Quinkla Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I know 99.9% of people follow the procedures set out in the advice (note: advice, not requirements). This thread was about what happens to the 0.1% of people who don't. You have spread misinformation about passports being seized and people not being allowed to leave the country. This is not based on evidence or law, it is just based on what you would like to happen. It is not helpful. And I don't agree with your characterisation of people who are acting unconventionally but within the law as point scoring or gaming the system. We are supposed to be "young and free". That means we can do what we want as long as other people aren't harmed and no laws are broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABG Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 You do not need a valid Australian passport to prove your citizenship. Actually, the DIBP database will link your Australian citizenship to your overseas passport initially. A check on that passport in Vevo will show Aussie citizenship. And yes, you can rock up with an expired passport and expect to leave - although without a valid travel document for admission to the country at the far end then an airline would not give you a boarding pass. Australia Home Affairs has this to say on the matter: “As an Australian citizen you must always leave and enter Australia on an Australian passport”.So Parley was right, he should never have been allowed to leave. I have South African dual nationality and there it’s a criminal offence to enter/leave SA on a foreign passport with a punishment of up to 12 months in jail plus a fine! I commend the OP for trying to help his son out. I’m similarly aged to the son and my folks would laugh at me and expect me sort it out on my own. You make the mess you clean it up was a mantra in my household[emoji23] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, ABG said: Australia Home Affairs has this to say on the matter: “As an Australian citizen you must always leave and enter Australia on an Australian passport”. So Parley was right, he should never have been allowed to leave. I have South African dual nationality and there it’s a criminal offence to enter/leave SA on a foreign passport with a punishment of up to 12 months in jail plus a fine! I commend the OP for trying to help his son out. I’m similarly aged to the son and my folks would laugh at me and expect me sort it out on my own. You make the mess you clean it up was a mantra in my household The law in South Africa is not the same as the law in Australia so that doesn't really help anyone. Australia Home Affairs (whoever they are) can say what they want, but it is only advisory. The law is interpreted by courts, not by government departments. If you can point me to legislation that empowers the Border Force to stop an Australian citizen from leaving if they don't show an Australian passport then I will happily step back. But I don't believe such a law exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABG Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Quinkla said: The law in South Africa is not the same as the law in Australia so that doesn't really help anyone. Australia Home Affairs (whoever they are) can say what they want, but it is only advisory. The law is interpreted by courts, not by government departments. If you can point me to legislation that empowers the Border Force to stop an Australian citizen from leaving if they don't show an Australian passport then I will happily step back. But I don't believe such a law exists. Home Affairs = Australian Government Department of Home Affairs.... Whilst Australia has not criminalised entering/leaving on a foreign passport like South Africa, its pretty clear from the government department responsible for matters relating to citizens,that Australian citizens are meant to enter/leave on an Australian passport. I'm not inclined to trawl through legislation to justify this - I'm happy to take it at face value. If you recommend going against government advice, good for you. Personally, if Dept of Home Affairs says Australian citizens must enter/leave the country on their Australian passport, then that's the advice I'm going to go with. Not the advice of an anonymous person on a forum who is challenging this because there may/may not be a piece of legislation showing that the border agency has the power to stop an Australian citizen leaving the country, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 If Australia has not criminalised entering/leaving Australia on a foreign passport, then it is legal to do so and you cannot be stopped if you are doing so. Personally, I do follow the advice/guidance from the Australian Government on travelling overseas. I find it saves hassle and delay. But this thread is about what happens to people who can't/won't follow this advice and the answer to that is about the law, not about guidance/authoritarian desires/what South Africa does. And incidentally, although I tend to behave quite conventionally, I will defend the right of unconventional people to exercise their full rights as given by the law and the constitution. To me, that is what embracing Australian values is all about. The state belongs to us, not vice versa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTA Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 No one is encouraging people to leave and enter without an Australian passport. In fact I would advise against it to avoid problems like this. It also is not good for home security, and better for everyone if guidelines are followed. However, it is not against the law, and if you do make a mistake like this, it is your right by law to enter Australia without a passport. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete fish Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 On 10/06/2018 at 06:24, snifter said: The problem appears to be the person concerned isn't/wasn't aware of the problem as they are camping in North Wales somewhere and not got a way to find out about all this. But yes, once they are aware hopefully they can get an emergency passport. However, it could well be they are stuffed there as the Aus High Commission is closed on Mon 11 June for the Queen's birthday public holiday. They will re open too late for the person who is meant to depart the UK on Tuesday as I understand it. On 10/06/2018 at 06:24, snifter said: The problem appears to be the person concerned isn't/wasn't aware of the problem as they are camping in North Wales somewhere and not got a way to find out about all this. But yes, once they are aware hopefully they can get an emergency passport. However, it could well be they are stuffed there as the Aus High Commission is closed on Mon 11 June for the Queen's birthday public holiday. They will re open too late for the person who is meant to depart the UK on Tuesday as I understand it. Thanks Snifter, but that is good info. What were your circumstances for getting the Emergency passport, (sorry, if too personal don't respond), from reading the High Commission webpage we assumed an emergency passport would only be in a serious case such as bereavement and they would need supporting evidence as proof. In any case he will have to contact the High Commission if he gets turned away by the airline, which from the previous posts is highly likely, and explain his case. Thanks again to everyone who offered advice and comment, it has all been well received and I guess we will find out in about 24hrs if he gets the flight, or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKC Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 On 10/06/2018 at 13:12, ramot said: It's the random security checks that get me. We travel quite frequently and very rarely do we get through security without either my husband or me being stopped for a "random" check. Obviously both of of us in our 70's must fit some sort of profile? Hit the jackpot a couple of weeks ago flying back from Sydney, both of us checked, I was obviously very suspicious as I was checked top to bottom, shoes, bag opened the lot. Had to laugh once when yet again I was chosen for the full works flying back from Heathrow, when several other passengers of dubious nationality also in the queue were totally ignored. Easy target or what? They are completely random, it's probably just the nth person in the queue or a random nth person this time, xth person next time or something. I wonder if the scanner machine flashes a light every so many people on a random pattern or something, so the security staff know who to pick? We flew from Sydney to Tullamarine and then from Avalon back to Sydney last year, and on both occasions our eldest daughter was selected for the random search/swab. She was an 11 year old tiny little girl, nothing remotely suspicious about her at all, but it randomly picked her both times. The airport staff did tell me it was completely random, unless there is someone they have suspicions about, and that I wasn't to worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 36 minutes ago, LKC said: They are completely random, it's probably just the nth person in the queue or a random nth person this time, xth person next time or something. I wonder if the scanner machine flashes a light every so many people on a random pattern or something, so the security staff know who to pick? We flew from Sydney to Tullamarine and then from Avalon back to Sydney last year, and on both occasions our eldest daughter was selected for the random search/swab. She was an 11 year old tiny little girl, nothing remotely suspicious about her at all, but it randomly picked her both times. The airport staff did tell me it was completely random, unless there is someone they have suspicions about, and that I wasn't to worry. My husband was an airline pilot and I flew as a passenger on his flights at least 7/8 time a year mostly long haul for 10 years, and since moving to Australia 15 years ago we fly to U.K. Every year plus several domestic flights and no one can convince me it's only random. They pick who looks a soft target whenever possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammygirl Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Mm my sons both in their 20s with beards and backpacks always seem to get stopped. That is unless they are with me! Maybe I look like I would cause trouble oh says he wouldn’t mess with a confident looking middle aged ( maybe I am a tad older!) woman. Just not worth the hassle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 hours ago, rammygirl said: Mm my sons both in their 20s with beards and backpacks always seem to get stopped. That is unless they are with me! Maybe I look like I would cause trouble oh says he wouldn’t mess with a confident looking middle aged ( maybe I am a tad older!) woman. Just not worth the hassle Blimey I’m a reasonably confident middle aged/elderly woman and they always seem to “randomly“ pick me! Canberra always think I have explosives and swab my bag. I’ve had more x rays (or whatever those body scans are) at Heathrow than for anything medical. Maybe it’s the knitting needles in the bag that freaks them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete fish Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Quoll said: Blimey I’m a reasonably confident middle aged/elderly woman and they always seem to “randomly“ pick me! Canberra always think I have explosives and swab my bag. I’ve had more x rays (or whatever those body scans are) at Heathrow than for anything medical. Maybe it’s the knitting needles in the bag that freaks them. Careful Quoll just in case those ex words set off an alarm !! I get picked out on every internal flight and the last time from Perth to Heathrow, and I dared to suggest they needn't read out the search card as I knew it off by heart. That cost me an extra long search ! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABG Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 So how did it all pan out? Did OP son try convince airport staff to let him travel without a visa, or did he get emergency passport? Curious to find out [emoji16] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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