Uk law degree

[Daniellequinn46]

Hi. 

I have a UK LLB and wanted to know if this would class me as a skilled worker and if i'd be able to practice in oz. I haven't yet got the 2 years QWE or sat the SQE. Would this go against me? Should I do this first before applying for a visa? Me and my family really want to move out to Australia and I'm trying to find the best way to do it. 

Thanks 

Danielle

 

[BendigoBoy]

49 minutes ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

Hi. 

I have a UK LLB and wanted to know if this would class me as a skilled worker and if i'd be able to practice in oz. I haven't yet got the 2 years QWE or sat the SQE. Would this go against me? Should I do this first before applying for a visa? Me and my family really want to move out to Australia and I'm trying to find the best way to do it. 

Thanks 

Danielle

 

I think at least part of the answer to this will be hinged upon whether you read Scots or English law.

Edited March 21 by BendigoBoy

[Tulip1]

I’d suggest you have a consultation with a migration agent.  They can tell you if you stand a chance of getting a visa and what you need to do to make it happen if not.  There are several agents who regularly post on this forum and they are highly regarded. 

Edited March 21 by Tulip1

[Loopylu]

7 hours ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

Hi. 

I have a UK LLB and wanted to know if this would class me as a skilled worker and if i'd be able to practice in oz. I haven't yet got the 2 years QWE or sat the SQE. Would this go against me? Should I do this first before applying for a visa? Me and my family really want to move out to Australia and I'm trying to find the best way to do it. 

Thanks 

Danielle

Hi Danielle

Firstly I don't think lawyers have ever been on the skills list for Australia. Australian universities churn out loads of lawyers and the government has actually increased law degree fees to discourage the uptake and to encourage students to study STEM subjects. 

Secondly, you need to get a few years' working experience after admission as a solicitor in the UK before trying to make the move.

As a UK admitted lawyer, I relocated to Qld in 2008 but was sponsored over by a top tier law firm because I specialised in energy law and there was a shortage of lawyers at that time with the required experience. At that time I had 13 years PQE experience. To practice here (rather than work as an overseas qualified lawyer under supervision of an Australian admitted lawyer), I had to take exams and then get admitted here. This took a year and I only had to do 3 exams.  Since then the number of exams has increased and so, if you are working fulltime and studying in your own time as I was, requalification may take longer than a year.  I was then under supervision for 2 years before getting an unrestricted practising certificate. 

Law firms here will not be interested in employing you with just an LLB. You will need to do your SQE, two year training contract and get a few years of post qualification experience  in the UK before they may consider you. If you are still relatively young, you could maybe get a working holiday visa and then try to get work as a paralegal here and then you could see whether working in the Australian legal profession is for you. 

I hope this information helps even if it is probably not what you want to read.

All the best

 

 

[paulhand]

3 hours ago, Loopylu said:

Firstly I don't think lawyers have ever been on the skills list for Australia.

Actually, solicitor and barrister are both on the Medium and Long-term Skills Shortage List and are available for independent skilled migration. 

Edited March 22 by paulhand

[Loopylu]

I stand corrected as this was never the case previously. However, when I just searched the list they only want IP lawyers (a very limited category).  Barristers are specified as a general category but, as they are contractors affiliated to chambers, they don’t have employee rights and it’s a hard market to break into. You need connections from law school or have gone to the right private schools to make it here. 
The shortage of specialist IP lawyers is because outside of Sydney and Melbourne there is little work and what there is is run of the mill. Most young Aussies who specialise in this field go to London or the US to get interesting work. They come back after a few years for family reasons and often go in-house to universities. The IP teams in top tier law firms are very small. 

[paulhand]

2 hours ago, Loopylu said:

I stand corrected as this was never the case previously. However, when I just searched the list they only want IP lawyers (a very limited category).  Barristers are specified as a general category but, as they are contractors affiliated to chambers, they don’t have employee rights and it’s a hard market to break into. You need connections from law school or have gone to the right private schools to make it here. 
The shortage of specialist IP lawyers is because outside of Sydney and Melbourne there is little work and what there is is run of the mill. Most young Aussies who specialise in this field go to London or the US to get interesting work. They come back after a few years for family reasons and often go in-house to universities. The IP teams in top tier law firms are very small. 

Solicitor has been on the skill shortage list since at least 2014.

I’m not sure where you saw the information about only IP lawyers? The relevant skills list does not have any caveats for ‘Solicitor’ and therefore is open to any suitably qualified solicitor. Of course, that does not guarantee an invitation or employability, as with any occupation. 

[Daniellequinn46]

Hiya,

 

Thanks for your advice. Like Paul said being a solicitor is on the skilled list and it doesn't specify which field. Just solicitors or baristers. I wondered if it was worth me sitting the SQE or if I could do the equivalent over in australia. I have seen the FDA agreement says a UK law degree is transferable so it was more the sqe and qwe that I'm questioning. Being a paralegal here counts and I wondered if I could become a paralegal out there and then sit the equivalent exams in australia.

 

I unfortunately can't come out in a WHV because I have 3 young children (4, 2 and 3 months) I'm not willing to leave behind. I'll have to do more research into it bit I just wondered if anyone knew.

 

It probably is better to stay here longer and get the 2 things done but I just want a better life for my family and the sooner we leave this country the better 

 

Thanks

Danielle

[Loopylu]

6 minutes ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

Hiya,

 

Thanks for your advice. Like Paul said being a solicitor is on the skilled list and it doesn't specify which field. Just solicitors or baristers. I wondered if it was worth me sitting the SQE or if I could do the equivalent over in australia. I have seen the FDA agreement says a UK law degree is transferable so it was more the sqe and qwe that I'm questioning. Being a paralegal here counts and I wondered if I could become a paralegal out there and then sit the equivalent exams in australia.

 

I unfortunately can't come out in a WHV because I have 3 young children (4, 2 and 3 months) I'm not willing to leave behind. I'll have to do more research into it bit I just wondered if anyone knew.

 

It probably is better to stay here longer and get the 2 things done but I just want a better life for my family and the sooner we leave this country the better 

 

Thanks

Danielle

Have you visited Australia previously? I am concerned that you think life will definitely be better here. It took me over 10 years to be on a salary better than what I was on in the UK. The pay differential here between partners and staff is much more pronounced than in the UK. In the UK, I had free private health insurance from my law firm in Birmingham. Here Medicare is not all free with expensive gaps and private healthcare will cost you upwards of $500 a month for your family - it won’t be provided by your employer. There are also huge gaps (ie it only covers part of the cost of treatment and you pay the difference.)  The public hospitals here are struggling just like the NHS. State schools.are very underfunded. 
I also went from 29 days annual leave a year plus public holidays  to 20 days plus public holidays. To get long service leave you have to do 10 years with one employer which may be hard to do if you want to progress in your career. 
I am only here because I agreed to live in my husband’s country. If I had my time over I would have stayed put. 
 

[Daniellequinn46]

I've not been to australia no. I figured wasting money on visiting that could go towards the move wouldn't be worth it. I can't imagine it will be worse than the UK and worst case I can just return. 

I understand that it's not as high paid in australia for lawyers and that doesn't bother me. Having a better quality of life is my main interest. The work life balance is way better there. I'd much rather sacrifice some or my salary to have balance than work work work here snd not enjoy it. I understand medicare isn't free and it's taken from wages just like national insurance here, although the percentage is less in Australia. You can get appointments and tests way quicker than the weeks, months and sometimes years it takes here. 

Having nice weather and lots to do outside for my children to roam is better in my eyes than them being huddled up indoors the majority of the year with both their parents working like crazy. 

I've don't a lot of research into family life and it's way better than we can have here. It was a move between America and Australia for us and Australia won the toss up with the information we have. 

It's just a case of finding how much experience I need to be able to apply for the move. If I could I'd pack my cases and leave today but it's obviously not that simple. We're aiming to arrive with £30k so that should cover the time it takes to do some exploring and find jobs for us both

[Daniellequinn46]

 

13 hours ago, BendigoBoy said:

I think at least part of the answer to this will be hinged upon whether you read Scots or English law.

Its English law I've studied

[Daniellequinn46]

12 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

I’d suggest you have a consultation with a migration agent.  They can tell you if you stand a chance of getting a visa and what you need to do to make it happen if not.  There are several agents who regularly post on this forum and they are highly regarded. 

Thank you so much. I'll take a look and speak to them. I've seen quite a few. I'm sure they be able to advise me better

[BendigoBoy]

9 minutes ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

I've not been to australia no. I figured wasting money on visiting that could go towards the move wouldn't be worth it. I can't imagine it will be worse than the UK and worst case I can just return. 

I understand that it's not as high paid in australia for lawyers and that doesn't bother me. Having a better quality of life is my main interest. The work life balance is way better there. I'd much rather sacrifice some or my salary to have balance than work work work here snd not enjoy it. I understand medicare isn't free and it's taken from wages just like national insurance here, although the percentage is less in Australia. You can get appointments and tests way quicker than the weeks, months and sometimes years it takes here. 

Having nice weather and lots to do outside for my children to roam is better in my eyes than them being huddled up indoors the majority of the year with both their parents working like crazy. 

I've don't a lot of research into family life and it's way better than we can have here. It was a move between America and Australia for us and Australia won the toss up with the information we have. 

It's just a case of finding how much experience I need to be able to apply for the move. If I could I'd pack my cases and leave today but it's obviously not that simple. We're aiming to arrive with £30k so that should cover the time it takes to do some exploring and find jobs for us both

I had to chuckle at the line about work life balance. 71 hours I have been at my desk this week...

[Nemesis]

29 minutes ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

I've not been to australia no. I figured wasting money on visiting that could go towards the move wouldn't be worth it. I can't imagine it will be worse than the UK and worst case I can just return. 

I understand that it's not as high paid in australia for lawyers and that doesn't bother me. Having a better quality of life is my main interest. The work life balance is way better there. I'd much rather sacrifice some or my salary to have balance than work work work here snd not enjoy it. I understand medicare isn't free and it's taken from wages just like national insurance here, although the percentage is less in Australia. You can get appointments and tests way quicker than the weeks, months and sometimes years it takes here. 

Having nice weather and lots to do outside for my children to roam is better in my eyes than them being huddled up indoors the majority of the year with both their parents working like crazy. 

I've don't a lot of research into family life and it's way better than we can have here. It was a move between America and Australia for us and Australia won the toss up with the information we have. 

It's just a case of finding how much experience I need to be able to apply for the move. If I could I'd pack my cases and leave today but it's obviously not that simple. We're aiming to arrive with £30k so that should cover the time it takes to do some exploring and find jobs for us both

Please be careful with the old chestnuts about "better work-life balance" and "better quality of life"- especially if you have never been to Australia, even on holiday.  Do yourself a favour and read recent threads on here and on similar websites - and make sure they are recent as many things about living in Australia are now very different from life there 10 or even 5 years ago. 

I was always glad I don't have a family, as my work-life balance was a work-work balance, and though I could have afforded to have kids I would have had no time to spend with them. I do hope you would be able to spend time with your kids instead of "working like crazy" but that not the experience of many families, with kids in long hours of childcare & after-school care - and often huddled indoors because the weather is simply too hot to lay outside. You can dress up in cold weather, not so easy when its hot.

Your comments on Medicare - its not all taken from your wages. Finding a bulk-billing doctor now is like finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. So even though you pay for it out of your wages, you are still paying to see doctors, paying gap fees for treatment, paying higher prescription fees. Its NOT the NHS. 

Good luck - just make sure you have your eyes open  

[Tulip1]

2 hours ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

Thank you so much. I'll take a look and speak to them. I've seen quite a few. I'm sure they be able to advise me better

Paul who’s commented above is a regular agent on here and is highly regarded.

[Loopylu]

9 hours ago, BendigoBoy said:

I had to chuckle at the line about work life balance. 71 hours I have been at my desk this week...

Yes - I worked much harder in private practice in Australia than the UK but now work in-house so have my life back. I used to have to do all-nighters on deals here and never got any TOIL or extra pay. I’ve spent nearly 30 years working  as a solicitor in both jurisdictions but it appears I know nothing….

 

[Ausvisitor]

Work life balance being better in Australia is generally speaking now a myth (or a memory of a bygone decade), at least if you need a city of large town to support your particular career or you want a decent school for your kids.

I work in consulting (and whilst not law we have a lot of similarities, work driven by client timescales and needs, deadlines not changing when the need to do more discovered etc) and I can safely say I've not done less than 60 hours a week since Christmas, in nearly two decades doing the same job in the UK I never worked this hard.

That said the weather is better and people are friendlier.

[Quoll]

26 minutes ago, Ausvisitor said:

Work life balance being better in Australia is generally speaking now a myth (or a memory of a bygone decade), at least if you need a city of large town to support your particular career or you want a decent school for your kids.

I work in consulting (and whilst not law we have a lot of similarities, work driven by client timescales and needs, deadlines not changing when the need to do more discovered etc) and I can safely say I've not done less than 60 hours a week since Christmas, in nearly two decades doing the same job in the UK I never worked this hard.

That said the weather is better and people are friendlier.

LOL, yes. Been retired for a while now, but I always chuckle at the better work life balance thing. Used to joke that my husband always worked 5-9 (and usually at least one day at the weekend) and I wasn't much better but I had more flexibility for the kids.

[Marisawright]

13 hours ago, Daniellequinn46 said:

Having a better quality of life is my main interest. The work life balance is way better there.

That's not necessarily true.  Don't get me wrong, unlike LoopyLu, I love Australia and have lived here for almost 40 years.  The lifestyle and attitudes suit me much better than the lifestyle and attitudes in the UK, and that may be the case for you too.  However the work-life balance is one of the major disadvantages of living here, if you work in the corporate or legal sectors. For tradies, teachers, medical staff it's different. But that's not you.

Firstly, the standard workday in many offices is 8.30 to 5.30, not 9 to 5.  So it's already a longer day, and then most people will be in the office considerably earlier or later -- because if you stick to those hours, you'll be regarded as clock-watching and get a bad performance review (I've known colleagues lose their bonuses over it, which is ridiculous considering they did their job and worked their full legally-contracted hours).  Also, to get time off for holidays (which are only 20 days a year), you have to go into battle with your boss (HR departments are always talking about encouraging staff to take leave, but that's all talk).  The articles below are both recent and older, showing it's been an ingrained culture in Australian offices for a long time:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-22/why-are-so-many-australians-working-overtime-long-hours/102353176

https://www.smartcompany.com.au/people-human-resources/human-resources/aussies-owed-106-billion-overtime/

https://www.smh.com.au/traveller/inspiration/australians-one-of-the-worst-at-taking-annual-leave-report-suggests-20150113-12mwh8.html

You may have read articles like the one below, which ranks Australia high on work-life balance. However for someone like you, who'll be working in the corporate/law sector, it's very misleading.   The score in the survey was based on these factors: minimum wage, sick leave, maternity leave, healthcare availability, average work hours, public happiness and LGBTQIA+ inclusivity.

Of those factors, only TWO are relevant to you.  You won't be on minimum wage or working average work hours, and sick leave and maternity leave are actually more generous in the UK than Australia.  So you're looking at only two possible benefits, 'healthcare availability' and 'public happiness'.

Even public healthcare doesn't compare all that well with the UK.  Medicare is our equivalent but you still have to pay for some services, unlike the NHS. For instance, dentists and spectacles aren't covered at all, you have to go private. Even a visit to a GP isnt free.  Waiting lists for hospital treatment are much the same as the NHS in most places. 

 https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/health/mental-health/australia-has-one-of-the-highest-rates-of-worklife-balance-in-the-world/news-story/8c2e410472dd829459ba953d087bd286

Of course, one option might be for you to use your legal qualifications to get a permanent skilled visa, then when you arrive in Australia, look for a change of career outside the corporate sector?

 

[InnerVoice]

15 hours ago, BendigoBoy said:

I had to chuckle at the line about work life balance. 71 hours I have been at my desk this week...

But 41 of those hours you spent on PiO  

[Loopylu]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

That's not necessarily true.  Don't get me wrong, unlike LoopyLu, I love Australia and have lived here for almost 40 years.  The lifestyle and attitudes suit me much better than the lifestyle and attitudes in the UK, and that may be the case for you too.  However the work-life balance is one of the major disadvantages of living here, if you work in the corporate or legal sectors. For tradies, teachers, medical staff it's different. But that's not you.

Firstly, the standard workday in many offices is 8.30 to 5.30, not 9 to 5.  So it's already a longer day, and then most people will be in the office considerably earlier or later -- because if you stick to those hours, you'll be regarded as clock-watching and get a bad performance review (I've known colleagues lose their bonuses over it, which is ridiculous considering they did their job and worked their full legally-contracted hours).  Also, to get time off for holidays (which are only 20 days a year), you have to go into battle with your boss (HR departments are always talking about encouraging staff to take leave, but that's all talk).  The articles below are both recent and older, showing it's been an ingrained culture in Australian offices for a long time:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-22/why-are-so-many-australians-working-overtime-long-hours/102353176

https://www.smartcompany.com.au/people-human-resources/human-resources/aussies-owed-106-billion-overtime/

https://www.smh.com.au/traveller/inspiration/australians-one-of-the-worst-at-taking-annual-leave-report-suggests-20150113-12mwh8.html

You may have read articles like the one below, which ranks Australia high on work-life balance. However for someone like you, who'll be working in the corporate/law sector, it's very misleading.   The score in the survey was based on these factors: minimum wage, sick leave, maternity leave, healthcare availability, average work hours, public happiness and LGBTQIA+ inclusivity.

Of those factors, only TWO are relevant to you.  You won't be on minimum wage or working average work hours, and sick leave and maternity leave are actually more generous in the UK than Australia.  So you're looking at only two possible benefits, 'healthcare availability' and 'public happiness'.

Even public healthcare doesn't compare all that well with the UK.  Medicare is our equivalent but you still have to pay for some services, unlike the NHS. For instance, dentists and spectacles aren't covered at all, you have to go private. Even a visit to a GP isnt free.  Waiting lists for hospital treatment are much the same as the NHS in most places. 

 https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/health/mental-health/australia-has-one-of-the-highest-rates-of-worklife-balance-in-the-world/news-story/8c2e410472dd829459ba953d087bd286

Of course, one option might be for you to use your legal qualifications to get a permanent skilled visa, then when you arrive in Australia, look for a change of career outside the corporate sector?

 

So you know my mind about Australia? Why do you always have to have a nasty dig at me all the time? No I don’t “love” Australia and it will never be my true home. As Quoll often says, it is just another first world country. It’s ok if all you care about is sunshine and big houses. 

[Marisawright]

8 minutes ago, Loopylu said:

So you know my mind about Australia? Why do you always have to have a nasty dig at me all the time? 

It wasn't meant as a dig.   You said you wouldn't be in Australia if you had a choice.  I'm just saying, that even though I feel just the opposite, I still agree with you about the poor work-life balance. 

Edited March 23 by Marisawright

[BendigoBoy]

33 minutes ago, InnerVoice said:

But 41 of those hours you spent on PiO  

Actually, about 45 of them I spent playing FFVII: Rebirth. But shush.

[wrussell]

I recall years ago advising a UK solicitor to lodge his own application and charging him a modest fee. After his visa was granted, he told me I had not charged enough and doubled the amount. BTW, solicitors in Australia may give migration advice, even if they know nothing about immigration.