationship. Why is he so adamant he will never live in the UK? Maybe look at his reasons and talk about them. Maybe agree to do it for a few years etc. Perhaps he knows that once in the UK you won't want to leave and your kids will then be habitually resident there. I'm afraid youre in a bit of a bind, but you're not the first. Get some support from the group. They are very helpful. 

[ali]

@Mulling .. just thinking - can your partner actually reside in the UK - does he/you meet the criteria for him to move there?

[JetBlast]

Thanks Ali, definetly would want to avoid splitting the kids. Both kids would be entitled to British citizenship (my son already has it and planning to get it for the new bubba too). However I think the courts look at normal place of residence, which would be Oz except if I was to give birth in the UK perhaps - I’m wondering if this could be my lifeline!

Do you not think that doing something like this is cruel on the father? In addition to this you split up the children and they don't get to see their father.

From an outsider's view it comes across as being selfish.

[Quoll]

1 hour ago, Mulling said:

Thanks Ali, definetly would want to avoid splitting the kids. Both kids would be entitled to British citizenship (my son already has it and planning to get it for the new bubba too). However I think the courts look at normal place of residence, which would be Oz except if I was to give birth in the UK perhaps - I’m wondering if this could be my lifeline!

 

2 minutes ago, JetBlast said:

Do you not think that doing something like this is cruel on the father? In addition to this you split up the children and they don't get to see their father.

From an outsider's view it comes across as being selfish.

Equally, if one person in a relationship has mental health issues which could be ameliorated by moving elsewhere is it not selfish of their partner to facilitate that move.  Compromise is always key but to fail to acknowledge or work with a partner who has exogenous depression - as the OP may well - is abuse.

As for giving birth in UK - I think you just declare that as your habitual place of residence and you have the baby there, they can't force you to return the baby to Australia. However, the ramifications of splitting up siblings is not a situation to be taken lightly. I guess it all depends on your state of desperation.

[JetBlast]

Equally, if one person in a relationship has mental health issues which could be ameliorated by moving elsewhere is it not selfish of their partner to facilitate that move.  

Agreed but we can't really know that from what we have. That's why I said it's how it's coming across.

[Tulip1]

4 hours ago, Mulling said:

Thanks Ali, definetly would want to avoid splitting the kids. Both kids would be entitled to British citizenship (my son already has it and planning to get it for the new bubba too). However I think the courts look at normal place of residence, which would be Oz except if I was to give birth in the UK perhaps - I’m wondering if this could be my lifeline!

No, giving birth there would have no baring on the law, why should it? Your oldest child would be forced to return to Oz, not sure about the other one. You are in a horrible situation and one which can never be resolved without one person losing out. To consider taking your child on holiday to the uk and not returning him to his home land and other parent Is wrong. I know you are upset that it’s very wrong and I can’t  imagine any court would let you do that.  So no, it’s not a lifeline. My understanding of The Hague convention is the child would be taken back to Oz immediately and you can then take it to court after that if you want to.  That means when your child is forced back you either go with him or he goes alone, probably under the care of social services or his father could fly back and get him. Horrible situation you are in but the law is there for a reason,  like  to stop people going on ‘holidays’ and thinking they won’t return.