Should criminals be deported?

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Over 500,000 New Zealand nationals live in Australia, and citizens of both countries have long been freely able to move between the two neighboring nations with few restrictions.

 

However, since the government in Canberra made a series of controversial changes to Australia's migration laws in 2014, almost 100 New Zealanders have been forcibly deported, with over 180 more currently being held in immigration detention centers.

 

The controversial changes to the Migration Act included measures allowing authorities to deport any foreign national who has served 12 months in prison. The measure can be applied retrospectively, meaning long-term residents can be deported for crimes committed decades ago.

 

The issue first hit Australian headlines earlier this month, when New Zealand born Junior Togatuki committed suicide in a New South Wales prison. Togatuki was facing deportation after serving a prison sentence for armed robbery. The 23-year-old had lived in Australia since he was four, and suffered schizophrenia.

 

This week another controversial case hit headlines, when Australian authorities announced they were deporting a mother of two.

 

According to public broadcaster SBS, forty-year-old New Zealand national Angela Russell has lived in Australia since she was three, and both her children are Australian citizens. She is set to be deported after three months behind bars on theft charges. Russell has a handful of minor past convictions that accumulated in meeting the 12-month threshold allowing authorities to deport her, according to Australian media.

 

Key has vowed to raise the issue of deportations with Australia's new Prime Minister, Malcom Turnbull, when they next meet.

 

“These are often people that have spent their entire life in Australia – went over there when they were very, very young – and it’s a little bit like the Australians are saying, 'We're going to pick and choose,'” he said.

 

Speaking to SBS, Joanne Cox from the New Zealander advocacy group OzKiwi said the rising deportation numbers are a serious concern.

 

“Once they’re on Christmas Island they have no support system, their families can’t access them, and they don’t have access to their lawyers,” Cox said.

 

Christmas Island is the site of one of Australia's notorious offshore detention facilities. The network of offshore sites are largely used to detain refugees and migrants that arrive undocumented in Australian waters, but now appear to be increasingly used to hold New Zealanders awaiting deportation.

 

The sites have been mired in allegations of rampant human rights abuses against detained migrants and refugees.

 

In late 2014, two U.N agencies issued statements almost simultaneously slamming offshore processing as inhumane and potentially in violation of international law.

 

First, the U.N. Committee on Torture announced it had uncovered brutal conditions in the processing camps on Manus Island and Nauru, including poor access to basic necessities such as healthcare for detainees.

 

“The combination of these harsh conditions, the protracted periods of closed detention and the uncertainty about the future reportedly creates serious physical and mental pain and suffering,” the report concluded.

 

The same day the report was released, Australia's handling of asylum seekers also drew fire from the United Nations High Commission for Refugees representative in Indonesia, Thomas Vargas.

 

According to Vargas, Australia's detention of asylum-seeking children violates one of the most widely ratified U.N. human rights treaties, the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

 

“The impact, the negative impact that it has on a child's life at the very beginning of their life, to put them in this type of horrible situation, you can just imagine the negative consequences that it has on their psyche, on their wellbeing," he said.

 

“Not only is it not humanitarian, but it's illegal under international law,” Vargas added.

 

This content was originally published by teleSUR at the following address:

"http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Australias-Migration-Crackdown-Hits-New-Zealanders-20150930-0002.html"

[Quinkla]

It should be dealt with on a case by case basis. People who have lived in Australia since early childhood should not be deported. People who have committed relatively minor crims should not be deported. But people who have moved to Australia as adults and engaged in a life of crime or who have committed major offences should be deported.

[Freckleface]

Yes I think criminals should be deported regardless of how long they have resided in Aust. My sympathies lie with the victims of crime rather than those who commit crimes.

[starlight7]

For serious crimes, if they do not have citizenship -yes. If they were born elsewhere and do have citizenship they should stay. For minor crimes- no but they should receive a warning.

[Bungo]

It should be dealt with on a case by case basis. People who have lived in Australia since early childhood should not be deported. People who have committed relatively minor crims should not be deported. But people who have moved to Australia as adults and engaged in a life of crime or who have committed major offences should be deported.

 

I think this is more or less where my thinking would end up.

 

On one hand, if I were a temporary resident in another country (which the New Zealanders are) I think I would expect to be deported if I committed a crime. It is a shame that the prospect of deportation was not enough to deter the individuals mentioned from repeatedly committing crimes. Then I thought of my older sibling who is not a British national but has lived in the UK since 6 months old, it is hard to imagine that she should be deported to a country she has been to three times should a minor offence be committed.

[Country vic]

PM Key should immediately remove PR and citizenship from all Australians living in NZ and deport all Australian criminals living in NZ, in line with how NZ'ers are treated here (since 2001.)

 

People often quote the principle 'no taxation without representation' they should add - unless you are from NZ. We are useful for paying taxes and rates but no good enough to vote or get anything in return. If I ever become sick, or can't work, I better call Alan Jones to put me on a chaff bag and take me out to sea and leave me there.

 

We are hearing a lot of rhetoric at the moment from ethnic, religious and racial groups that they are feeling marginalised, isolated, not included, unwelcome, no-one reaching out to them etc....etc.... these comments and complaints are being used as an excuse for serious crimes and violence.

 

My experience of abuse, isolation, marginalisation etc... while upsetting does not seem to me a reason to do bad things, unless you consider writing a 'strongly worded' letter to the local rag now and then as a bad thing. I don't even do that anymore, I got sick of the backlash.

 

I don't like my life but as people are very quick to point out (please don't bother I have heard it all before) if I don't like it I can go back where I come from, or, I should have researched the rules before I chose to come here.

 

I note that on the ABC this week they have been running programs about mental health, I haven't watched them because as an alien and non-person it's not relevant to me but I wonder if they have considered how depressing it can be to live somewhere knowing you will never have the same human rights other people living here take for granted.

[calNgary]

It should be dealt with on a case by case basis. People who have lived in Australia since early childhood should not be deported. People who have committed relatively minor crims should not be deported. But people who have moved to Australia as adults and engaged in a life of crime or who have committed major offences should be deported.

 

This is pretty much what id say too.

 

Cal x

[dmjg]

If you choose to break the law in a way that adds up to 12 months jail time, you have committed something fairly major, if you have a few sentences that add up to more than 12 months, you are showing you are not prepared to follow or respect the laws.

 

The victims are never represented properly when looking at the concequences of crime.

 

So remove the chance a non citizen can hurt any other resident again.

 

 

Id like to remove the chance any perpetrator of a crime could ever reoffend, but that would require crossing a line that cant be crossed.

[Gbye grey sky]

It should be dealt with on a case by case basis. People who have lived in Australia since early childhood should not be deported. People who have committed relatively minor crims should not be deported. But people who have moved to Australia as adults and engaged in a life of crime or who have committed major offences should be deported.

 

This seems the most reasonable approach. If a person has resided in Australia since they were a young child and subsequently developed criminal tendencies as an adult it is a bit rich for the country to take no responsibility for the way that person turned out and deport the offender to a country they may not even know. Slightly ironic too given the circumstances in which many Australians came to settle here.

[Lambethlad]

There are 6120 overseas born prisoners in jail in Oz. It costs $300 a day to keep them in jail. I make that about 670 million dollars a year it's costing Oz taxpayers. So I reckon when they are found guilty, don't put them in jail - march them out of the court and put them on the next plane home.

[starlight7]

I often think in Australia everything is on the side of the criminal and not the victim. Criminals cite their upbringing, their 'sad' lives etc etc - but what about the terrible lives their victims are now leading? Maybe it has something to do with the convict beginnings this inequality?

[Bungo]

PM Key should immediately remove PR and citizenship from all Australians living in NZ and deport all Australian criminals living in NZ, in line with how NZ'ers are treated here (since 2001.)

 

People often quote the principle 'no taxation without representation' they should add - unless you are from NZ. We are useful for paying taxes and rates but no good enough to vote or get anything in return. If I ever become sick, or can't work, I better call Alan Jones to put me on a chaff bag and take me out to sea and leave me there.

 

 

 

 

Well it might not make you feel any better, but there is plenty of taxation without representation. Europeans living in the UK for example. Plus all the Australian Permanent Residents and not to mention the temporary ones. All paying taxes but without the vote.

[Country vic]

There are 6120 overseas born prisoners in jail in Oz. It costs $300 a day to keep them in jail. I make that about 670 million dollars a year it's costing Oz taxpayers. So I reckon when they are found guilty, don't put them in jail - march them out of the court and put them on the next plane home.

 

Can you provide the numbers of Australian born criminals in jail in other counties and what that is costing their taxpayers.

[Que Sera Sera]

Maybe just maybe the threat of being deported MIGHT be the deterrent needed to stop people living a life of crime. If it isn't and they carry on the yes send them back from whence they came. Even the ones who have lived here all their lives, they aren't Citizens so are therefore guests of this Country and if they can't abide by the rules, then bye bye.

[Quinkla]

There are 6120 overseas born prisoners in jail in Oz. It costs $300 a day to keep them in jail. I make that about 670 million dollars a year it's costing Oz taxpayers. So I reckon when they are found guilty, don't put them in jail - march them out of the court and put them on the next plane home.

This is a terrible idea. It would effectively mean there would be no penalties for drug smugglers. It would mean international hitmen could come to Australia to take out their targets and if they are caught, they just get sent back home. Australian companies could perpetrate fraud with impugnity so long as their Directors were born overseas. International students would have little reason to comply with Australian laws, especially as their studies come to an end. Working holiday visa holders would find that stealing was likely to be more rewarding than working. Yes, prison costs money. But it also works as a deterrent.

[Gbye grey sky]

Maybe just maybe the threat of being deported MIGHT be the deterrent needed to stop people living a life of crime. If it isn't and they carry on the yes send them back from whence they came. Even the ones who have lived here all their lives, they aren't Citizens so are therefore guests of this Country and if they can't abide by the rules, then bye bye.

 

I arrived age 54 as a PR and will be eligible to apply for citizenship in 4 years from now. Assuming that I do that and committed a crime afterwards I would remain eligible to remain in Australia as I am a citizen. Someone who has lived here since they were a baby, perhaps with children and extended family, but not eligible for citizenship (or has never applied) would be deported to a country they may never have even visited potentially with no means to support themselves an having no eligibility for support in that country. For these people this seems like double jeopardy to me and seems particularly unjust when compared with the first example above.

[Que Sera Sera]

I arrived age 54 as a PR and will be eligible to apply for citizenship in 4 years from now. Assuming that I do that and committed a crime afterwards I would remain eligible to remain in Australia as I am a citizen. Someone who has lived here since they were a baby, perhaps with children and extended family, but not eligible for citizenship (or has never applied) would be deported to a country they may never have even visited potentially with no means to support themselves an having no eligibility for support in that country. For these people this seems like double jeopardy to me and seems particularly unjust when compared with the first example above.

If they don't commit a bad crime they have nothing to worry about. It's as basic as that to me. Obviously minor crimes and crimes committed by juveniles would be a different story but if you've committed a serious crime or a succession of crimes then you've given up the rights to be a guest here.

[Skani]

Can you provide the numbers of Australian born criminals in jail in other counties and what that is costing their taxpayers.

 

The last figure I remember was 313 Australian citizens - although quite a few were born elsewhere and were being held in their birth countries (particularly China and Vietnam)- where their crimes were committed.

Very few would be as costly as Australian prisons although I don't think this should be a factor in the treatment of trans national criminals.

[Parley]

There are 6120 overseas born prisoners in jail in Oz. It costs $300 a day to keep them in jail. I make that about 670 million dollars a year it's costing Oz taxpayers. So I reckon when they are found guilty, don't put them in jail - march them out of the court and put them on the next plane home.

 

They got off scot free if you do that.

No they should serve their sentence and then be kicked out of the country.

[HappyHeart]

Agree with case by case. A lot of people make mistakes. Then never make them again. What use the criminal justice system if they get punished twice? A citizen of a country should have equal rights as any other citizen. Up to a point.

It shouldn't be sentence based because we know the sentence does not fit the crime. Sex offenders don't all serve sentences.

I would support deportation for category 1 crimes such as sex offences, child sex offences, murder and other violent crime against persons.

[Country vic]

The last figure I remember was 313 Australian citizens - although quite a few were born elsewhere and were being held in their birth countries (particularly China and Vietnam)- where their crimes were committed.

Very few would be as costly as Australian prisons although I don't think this should be a factor in the treatment of trans national criminals.

 

So Australia kicks out overseas born criminals but other countries get to keep criminal Australians... I suggest reciprocity is more appropriate.

 

In the case of Australia and NZ I would expect Australians who live in NZ to be treated the same as NZ'ers are treated here, at the moment Australians who move to NZ get a fair deal, NZers who come here are treated like dirt and very few Australians realise it.

 

I sometimes get locals ask me if I would stand for the local council, I used to try to explain that not only can I never stand for election I can never vote, I couldn't get the realities of the situation through to them so now I just say I am to busy, it's easier.

 

From time to time to time the situation of NZers living here comes to public attention, not for long though.

 

The last time I know of was after serious flooding (or was it bushfires) fortunately I was not affected. The government ordered a payment of $30k to be paid to those seriously affected, it was done via Centrelink, then they realised some of the victims were NZers and we're not entitled. On that occasion the NZ PM talked to the Australian PM (Julia Gillard I think) and an order in council (or something similar) was passed and the NZers received the payment.

 

Even something as innocuous as a seniors card is not available to NZers.

 

There is no way of knowing what might happen in the future that will adversely affect NZers, it's very worrying.

 

I sometimes joke I can be alive or dead, nothing inbetween. As long as I am fit and well I don't need health care, or anything else, and I can work, if I am dead I will be dead so I won't care, anything else ........

[Skani]

So Australia kicks out overseas born criminals but other countries get to keep criminal Australians...

 

 

No. Other nationals can be deported AFTER serving their sentence in Australia. Just as Australian nationals can be returned to Australia after serving their time in a foreign gaol.

[Parley]

So Australia kicks out overseas born criminals but other countries get to keep criminal Australians... I suggest reciprocity is more appropriate.

 

In the case of Australia and NZ I would expect Australians who live in NZ to be treated the same as NZ'ers are treated here, at the moment Australians who move to NZ get a fair deal, NZers who come here are treated like dirt and very few Australians realise it.

 

I sometimes get locals ask me if I would stand for the local council, I used to try to explain that not only can I never stand for election I can never vote, I couldn't get the realities of the situation through to them so now I just say I am to busy, it's easier.

 

From time to time to time the situation of NZers living here comes to public attention, not for long though.

 

The last time I know of was after serious flooding (or was it bushfires) fortunately I was not affected. The government ordered a payment of $30k to be paid to those seriously affected, it was done via Centrelink, then they realised some of the victims were NZers and we're not entitled. On that occasion the NZ PM talked to the Australian PM (Julia Gillard I think) and an order in council (or something similar) was passed and the NZers received the payment.

 

Even something as innocuous as a seniors card is not available to NZers.

 

There is no way of knowing what might happen in the future that will adversely affect NZers, it's very worrying.

 

I sometimes joke I can be alive or dead, nothing inbetween. As long as I am fit and well I don't need health care, or anything else, and I can work, if I am dead I will be dead so I won't care, anything else ........

 

The issue with Nzers has been well documented. They have been a huge burden on the Australian taxpayer.

 

While the original intention and practice was recipricol benefits in each others countries.

In practice it ended up being something like 95% of Nzers moving to Australia compared to only 5% of Australians moving to NZ. Actually it may have even been more skewed.

So ended up being a massive impost on us whereas hardly any Australians move to NZ so little benefit in return.