Rachel Tilley Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It is hard for the children, I know this from experience with my son. He is torn between two parents and two countries. I always say that once a Relocation/Leave To Remove is granted, it is not the end of something, it is the beginning of a whole new something, and more efforts need to be made by both parents to maintain that contact. It should not be seen as a permission to finally get rid of one parent from the past out of your lives because you have moved to another country, although I accept that that's how many parents with useless/lazy/violent/halfwit/unreliable/none paying ex's feel! (I was one of them but have since been educated - by the love of my son and his father!) I've just dropped my son off at the airport and he's now flying to Australia to stay with his dad for a guaranteed 5 months. He's spent the last 8 years flying backwards and forwards between the UK and Australia for the three weeks, four weeks and five weeks at at time that has been available, and in that time has sort of got to know his brothers and his dad's new family. Every time he leaves, he leaves a bit more of himself in Australia, has got to know his dad a bit better and then it all gets undone again during the next long time of separation. For those of you who have read my other posts, you will know that I left an angry and abusive man, so the decision to Relocate from Australia to England was good for me, and at the time, I felt it was the best choice for my son. I genuinely believed that my ex would not stay in touch and would have given up after losing the court case. But I was surprised that he didn't - and now I'm thankful of that. At least my son has grown up to know who his father is and what sort of man he is. Now he has 5 months to make his mind up whether he wants that type of life, or the type of life I have raised him with. When my son was younger, the short visits sufficed his needs, but as he got older they didn't. So, although as a parent you may want your ex out of your life for ever, and a Relocation can help to achieve that, it is not ALWAYS the best thing for the children too. So have plans for allowing them to return for visits (airlines do a service for children flying by themselves called Unaccompanied Minor Service) at least once a year. Let them have that contact (if the other parent does still want it) and then let the children make their own minds up about their relationship with that parent. If they think that parent is a loser then they won't want to go and visit, but if they want that parent in their life then so it should be. What the children are happy with or think they want at 7-11 years old may change when they reach their teens, and we have to learn to live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Tilley Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I get very emotional about that topic here as I'm a victim of the divorce of my own parents and only affected people like me seem to be able to have a voice for childrens needs as I know from my own painful experience and trauma I'd gone through how that really hurts to lose a father. Thank you for sharing this. I have seen the sadness in my son for the last five or six months as he has struggled with his feelings and now reading this you have confirmed my thoughts that my son's visit to Oz to live with his dad for the next five months has been the right thing. It may be only five months, or he may choose for it to be permanent, but at least he has the opportunity to try it and see what it's like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I am hoping being without her father for longer periods will make the heart grow fonder and during their time together they will form a much closer bond... Read this back to yourself and see whether you actually believe it. It sounds like nonsense to me. I'm guessing there may be one, maybe two visits and they will realise they have become strangers. All contact will end and you will have orphaned your daughter. I hope your fun and adventure makes her sacrifice worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It is hard for the children, I know this from experience with my son. He is torn between two parents and two countries. I always say that once a Relocation/Leave To Remove is granted, it is not the end of something, it is the beginning of a whole new something, and more efforts need to be made by both parents to maintain that contact. It should not be seen as a permission to finally get rid of one parent from the past out of your lives because you have moved to another country, although I accept that that's how many parents with useless/lazy/violent/halfwit/unreliable/none paying ex's feel! (I was one of them but have since been educated - by the love of my son and his father!) I've just dropped my son off at the airport and he's now flying to Australia to stay with his dad for a guaranteed 5 months. He's spent the last 8 years flying backwards and forwards between the UK and Australia for the three weeks, four weeks and five weeks at at time that has been available, and in that time has sort of got to know his brothers and his dad's new family. Every time he leaves, he leaves a bit more of himself in Australia, has got to know his dad a bit better and then it all gets undone again during the next long time of separation. For those of you who have read my other posts, you will know that I left an angry and abusive man, so the decision to Relocate from Australia to England was good for me, and at the time, I felt it was the best choice for my son. I genuinely believed that my ex would not stay in touch and would have given up after losing the court case. But I was surprised that he didn't - and now I'm thankful of that. At least my son has grown up to know who his father is and what sort of man he is. Now he has 5 months to make his mind up whether he wants that type of life, or the type of life I have raised him with. When my son was younger, the short visits sufficed his needs, but as he got older they didn't. So, although as a parent you may want your ex out of your life for ever, and a Relocation can help to achieve that, it is not ALWAYS the best thing for the children too. So have plans for allowing them to return for visits (airlines do a service for children flying by themselves called Unaccompanied Minor Service) at least once a year. Let them have that contact (if the other parent does still want it) and then let the children make their own minds up about their relationship with that parent. If they think that parent is a loser then they won't want to go and visit, but if they want that parent in their life then so it should be. What the children are happy with or think they want at 7-11 years old may change when they reach their teens, and we have to learn to live with that. What a poignant post Rachel. I knew someone who came to Aus with a new partner and her child from a previous relationship, her ex had signed the papers to say it was ok. Her biggest aim was to maintain the contact between father and daughter because she said that as her daughter got older two things could happen - she could wonder why her father didn't fight hard enough to make her stay or how her mother could make her leave her father behind. It's an incredibly fine balance and I applaud those parents like yourself who manage to get it right and are able to put your personal feelings about their own past relationship behind the needs of their children when the absent parent wishes to continue to be a part of their childs life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 What a poignant post Rachel. I knew someone who came to Aus with a new partner and her child from a previous relationship, her ex had signed the papers to say it was ok. Her biggest aim was to maintain the contact between father and daughter because she said that as her daughter got older two things could happen - she could wonder why her father didn't fight hard enough to make her stay or how her mother could make her leave her father behind. It's an incredibly fine balance and I applaud those parents like yourself who manage to get it right and are able to put your personal feelings about their own past relationship behind the needs of their children when the absent parent wishes to continue to be a part of their childs life. Yet the father's dilemma could have been avoided completely if the mother had given priority to the daughter's continued relationship with her father - i.e. not even considered emigration given the daughter's circumstances. Having a child is a big decision and it means you may have to change your priorities and it may restrict your choices and personal freedoms. I cannot even find words to describe the selfishness of a mother who tries to take children away from fathers with whom they still have contact. I don't view this as an example of getting the balance right or being mature - it looks to me like a case of a father desparately trying to work out what the least worst outcome might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Yeah i'm a bit surprised by the person berating the dad for only visiting a couple of times and contact going down. It's not like Australia is a bus journey away. Also over the last 6 years or so has been horrendously expensive to visit from the UK due to the exchange rate. I wonder how many times the child was sent to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 My Ex just up sticks and emigrated to Australia leaving his Daughters, as he then thought forever. Then refused to sign to agree for me to remove the youngest so we could emigrate here too. ( they walk amongst us! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 @Quinkla, your comments are a bit harsh, you talk as if it was yourself personally gone through this scenario (perhaps you have?), that's how it comes across to me, very blunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jac2011 Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 @Quinkla each person is different and I do still stand by my comments. I know their relationship will stay as close as it is now, if not better. If that's your view on life then that's fine but you don't know mine and my ex's role in our children's life so you have no right to criticise. I am doing what is right for my family and I know that their bond will remain as close as ever. I know my ex will visit and I know my children will return home to spend time with him once they have settled. I am entitled to my opinion so please don't criticise it because you have a differing view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I do agree with @Quinkla in that it is very self serving to say I am taking my children away from their father, but I think it is in their best interest. That is really a crock of you know what. How some people can keep a straight face when they something like that is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 @Quinkla, your comments are a bit harsh I promise they are just a fraction of the strength of my feelings the subject. I turned my life upside down to allow my stepsons to maintain contact with their father. I can't understand why others won't do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silencio Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Thank you for sharing this. I have seen the sadness in my son for the last five or six months as he has struggled with his feelings and now reading this you have confirmed my thoughts that my son's visit to Oz to live with his dad for the next five months has been the right thing. It may be only five months, or he may choose for it to be permanent, but at least he has the opportunity to try it and see what it's like. For you as a mother I hope that your son keeps in contact with you and will acknowledge what you've done for him! I've read your story halfway and losing a parent no matter if that's a mother or father is hard for a child and if your son could have that strong bond with both parents would be fabulous. Teenagers change their mind very often and in your case the jury is still out as daily routine with his father and rules in dad's house won't be the same as it was on holidays. All the best to you and your son's rite of passage. To my story: after 11 years without any contact to my father (mum strongly opposed and sabotaged that) he contacted me via letter 12 years ago and since then we rebuild our relationship which of course couldn't bridge the missing decade but have a lose and easy-going 'friendship' since. He become more like a 'friend' because he couldn't be the 'father figure' but my brother never regained that connection and is not willing to (he was only 10 when my parents separated I was 14 and I was able to build a bond with my father for 14 years but a 10 year old child has not enough powers of recollection of a father and that bond can be destroyed far more). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silencio Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Parents shouldn't be allowed to remove children below the age of 12-14, depending on maturity of their children! Children need time to establish at least permanent powers of recollection of the separated parent and courts should involve the most possible uninfluenced will of the affected child (=not brainwashed by the selfish looking after parent). Sometimes it seems to me who has the 'best lawyer' will win the court case because it's highly recommended to 'hire a good lawyer' as this is really important for the child? Why can't separated parents just wait until the child is old enough to make that life influencing decision by him- or herself? Australia will still be there and it's beyond comprehension for me why a parent wants to remove a small child without any ability to speak for oneself to a foreign country? Can't emigration wait a couple of years and problems would be resolve automatically, no court, no money lost just a little bit patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 It's not really about who has the best lawyer. I have never heard of a mother being denied the right to take a child overseas by the UK courts. The father is always going to lose - and for him, it will be about trying to salvage crimes. But he will know, deep down, that the relationship with the child(re) will be dead within two years. To be fair, for some people emigration is time critical. They may be about to lose points through age, or may worry that their skill won't be in demand in the future. To be honest, though, I'd say that's just tough. We all make sacrifices for our kids. But it turns my stomach that on this site, we see a parade of wantonly selfish individuals asking for advice on how to take their kids away from their fathers and demand not to be exposed to any comments on the morality of what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I promise they are just a fraction of the strength of my feelings the subject. I turned my life upside down to allow my stepsons to maintain contact with their father. I can't understand why others won't do the same. My scenario is regarding my Stepson, and it's my stepsons decision not to have any time for his father. As his mother is Australian anyway, it was only a matter of time before we came to Australia, whether through the courts or when my stepson was old enough to do it on his own accord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Hi Sonya, Also been through this myself with my son. It was a difficult time and involved lots of hard work, worry, sleepless nights (you know the story). The case for my son was two hearings, the first one was very short as I didn't prepare very well for it, and the judge told me to come back in a month. I went back in fully armed with everything that the judge wanted. A short interview with CAFCASS and that was it. We were in the waiting room for longer than in the court room. Of course, every case is different and some will be more difficult than others but I'd say don't work yourself up, do all the preparation fully, and be polite and respectful to all in the court room, no matter if certain people try to goad you. (Then scream your head off in the toilets afterwards if you need to!!). Best of luck! Added: also, I hired a barrister for the final hearing like @lisaharrison did, it is worth it to have a good legal mind and a courtroom experienced person standing by your side. Hi CaptainC, can you give some idea of the questions asked by the judge, we have done some homework already, like the area where we intend to move, job prospects, local clubs for my stepson, he is big into Football, schools and colleges etc........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I know people have included how they intend to ensure contact between the child and absent parent e.g Skype, visits to Aus (if they will be funding/part funding flights or accommodation etc.,) or if the child will be visiting UK and how often etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I know people have included how they intend to ensure contact between the child and absent parent e.g Skype, visits to Aus (if they will be funding/part funding flights or accommodation etc.,) or if the child will be visiting UK and how often etc. But we all know that's not legally enforceable and based on evidence from PIO, it tends to be forgotten within weeks of emigration. A single parent taking their kids to the other side of the world guarantees they will lose contact with the other parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silencio Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 The whole court progress seems to be a farce to me when fathers lose contact - and Skype isn't good enough to replace a father in reality - and promising funding to visit each other what a hooey when migrating parents come here without a job or hardly can sustain themselves financially. How will that work a mum with kids coming here facing unemployment but promised the father back in the UK/home country to pay for visits to see the children? As we all know Australia is expensive and savings can easily eaten up within months (especially with kids). Just empty phrases in order to get a positive verdict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 But we all know that's not legally enforceable and based on evidence from PIO, it tends to be forgotten within weeks of emigration. A single parent taking their kids to the other side of the world guarantees they will lose contact with the other parent. I'm sure it does in a lot of cases and not in others - the OP was asking what else - and that is what people have included. Up to those involved if they think it important enough to ensure implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Up to those involved if they think it important enough to ensure implementation. No. These agreements are unenforceable so it's not possible to "ensure implementation". Besides which, my point is that even when agreements about ongoing contact are made in good faith, the reality is that contact by Skype with (or without) occasional visits is not enough to sustain a relationship between parent and child. This is not about people judging it to be important or not, it is about what is emotionally possible or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 The OP now has all of the information needed and as the thread has moved off topic I am closing the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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